Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Dave1987]

There should be a fine for people who compare aircraft to trains on this forum. £10 a pop, fixed penalty.

One presumes you are all knowledgeable about pilots as well? :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed. There appears to be this bizarre idea that supporting guards on trains is somehow a left wing position - in fact a communist position given some of the rhetoric I hear on here.

Perhaps you should look to the personal political agenda espoused by the past and present leaders of the RMT to see where such ideas are thought possible.

 

[Bishopstone]

Yes having the prospect of a job for life is a totally ludicrous idea, and being in a position where you don't know if you will have a job in 6 months time is far far better...... NOT!! Mortgage companies want proof of a stable income before they will lend for you to buy a house, so are you saying that no one apart from the super rich is entitled to own their own home?

Mortgage lenders require proof that, at the time of your application, you can afford the loan repayments from income less outgoings. You are charged interest on the loan to cover the risk, which the lender is taking on, that over the lifetime of the loan you will become unable to repay it, for whatever reason, and the value of their security (your house) has fallen below the level of the debt. (And part of the interest charge is bank profit, of course.)

No lender requires you to prove you have a job for life, and if there was such a requirement, the mortgage lenders would no longer be in business, because nobody can prove that.

Despite the growth in fixed term contracts and self-employment, the number of mortgage approvals is quite healthy. Lots of people can't afford to buy a home because house prices are too high relative to earnings, but that's a different matter.

There might be lots of good arguments for keeping guards indefinitely, but access to the mortgage market is not one of them.

 

[Dave1987]

Well I suppose one can only hope the Lib Dems or Labour can pull their s*** together before the next election to sort out all these franchises and make it compulsory for their to be two members of staff on each train.

 

[Don King]

Perhaps you should look to the personal political agenda espoused by the past and present leaders of the RMT to see where such ideas are thought possible.

So presumably then the RMT supporting random drugs tests, unobtrusive monitoring, guard's offices inside trains, revenue collection and protection and working with the BTP, that all these positions are also communist?

 

[FordFocus]

The transport sec at conference and during an interview said we all supported Corbyn and that was what the strike was about.

Mr Grayling doesn't know an awful lot about the railway so I take his comments with a pinch of salt. He wanted a driver punished as his train was wrong routed, Grayling said it was a dangerous situation (it wasn't) but it later transpired it was a planning and diagramming error.

I suspect he may move to something more akin to his previous skill set, media and broadcasting to be replaced by the next SoS who again knows very little.

 

[Harbornite]

Well I suppose one can only hope the Lib Dems or Labour can pull their s*** together before the next election to sort out all these franchises and make it compulsory for their to be two members of staff on each train.

Unfortunately for the guards, I somehow doubt that this will happen. Labour didn't try to get rid of DOO between 1997 or 2010 so why would they bother?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So presumably then the RMT supporting random drugs tests, unobtrusive monitoring, guard's offices inside trains, revenue collection and protection and working with the BTP, that all these positions are also communist?

Those are matters that are worthy of a trades union, no one denies that. But you still have to persuade me that there are no "shall we be kind and say extreme left wing" views held by the leadership of the RMT that can see the same type of underlying political fight against a hated Conservative government that occurred between the NUM and the Heath government well before the 1979 advent of the Thatcher government.

 

[infobleep]

And 75% of the time IME I have to tell the guard that there is disruption as they have no clue or haven't read their phone/pager. Also numerous times I have been delayed by 1-2 minutes at several stations in a row by guards not being able to open doors due to issuing tickets on stopping trains and departures have been delayed as passengers on the platform stop guards as they are closing doors to ask questions about other trains which the guard usually has no clue about. Once delay repay is done by minute those minutes will add up and they already cause knock on delays and missed connections. 2nd person on the train I have no issue and support where possible but not if it means my train gets delayed or if they operate the doors. Also this whole Corbynesque/Union Dream Job For Life attitude is ludicrous. If everyone had jobs for life there would be no incentive for performance and no promotion and more unemployment as companies went broke as they couldn't afford to sustain unproductive staff.
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And in any other job those guards that don't interact with passengers would be disciplined but not on the railway. Guards giving incorrect advice and gateline staff such as at Paddington who don't know basic ticket restrictions would be retrained and if they didn't improve fired, but not on the railway. It's a joke.

So whose fault is it that guards or gate line staff are not retrained? Whose fault is it that some are not trained up to the right standard to begin with?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[FordFocus]

Those are matters that are worthy of a trades union, no one denies that. But you still have to persuade me that there are no "shall we be kind and say extreme left wing" views held by the leadership of the RMT that can see the same type of underlying political fight against a hated Conservative government that occurred between the NUM and the Heath government well before the 1979 advent of the Thatcher government.

In my experience a lot of union membership doesn't care about politics. They are more interested in the workplace. Some have opted out of the political fund, some in my union are Tory members but recognise the historical link between unions and the labour movement.

I still don't get why you want to flood this topic with events that happened in the 70s and 80s and try to tie them into a topic about driver only trains.. Can you not take your political discussion into the General Discussion part of the forum where it would be more appropriate?

 

[Carlisle]

They have many issues and large numbers of DOO drivers leave to go to freight or regional / intercity passenger jobs to get away from it. Many DOO depots are starter depots where drivers go to get their job, with large staff turnover.

DOO has very little to do with it, Inner suburban work has always been less popular for a variety of reasons and in order to get a drivers job more quickly many BR trainees had to do a few years at one of those less popular depots that were nearly always short staffed even when most trains were still guarded

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hi Paul,

You don't have to be a Jeremy Corbyn fan to believe that 2 guaranteed safety trained people on a train are better than 1. You seem to consistently get these 2 issues muddled up, so I just wanted to clear that up for you.

How amiss of me...

Incidentally, were there not two guaranteed safety staff on the train at James Street station in October 2011 when 16 year old Georgia Varley met her demise when Christopher McGee was the guard on that train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my experience a lot of union membership doesn't care about politics. They are more interested in the workplace. Some have opted out of the political fund, some in my union are Tory members but recognise the historical link between unions and the labour movement.

I still don't get why you want to flood this topic with events that happened in the 70s and 80s and try to tie them into a topic about driver only trains.. Can you not take your political discussion into the General Discussion part of the forum where it would be more appropriate?

My comments are valid to this thread as no one has yet convinced me with any authority that the RMT leadership are not using the series of disputes that they are involved with as anything but a politically motivated fight against the DfT, the Conservative government, rail privatisation, etc.

 

[09065]

I believe the SWT signalman said 'Kiss me Hardy' or something like that

You mean the half-dozen employed on the Island Line?

 

[Don King]

DOO has very little to do with it, Inner suburban work has always been less popular for a variety of reasons and in order to get a drivers job more quickly many BR trainees had to do a few years at one of those less popular depots that were nearly always short staffed even when most trains were still guarded

DOO is a major part of it. The bulk of drivers I know who leave such depots cite DOO as a major reason. They actively hate DOO, many have been threatened and assaulted and worry they will be jailed now when drunks jump on the side.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How amiss of me...

Incidentally, were there not two guaranteed safety staff on the train at James Street station in October 2011 when 16 year old Georgia Varley met her demise when Christopher McGee was the guard on that train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My comments are valid to this thread as no one has yet convinced me with any authority that the RMT leadership are not using the series of disputes that they are involved with as anything but a politically motivated fight against the DfT, the Conservative government, rail privatisation, etc.

There is no evidence to suggest under DOO she would have lived. In fact I recall reading that if the guard had closed his local door and followed the dispatch to the letter, she still would not have survived. Had the service been DOO Driver would have closed doors, looked back and taken power. She was not on the side of the train (nor even in the vicinity of the platform) at the time the doors were shut. She only appeared between the time when the guard did a further door release and close as per unofficial Merseyrail custom, returned to his local door then when he gave two. The driver would have closed the doors and gone and no one would even know until the next train found her.

What about West Wickham, Huntingdon or Hayes and Harlington? Why did the superior CCTV dispatch with no reckless guards lead to such incidents?

 

[Robertj21a]

DOO is a major part of it. The bulk of drivers I know who leave such depots cite DOO as a major reason. They actively hate DOO, many have been threatened and assaulted and worry they will be jailed now when drunks jump on the side.

How are these drivers being assaulted ? I know some Thameslink (DOO) drivers whose main concern seems to be the sheer hassle of all the stops, and the general problems of going through London.

 

[Don King]

How are these drivers being assaulted ? I know some Thameslink (DOO) drivers whose main concern seems to be the sheer hassle of all the stops, and the general problems of going through London.

Spitting, threats, attacks when passcoms are pulled, assualts dealing with drunks onboard and so on. No guard to deal with any of this, so the driver is expected to do so. Assaults on DOO drivers are commonplace.

 

[Robertj21a]

Spitting, threats, attacks when passcoms are pulled, assualts dealing with drunks onboard and so on. No guard to deal with any of this, so the driver is expected to do so. Assaults on DOO drivers are commonplace.

Not disputing what you say at all but can you give an area/route so that I can better understand. Thanks.

 

[Don King]

Not disputing what you say at all but can you give an area/route so that I can better understand. Thanks.

The Thames Valley and South London area particularly. Not familiar with the lines into Essex or from Kings Cross, but I would imagine it is somewhat similar.

Presumably driver assaults are lower on SPTE services where there is a ticket examiner to deal with potential flashpoints or report anti social behaviour before it all kicks off.

 

[Robertj21a]

The Thames Valley and South London area particularly. Not familiar with the lines into Essex or from Kings Cross, but I would imagine it is somewhat similar.

Presumably driver assaults are lower on SPTE services where there is a ticket examiner to deal with potential flashpoints or report anti social behaviour before it all kicks off.

Thanks for that. I wonder if the TOCs, or Unions, have the figures analysing the type of assaults, by route ? - for some reason I had assumed that Thameslink might have the biggest problems, but I'm not now sure if that's going to be the case.

 

[Mintona]

Thanks for that. I wonder if the TOCs, or Unions, have the figures analysing the type of assaults, by route ? - for some reason I had assumed that Thameslink might have the biggest problems, but I'm not now sure if that's going to be the case.

Not disputing what you say at all but can you give an area/route so that I can better understand. Thanks.

Drivers aren't allowed to leave the cab at Bat & Ball station. One driver was assaulted when he went to reset a passcom and taken to hospital about 3 years ago. Since then, if a passcom is pulled at Bat & Ball the driver must call control and wait for BTP to arrive before he can leave the cab to reset it.

 

[Carlisle]

Spitting, threats, attacks when passcoms are pulled, assualts dealing with drunks onboard and so on. No guard to deal with any of this, so the driver is expected to do so. Assaults on DOO drivers are commonplace.

Thats a far bigger problem to crack than merely abolishing DOO ,tragically a fair number of people have been seriously assaulted or even worse on many guarded trains too, unless your intending to put several bouncers on each known problem train

 

[AlterEgo]

One presumes you are all knowledgeable about pilots as well? :roll:

I have a good lay person's industry knowledge plus I have a licence (suspended due to medical), so... But anyway, why would I need to be? This is a railway forum! Talk about trains, not cabin crew and pilots!

The aviation business and railways are so far different from one another that every comparison is absolutely unhelpful.

 

[gtr driver]

I'm not literally talking about air travel. It's using an allegory of sorts to make a point.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not literally talking about air travel. It's using an allegory of sorts to make a point.

Of course, but even so, the allegory doesn't work, as it requires people to assume that what you say is equally applicable to pilots and train crew.

 

[Phil.]

Well said that man.

That's irony - isn't it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

She only appeared between the time when the guard did a further door release and close as per unofficial Merseyrail custom, returned to his local door then when he gave two. The driver would have closed the doors and gone and no one would even know until the next train found her.

Here I freely admit to bowing to your far greater of knowledge of operating procedures. I have emboldened a part of your posting and ask you to inform me of the difference between "unofficial Merseyrail custom" and the normally accepted official position in such circumstances.

 

[embers25]

So whose fault is it that guards or gate line staff are not retrained? Whose fault is it that some are not trained up to the right standard to begin with?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

The RMT and other unions in part as if any member of rail staff is disciplined the RMT or other union get involved to defend their comrade no matter how wrong they are and so most of the time it's not worth the hassle for a TOC to deal with. Also Paddington staff for example could be retrained over and over and they'd still make everything up as they know best...a problem a fair few guards suffer from too. I can't think of any other industry where staff make up the rules to suit themselves more that the rail industry. As I said earlier we'd all rather have 2 people on a train but cancelling it because the guard is sick is ludicrous if it can run DOO. I'm sure the unions are already planning ways to disrupt DOO by having drivers walk each train to lock doors even when not necessary just to make a point.

Also in most jobs the job gets harder with extra responsibility over time whereas a drivers job just gets easier and easier with new technology. It is still ludicrous that tube drivers have to sit in cabs to watch trains drive themselves "for safety" whilst driverless trains run quite happily in other countries and don't cause mass deaths.
Despite all the arguments, still no-one has provided cold hard data (not ad-hoc examples such as watford where if there had been no guard it would have made no difference anyway) to back up DOO is more dangerous. In theory it may be but if it was in reality and could be proven don't you think the RMT would have produced those stats weeks ago.

I also agree with GTR challenging the strike as if you have accepted the contract you shouldn't be able to strike over it...politics is all it is now.

 

[Dave1987]

I have a good lay person's industry knowledge plus I have a licence (suspended due to medical), so... But anyway, why would I need to be? This is a railway forum! Talk about trains, not cabin crew and pilots!

The aviation business and railways are so far different from one another that every comparison is absolutely unhelpful.

Well you talk about my job as if you know it better than I do. BTW aviation is my passion so I do know what I'm talking about.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well you talk about my job as if you know it better than I do. BTW aviation is my passion so I do know what I'm talking about.

Dave, I don't. What I do is ask questions, or cite from safety reports. Also, unable to tell if the second sentence was sarcasm.

 

[Dave1987]

The RMT and other unions in part as if any member of rail staff is disciplined the RMT or other union get involved to defend their comrade no matter how wrong they are and so most of the time it's not worth the hassle for a TOC to deal with. Also Paddington staff for example could be retrained over and over and they'd still make everything up as they know best...a problem a fair few guards suffer from too. I can't think of any other industry where staff make up the rules to suit themselves more that the rail industry. As I said earlier we'd all rather have 2 people on a train but cancelling it because the guard is sick is ludicrous if it can run DOO. I'm sure the unions are already planning ways to disrupt DOO by having drivers walk each train to lock doors even when not necessary just to make a point.

Also in most jobs the job gets harder with extra responsibility over time whereas a drivers job just gets easier and easier with new technology. It is still ludicrous that tube drivers have to sit in cabs to watch trains drive themselves "for safety" whilst driverless trains run quite happily in other countries and don't cause mass deaths.
Despite all the arguments, still no-one has provided cold hard data (not ad-hoc examples such as watford where if there had been no guard it would have made no difference anyway) to back up DOO is more dangerous. In theory it may be but if it was in reality and could be proven don't you think the RMT would have produced those stats weeks ago.

I also agree with GTR challenging the strike as if you have accepted the contract you shouldn't be able to strike over it...politics is all it is now.

What trains do you drive the? You must be a driver to make such a brazen post like that