Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[embers25]

Yes, I'm sure ASLEF Train Drivers on £50k+ per year, in many locations having not seen a strike for over two decades, crying throughout their 36 hour 4 day week, hate their Union too for the reasons you mention...

and despite these excellent conditions ASLEF still wanted to strike (if they had only gone about it properly )
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Yet you point to the buses as being infiltrated and 'ruined' by the unions - in my experience since deregulation in particular bus drivers generally have pretty poor wages, working conditions, morale and rosters having had the lot forced down by the so called bus bandits in the 90s so it seems to me they're long overdue some improvement.

Actually several I know well were fine prior to unions sneaking in and now instead the unions are forcing strike action by citing false dreams of massive unrealistic wage rises that if instigated will lead to further service cuts or a complete operator pull out and are totally unrealistic. Bus drivers joined the company and happily accepted their terms and now thanks to unions all of a sudden they want massively more.

 

[LowLevel]

In any case once again the great golden arrow that is GSMR is knackered again and can't track trains because of or alongside a train describer fault. It seems to be very inventive at coming up with new ways of going wrong!

 

[Antman]

So we bring flight attendants into the equation and get told that isn't relevant yet you bringing bus conductors is?
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Same as the principal of why are flight attendants necessary yet guards are considered expendable.

Oh come on, one staff member on a bus or train is quite different to suggesting the same for an aircraft.
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Roads in urban areas tend to be safer to walk along at night than third rail railways because they don't have 750 volts within touching distance.

So you're quite happy with DOO on lines without a third rail?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If Labour were pushing through DCO, the RMT and ASLEF (who you seem to ignore) resistance would be exactly the same. While you might be obsessed with the RMT leadership's ideology and Jeremy Corbyn, such things are irrelevant to the vast majority of RMT members that I know on the ground. Even after 400+ pages of people arguing for and against DCO, highlighting all the issues involved, you're still just pushing your silly, self indulgent interpretation of this dispute, trolling people you randomly perceive to be communists... :roll:

What has ASLEF done so far on this particular thread that should concern me in the same way as the RMT union leadership has been perceived to be the prime movers.

With regards to your later "throwaway" comments about trolling people that I randomly perceive to be communists, are you saying that I have been mistaken about Mick Cash and that he holds totally opposite political views to his predesessor, Bob Crow. If you believe that the political beliefs of the senior personage of a trades union holds does not allow them to colour their judgement in any industrial action, then you have never read the wording of some sections of the press releases issued by the RMT during this dispute.

Perhaps, being born in 1945, I was in my 30s in the 1970s when the Trades Union movement were endeavouring to have more power than any elected government and anarchy was never too far removed from the realities of life. You will most probably consider Derek "Red Robbo" Robinson, the bête noire of the British car industry, to have had no Communist leanings. Many on this thread were not born or were only children in the 1970s and cannot comment on an adult perception of the industrial disputes of that time period in the same way that I can and it is the memories of that period that immediately relate to the current style of industrial disputes in the rail industry.

I have no need to make sweeping statements about the RMT as their very own 21st century press releases, couched in a language of the 1970's time period that is meaningless in the 21st century, speak for themselves.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't forget that a number of the "red routes" will be going over to LO at some point - do any LO trains have guards, even if it's just peak time only services?

Nope. No guards on LO.

 

[HH]

TfL have a very clear policy on LO - no Guards but lots of station staff (at least in comparison to LSE TOCs).

 

[Dave1987]

Oh come on, one staff member on a bus or train is quite different to suggesting the same for an aircraft.

Why exactly? Flight attendants are no more highly trained than a guard. If a guard is optional why aren't flight attendants?

 

[47271]

Charles Horton on Radio 4 Today this morning, a short clip here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04bnz5r

 

[Dave1987]

and despite these excellent conditions ASLEF still wanted to strike (if they had only gone about it properly )
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Actually several I know well were fine prior to unions sneaking in and now instead the unions are forcing strike action by citing false dreams of massive unrealistic wage rises that if instigated will lead to further service cuts or a complete operator pull out and are totally unrealistic. Bus drivers joined the company and happily accepted their terms and now thanks to unions all of a sudden they want massively more.

I'm gathering you are just anti union for the sake of being anti union. I'm gathering you don't believe train drivers are worth the wages we get paid? Because ASLEF have fought for that. Gather you were quite happy for the workforce at Grangemouth in Scotland to be sold down the river with their pensions destroyed? The union got the best settlement possible for them. What about all the working conditions that protect drivers like the maximum movement of spare turns? Ow those nasty horrible unions have made sure drivers are able to guarantee what time they will be home to see their kids or are we not entitled to a family life in your eyes?

 

[Tetchytyke]

These are the same sort of safety arguments put forward years ago about keeping conductors on buses.

That noted socialist Boris Johnson put conductors on his new buses for safety reasons, because it was considered unsafe to have an open platform without someone there to monitor it.

What was your point again?

 

[Antman]

That noted socialist Boris Johnson put conductors on his new buses for safety reasons, because it was considered unsafe to have an open platform without someone there to monitor it.

What was your point again?

My point had nothing to do with Boris Johnson, but anyway those conductors didn't last long did they?

 

[infobleep]

A road and a live railway with third rail is a bit of difference.

So they took conductors off the buses and then the buses started to get vandalised. Suddenly they had to pay lots of money for CCTV, which hadn't been required previously. Well so someone I know said to me.

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[Tetchytyke]

but anyway those conductors didn't last long did they?

All buses running with the open platform still have the conductors, because safety.

 

[JamesTT]

All buses running with the open platform still have the conductors, because safety.

But if the new routemaster bus doesn't have a conductor it still runs but the rear door is kept shut

 

[infobleep]

Someone said to me that Southern lost their court case over this strike? Is that correct and if so did they have many costs to pay as a result?

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[tony6499]

Someone said to me that Southern lost their court case over this strike? Is that correct and if so did they have many costs to pay as a result?

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They didn't go , it was just more lies from Horton & co to try and weaken the staffs resolve

 

[XDM]

They didn't go , it was just more lies from Horton & co to try and weaken the staffs resolve

They didn't go for a last minute injunction but I am told Southern's official letter to RMT reserves them the right later to sue RMT for the damage they, and their passengers, have suffered. It could cost RMT members far more per head than the £14 it cost ASLEF active members in the high court earlier this year.
Excellent that someone linked to Charles Horton's BBC Radio 4 interview today. It is only a snippet. I urge everyone to listen to the full interview. He did a great job. Very relaxed,very wise.The pressure is off him now that some guards are back at work and much more mileage can be run DOO. But we will have to wait till December for the full fruits of his work to be shown,when trains needn't be cancelled because a second staff member has taken an away day. But watch out for dirty tricks from a few driven RMT supporters.

 

[Skimble19]

They didn't go for a last minute injunction but I am told Southern's official letter to RMT reserves them the right later to sue RMT for the damage they, and their passengers, have suffered. It could cost RMT members far more per head than the £14 it cost ASLEF active members in the high court earlier this year.
Excellent that someone linked to Charles Horton's BBC Radio 4 interview today. It is only a snippet. I urge everyone to listen to the full interview. He did a great job. Very relaxed,very wise.The pressure is off him now that some guards are back at work and much more mileage can be run DOO. But we will have to wait till December for the full fruits of his work to be shown,when trains needn't be cancelled because a second staff member has taken an away day. But watch out for dirty tricks from a few driven RMT supporters.

With that kind of post anyone would think you were responsible for that hilariously bad advertising campaign on southern recently. Stop harking nonsense.

The pressure is not off Charles; he has no respect from staff, and in a large part nor does the company anymore. Staff may be at work but goodwill will never recover now and long term that will continue to cause issues.

 

[JamesTT]

A poster mentioned earlier having saved sufficient funds that they could stage a 6 month walk out if necessary. Another basically commented me too we are ready when the come for us.

Just out of interest between now and any dispute with other TOCs regards DCO/DOO. Will there be a concerted effort to encourage all conductors/guards to do the best job they can.

Let me guess the answer. A very belligerent NO, AND WHY SHOULD WE?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Very relaxed,very wise.

And people have the cheek to label me a troll.

But if the new routemaster bus doesn't have a conductor it still runs but the rear door is kept shut

That's not the point I was making (the most recent batch of NB4Ls have a revised rear door that can't be used as an open rear platform). The point is that the open platform was considered a significant safety risk and so TfL actually paid for a second member of staff on these buses. Which undermines the point that conductors were abolished because they weren't needed.

 

[Antman]

All buses running with the open platform still have the conductors, because safety.

They have all gone, apart from the 15H. Anyway trains don't have open platforms!
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So they took conductors off the buses and then the buses started to get vandalised. Suddenly they had to pay lots of money for CCTV, which hadn't been required previously. Well so someone I know said to me.

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I was referring to when conductors on buses were removed in the 70s and 80s, CCTV wasn't around then.

 

[ainsworth74]

And people have the cheek to label me a troll.

Looks at username...

 

[Tetchytyke]

They have all gone, apart from the 15H.

Ah yes, it seems that all the NB4Ls are now running with the rear door firmly closed. The 15H still has them because of the open platform though.

With that kind of post anyone would think you were responsible for that hilariously bad advertising campaign on southern recently. Stop harking nonsense.

The pressure is not off Charles; he has no respect from staff, and in a large part nor does the company anymore. Staff may be at work but goodwill will never recover now and long term that will continue to cause issues.

Horton never had any respect from staff, and it seems that other senior managers responsible for this fiasco have done a bit of a disappearing act. Nobody's had sight nor sound of them for weeks.

The DOO battle is probably won, because DfT's pockets are significantly deeper than the RMT's. But GTR's behaviour will have significant repercussions for a very long time, goodwill within that franchise has probably been trashed forever and staff in GoVia's other businesses will have been paying attention too.

But then GoAhead's big boss took a bonus of £2.3m- or over 10% of the extra DafT funding- so I'm sure he is intensely relaxed about what is happening.
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I was referring to when conductors on buses were removed in the 70s and 80s, CCTV wasn't around then.

They weren't removed from buses that ran with open platforms. A significant amount of London buses had conductors well into the mid-2000s.

As for CCTV, buses in the 80s had CCTV systems in place, rudimentary as they were. And the cost of vandalism went through the roof. Stagecoach in Newcastle had to get rid of their entire fleet of modern double deckers because they were getting trashed so often in the early 2000s.

Looks at username...

Hush you

 

[infobleep]

They didn't go for a last minute injunction but I am told Southern's official letter to RMT reserves them the right later to sue RMT for the damage they, and their passengers, have suffered. It could cost RMT members far more per head than the £14 it cost ASLEF active members in the high court earlier this year.
Excellent that someone linked to Charles Horton's BBC Radio 4 interview today. It is only a snippet. I urge everyone to listen to the full interview. He did a great job. Very relaxed,very wise.The pressure is off him now that some guards are back at work and much more mileage can be run DOO. But we will have to wait till December for the full fruits of his work to be shown,when trains needn't be cancelled because a second staff member has taken an away day. But watch out for dirty tricks from a few driven RMT supporters.

So if you were working for ASLEF, which high profile battle would you choose to flight?

I asked the question previously but didn't get an answer. Perhaps I need to ask it 14 times! Not that I have any technical faults here.

So why didn't they go for the last minute injunction? Did they think they would lose?

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[Antman]

Ah yes, it seems that all the NB4Ls are now running with the rear door firmly closed. The 15H still has them because of the open platform though.



Horton never had any respect from staff, and it seems that other senior managers responsible for this fiasco have done a bit of a disappearing act. Nobody's had sight nor sound of them for weeks.

The DOO battle is probably won, because DfT's pockets are significantly deeper than the RMT's. But GTR's behaviour will have significant repercussions for a very long time, goodwill within that franchise has probably been trashed forever and staff in GoVia's other businesses will have been paying attention too.

But then GoAhead's big boss took a bonus of £2.3m- or over 10% of the extra DafT funding- so I'm sure he is intensely relaxed about what is happening.
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They weren't removed from buses that ran with open platforms. A significant amount of London buses had conductors well into the mid-2000s.

As for CCTV, buses in the 80s had CCTV systems in place, rudimentary as they were. And the cost of vandalism went through the roof. Stagecoach in Newcastle had to get rid of their entire fleet of modern double deckers because they were getting trashed so often in the early 2000s.



Hush you

Yes some did remain until 2005 but conductors were removed from the 1970's onwards, the rest has no relevance to this thread so there is little point in pursuing it further.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the rest has no relevance to this thread so there is little point in pursuing it further.

"You're right, I'm wrong"

Fixed that for you

 

[FordFocus]

So if you were working for ASLEF, which high profile battle would you choose to flight?

I asked the question previously but didn't get an answer. Perhaps I need to ask it 14 times! Not that I have any technical faults here.

So why didn't they go for the last minute injunction? Did they think they would lose?

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I'm hearing ASLEF aren't quite finished with GTR yet..
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"You're right, I'm wrong"

Fixed that for you

I'm not sure why Antman brought up bus conductors anyway. We must have covered it at least 3 times already in this topic.

 

[infobleep]

They have all gone, apart from the 15H. Anyway trains don't have open platforms!
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I was referring to when conductors on buses were removed in the 70s and 80s, CCTV wasn't around then.

No it wasn't around the because they had conductors so it wasn't needed.... Until they got rid of them of course.... And it wasn't cheap to install so I'm told.

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I'm hearing ASLEF aren't quite finished with GTR yet..
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I'm not sure why Antman brought up bus conductors anyway. We must have covered it at least 3 times already in this topic. [emoji38]

May be they are not finished with ASLEF but XDM mentioned choosing their high profile battle so I asked him which one he'd choose. He doesn't seem to want to answer the question. Bit like politicians. Hence my reference to Jeremy Paxman, although I believe he later claimed technical problems led to him stalling for time by asking the question so many times.

I don't have such technical problems so don't need to stall. I did however wait until XDM posted again, before ask the question a second time, to try and ensure he was reading the thread still when I posted.

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[Antman]

I'm hearing ASLEF aren't quite finished with GTR yet..
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I'm not sure why Antman brought up bus conductors anyway. We must have covered it at least 3 times already in this topic.

And you've just made it at least four times

And I dread to think how many times airline crew have been mentioned!

 

[Robertj21a]

Silly question, I accept, but can someone remind me why the strikes are still going ahead (I know I've lost the plot......)

Apologies for the reminder - can anyone clarify *why* the strikes are still going ahead ?. There's plenty of RMT members on here so, presumably, they all know - it's probably just me that has lost track of the reasoning behind it. Thanks.