The most confusing service on the network - GTR's 18.30 Victoria-Brighton

[theblackwatch]

This evening I travelled from Victoria to Clapham Junction on the 18.30 Victoria-Brighton - nothing odd about it you would think. However, the train, which is marketed as a 'Southern' service is formed of Class 387/2 (Gatwick Express tomato liveried) stock, and the screens at Victoria mention that it does not call at Gatwick Airport.

Unfortunately, the on board screens and announcements think otherwise. The on-board displays listed Gatwick Airport as one of the stops, and it was even announced before departure as being the Gatwick Airport service - in various so different languages. I can imagine a few foreigners heading for their flights home ending up being overcarried. As the train left Clapham Junction, I noticd the display screen on the unit also showed it as stopping at Gatwick Airport.

This whole situation has probably come about by several franchises being merged to form GTR, but the firm attempting to run them independently in some ways, but not in others. It's hardly surprising the poor passenger is confused!

 

[387star]

I am sure a morning Southern service uses gx stock

maybe all just a temporary thing in till 377s are released

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope nobody missed a flight as a result. If they did, I hope GTR cough up for their new fares.

That is one of those cases of an utterly unacceptable error on the PIS which the driver should not have allowed to happen, or at least should have corrected with an announcement so intending Gatwick passengers alighted in time to change for the airport.

 

[theblackwatch]

It may well be that things were corrected before the East Croydon stop, although even if this was the case, I very much doubt a correction was made in all the languages the early announcements had been made in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may well be that things were corrected before the East Croydon stop, although even if this was the case, I very much doubt a correction was made in all the languages the early announcements had been made in.

This is, of course, a case where a Guard would have been of real value, as he could have walked through and spoken to each passenger.

 

[theblackwatch]

Given that it was a full and standing 12 coach train, that might have taken some time!

 

[Deepgreen]

I hope nobody missed a flight as a result. If they did, I hope GTR cough up for their new fares.

That is one of those cases of an utterly unacceptable error on the PIS which the driver should not have allowed to happen, or at least should have corrected with an announcement so intending Gatwick passengers alighted in time to change for the airport.

These errors are rife - sometimes they are corrected and others not. Yesterday the 1649 Victoria to Three Bridges and Reigate had different destinations depending on which screen was viewed and ended up not serving Reigate at all. Despite previous occasions when this train has been wrongly-described, it seems to have got no better. The usual result is for the PIS to go blank or exhort passengers to listen for announcements.

It seems to be regarded as acceptable to use specifically-branded stock 'off-route' with no special effort made to communicate the issue to passengers.
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This is, of course, a case where a Guard would have been of real value, as he could have walked through and spoken to each passenger.

Why; was the P.A. not working either?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This evening I travelled from Victoria to Clapham Junction on the 18.30 Victoria-Brighton - nothing odd about it you would think. However, the train, which is marketed as a 'Southern' service is formed of Class 387/2 (Gatwick Express tomato liveried) stock, and the screens at Victoria mention that it does not call at Gatwick Airport.

Unfortunately, the on board screens and announcements think otherwise. The on-board displays listed Gatwick Airport as one of the stops, and it was even announced before departure as being the Gatwick Airport service - in various so different languages. I can imagine a few foreigners heading for their flights home ending up being overcarried. As the train left Clapham Junction, I noticd the display screen on the unit also showed it as stopping at Gatwick Airport.

This whole situation has probably come about by several franchises being merged to form GTR, but the firm attempting to run them independently in some ways, but not in others. It's hardly surprising the poor passenger is confused!

If the station screens did not include Gatwick, I would assume that no Gatwick passengers would board...

 

[NSE]

I would also concur with the above statement. If the boards didn't say Gatwick, despite the livery on the train, I doubt foreign pax would board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why; was the P.A. not working either?

Have you ever tried making sense of a PA announcement in a foreign language on a busy moving train?

 

[Southern]

This evening I travelled from Victoria to Clapham Junction on the 18.30 Victoria-Brighton - nothing odd about it you would think. However, the train, which is marketed as a 'Southern' service is formed of Class 387/2 (Gatwick Express tomato liveried) stock, and the screens at Victoria mention that it does not call at Gatwick Airport.

Unfortunately, the on board screens and announcements think otherwise. The on-board displays listed Gatwick Airport as one of the stops, and it was even announced before departure as being the Gatwick Airport service - in various so different languages. I can imagine a few foreigners heading for their flights home ending up being overcarried. As the train left Clapham Junction, I noticd the display screen on the unit also showed it as stopping at Gatwick Airport.

This whole situation has probably come about by several franchises being merged to form GTR, but the firm attempting to run them independently in some ways, but not in others. It's hardly surprising the poor passenger is confused!

Perhaps Gatwick was added at the last minute. From the looks of RTT, there were quite a few delays/cancellations that evening:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/VIC/2016/10/17/1830

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/GTW/2016/10/17/1902

 

[theblackwatch]

Perhaps Gatwick was added at the last minute. From the looks of RTT, there were quite a few delays/cancellations that evening:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/VIC/2016/10/17/1830

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/GTW/2016/10/17/1902

If you look at http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70028/2016/10/17/advanced , it didn't stop there.

 

[swt class 450]

This evening I travelled from Victoria to Clapham Junction on the 18.30 Victoria-Brighton - nothing odd about it you would think. However, the train, which is marketed as a 'Southern' service is formed of Class 387/2 (Gatwick Express tomato liveried) stock, and the screens at Victoria mention that it does not call at Gatwick Airport.

Unfortunately, the on board screens and announcements think otherwise. The on-board displays listed Gatwick Airport as one of the stops, and it was even announced before departure as being the Gatwick Airport service - in various so different languages. I can imagine a few foreigners heading for their flights home ending up being overcarried. As the train left Clapham Junction, I noticd the display screen on the unit also showed it as stopping at Gatwick Airport.

This whole situation has probably come about by several franchises being merged to form GTR, but the firm attempting to run them independently in some ways, but not in others. It's hardly surprising the poor passenger is confused!

There are lots of Southern branded services which dont even call at Gatwick Airport that use 387/2 trains. The 23:07 London Victoria to Brighton 00:03 is another service that always uses a 12 coach 387/2. The 387/2 announcements always say "Gatwick Express" (even when they are not stopping at Gatwick Airport) which i presume is because they dont have "Southern" programmed in to the announcements.

An even more confusing GTR service is the 17:32 from London Bridge to Horsham / Tonbridge / Reigate service. This train arrives at Redhill at 18:09 where it splits in to three portions. The front 4 coaches continue to Horsham. The middle 4 coaches continue to Tonbridge. The rear 4 coaches continue to Reigate. Its the only service that i know of to split in to three portions and i imagine that many passengers end up in the wrong coaches. On one occasion quite a while ago this train was formed of 4x 377/3 with the rear 3 coaches terminating at Redhill which caused even more confusion.

 

[Starmill]

At least you were not on the 1730 from London Victoria, which called at Clapham Junction and East Croydon today despite being advertised as a Gatwick Express service, and therefore "non-stop"

 

[swt class 450]

At least you were not on the 1730 from London Victoria, which called at Clapham Junction and East Croydon today despite being advertised as a Gatwick Express service, and therefore "non-stop"

Even when the Gatwick Express branded trains are running non stop the stopping Southern branded trains are often a few minutes quicker.

 

[jon0844]

There are lots of Southern branded services which dont even call at Gatwick Airport that use 387/2 trains. The 23:07 London Victoria to Brighton 00:03 is another service that always uses a 12 coach 387/2. The 387/2 announcements always say "Gatwick Express" (even when they are not stopping at Gatwick Airport) which i presume is because they dont have "Southern" programmed in to the announcements.

You'd think you could select the operator easily, but given the 387s now on Great Northern say Thameslink, I guess not. That's pretty poor, even if a short term problem.

Why is it that passenger information can be so bad, on the basis that it might only be a few months or so? Not a lot of help to people massively inconvenienced.

 

[yorkie]

Even when the Gatwick Express branded trains are running non stop the stopping Southern branded trains are often a few minutes quicker.

Very true.

You'd think you could select the operator easily...

Huh? The operator is GTR. I guess you meant route branding? This is quite frankly a problem that should not exist (of the DfT's making).
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I would also concur with the above statement. If the boards didn't say Gatwick, despite the livery on the train, I doubt foreign pax would board.

Doubt it if you like but there are regular reports of people boarding such trains.

Platforms are often changed (and changed again) at short notice.

The displays & announcements stating the train calls at Gatwick are inexcusable (and no other train company routinely does such a thing) and the external branding issue is also completely avoidable, and is simply repeating a past mistake.

Clearly the lessons of the past have not been learnt, as the 442s used to be branded "Gatwick Express" but the fact the train company (then Southern, now GTR) used them on other routes meant that a sensible decision was taken to re-brand them simply as "Express" to reduce confusion. Why have the same mistakes been allowed to be made again?

They need to - again - remove the "Gatwick" wording from the exterior livery, as it's pretty clear GTR are going to routinely use these units on fast trains which don't call at Gatwick.

I don't know how much GTR are to blame, or how much the DfT are to blame, but they are both utterly incompetent and show a complete disregard for passengers.

 

[jon0844]

I was referring to the PIS announcing 'Welcome to this (xxxxxx) service to' bit, which should be able to be set for the right brand for GTR. If you've got a GatEx liveried train sitting in for Southern (or Thameslink), that doesn't even stop at the airport, it really must be saying Southern, and not doing automatic multi lingual announcements about the airport to confuse people.

Likewise, now we've got 387s going into service on GN, they need to stop saying TL. There's no Thameslink service from Cambridge to King's Cross!

 

[RichJF]

In the reverse to the OP there's a train from Victoria platform 17 at 0700 that's marked as a Gatwick Express service but in fact uses a standard 4 car green liveried 377 & runs non-stop via Redhill rather than the Quarry Line & arrives into Platform 2 at Gatwick rather than 5/6!

 

[Deepgreen]

Have you ever tried making sense of a PA announcement in a foreign language on a busy moving train?

Yes, I have (and some P.A. announcements on non-airport trains seem to be in a foreign language even in this country!), but the point was that the guard would be physically incapable of speaking to every passenger on the train in person in only one language, let alone several, given the time available! The P.A. would be the only means that could be used for this purpose.
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In the reverse to the OP there's a train from Victoria platform 17 at 0700 that's marked as a Gatwick Express service but in fact uses a standard 4 car green liveried 377 & runs non-stop via Redhill rather than the Quarry Line & arrives into Platform 2 at Gatwick rather than 5/6!

As Southern operates many trains that call at Gatwick from London, this shouldn't cause any confusion. I have also seen many GatEx trains running from platforms other than the dedicated 13 and 14 of late. As long as the stopping pattern is correctly shown on the station and the train, all should be well.

 

[yorkie]

As Southern operates many trains that call at Gatwick from London, this shouldn't cause any confusion. I have also seen many GatEx trains running from platforms other than the dedicated 13 and 14 of late. As long as the stopping pattern is correctly shown on the station and the train, all should be well.

As the train uses platform 17, Oyster/Contactless users won't generally be charged extra, but some paper ticket holders will be mislead into paying more than necessary (not that it should ever be necessary, but that's for another thread) and may not be happy at the lack of WiFi (ignoring the fact that the WiFi rarely works anyway, as that's also for another thread!). The false advertising regarding the journey time is also an issue.

But, yeah, other than people being mislead over fares, journey times, and available facilities, all is well with that train

 

[Southern]

If you look at http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70028/2016/10/17/advanced , it didn't stop there.

That would be the normal booked schedule, yes.

If there were any last minute changes however, I don't believe they tend to show up in RTT. For example, if for whatever reason a Charing X - Dover Priory service is cancelled or badly delayed, the following St Pancras service will call additionally at Westenhanger and Sandling. This won't show up in RTT though.

 

[JonathanH]

In the reverse to the OP there's a train from Victoria platform 17 at 0700 that's marked as a Gatwick Express service but in fact uses a standard 4 car green liveried 377 & runs non-stop via Redhill rather than the Quarry Line & arrives into Platform 2 at Gatwick rather than 5/6!

and one 377 back at 1905 from Gatwick that does use the dedicated platforms when it arrives at Victoria before heading off on a suburban duty.

 

[yorkie]

That would be the normal booked schedule, yes.

If there were any last minute changes however, I don't believe they tend to show up in RTT. For example, if for whatever reason a Charing X - Dover Priory service is cancelled or badly delayed, the following St Pancras service will call additionally at Westenhanger and Sandling. This won't show up in RTT though.

Not applicable here. I agree RTT does not always show these changes, but it would generally show in CCLDB (a system used by train companies).

In any case, theblackwatch was on the train and the train did not have a special stop order for Gatwick, nor did it have on the many occasions people have been over carried to Haywards Heath.

 

[Deepgreen]

Interesting to see that 2A45 yesterday (1712 Three Bridges to Victoria) was formed of two 387/2s (GatEx-liveried), causing a little consternation at Redhill. It was also packed on leaving Redhill (13 late), and would presumably have been rostered as a 12 car 377/1-4 rake. Given the reduced service being run, it's very poor that 12 car formations can't even be mustered on strike days, and that the self-contained Three Bridges -Victoria operation keeps falling over in terms of timekeeping.

 

[infobleep]

Interesting to see that 2A45 yesterday (1712 Three Bridges to Victoria) was formed of two 387/2s (GatEx-liveried), causing a little consternation at Redhill. It was also packed on leaving Redhill (13 late), and would presumably have been rostered as a 12 car 377/1-4 rake. Given the reduced service being run, it's very poor that 12 car formations can't even be mustered on strike days, and that the self-contained Three Bridges -Victoria operation keeps falling over in terms of timekeeping.

That is a poor show. I wonder what the reason was. Can't be lack of staff surely. That's not the first time they haven't supplied 12 carriages during the strike either. I forget when the other occasion was now.

Maybe the Transport Select Committee should get Mr Horton in front of them to ask him why 12 carriages can't be used on all services on lines affected by strikes, where they can usually permit 12 carriages?

He wouldn't know the answer but it would be interesting to see what he got someone else to found out. I noticed the Gatwick Express services that stopped at Clapham Junction were rammed yesterday and that is to be expected, given the strike, so I can well believe the Redhill services being rammed.

Where is Jeremy Corbyn when you need him? Too busy travelling on trains that aren't rammed when he says they are no doubt!

 

[postye]

Interesting to see that 2A45 yesterday (1712 Three Bridges to Victoria) was formed of two 387/2s (GatEx-liveried), causing a little consternation at Redhill. It was also packed on leaving Redhill (13 late), and would presumably have been rostered as a 12 car 377/1-4 rake. Given the reduced service being run, it's very poor that 12 car formations can't even be mustered on strike days, and that the self-contained Three Bridges -Victoria operation keeps falling over in terms of timekeeping.

It was booked a 12 car.
The 1508 Three Bridges was cancelled due to a fault, so a Gatex was split at Vic to provide stock for the 1609 vic-Three Bridges & return.
Getting grief for providing a service- I guess GTR can't win at the moment

 

[Southern]

Not applicable here. I agree RTT does not always show these changes, but it would generally show in CCLDB (a system used by train companies).

In any case, theblackwatch was on the train and the train did not have a special stop order for Gatwick, nor did it have on the many occasions people have been over carried to Haywards Heath.

As far as Clapham Junction - after that, anything may have happened. As the OP left the train, he mentioned that the "display screen on the unit also showed it as stopping at Gatwick."

I'm not familiar with CCLDB, presumably you are so perhaps you have the schedule for the stops this service actually made on Monday??? I assume this is how you know the train in question didn't have a special stop order as I can't find mention of it in this thread.

 

[infobleep]

It was booked a 12 car.
The 1508 Three Bridges was cancelled due to a fault, so a Gatex was split at Vic to provide stock for the 1609 vic-Three Bridges & return.
Getting grief for providing a service- I guess GTR can't win at the moment

So where are all the spare units kept during a strike? I know some staff get sent home but must be others around just in case they need someone. Perhaps they are kept on lines without any services, in which case the units are too far away.

Of course if a unit failed it should be possible to explain this to passengers, especially during a strike where they might already be less happy about the provision of service.

I usually find if you explain what's going on people are more happy than if you stay silent.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Deepgreen]

It was booked a 12 car.
The 1508 Three Bridges was cancelled due to a fault, so a Gatex was split at Vic to provide stock for the 1609 vic-Three Bridges & return.
Getting grief for providing a service- I guess GTR can't win at the moment

Interesting information, thanks. GTR are possibly "getting grief" for failing to maintain their trains properly such that the level of failures drops to a reasonable level. I assume the split meant that a GatEx ran as four cars for a few journeys?

 

[maniacmartin]

The 'GatEx' stock rostered for a service not calling at Gatwick' is a common occurrence.

I was also on a train recently that did this (not on a strike day). It also had multilingual announcements which said that the train would be calling at Gatwick, and then the english PIS auto-announcement that had a list of stops that didn't include Gatwick. On the train I was on, there was a brief announcement by the driver some time before the train left that the "Gatwick Express" service* we were on wouldn't be calling at Gatiwick, but the contradictory PIS announcements were left on. There were no manual announcements at Clapham Junction either.

It was actually timetabled as a Southern-branded service, but the driver referrred to it as GatEx