Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[The Ham]

Once Oxford's signalling is sorted out, but before E-W is complete...

I could imagine a set of 230s running a short-term OA franchise Bicester Village-Oxford every 30 minutes - thus effectively giving Bicester Village & Oxford Parkway a service every 15 minutes into Oxford.

It's what the service will be post E-W, so why not start it now?

At a guess at the layout of the signalling, units will be able to proceed past the Bicester chord to clear the line, then return into Bicester.

Very handy for Long Marston "depot"

Might even allow for the odd extra passenger service between HYB and OXF in lieu of an ECS.

... and talking if E-W, given that to start with it will require DMU's, then it could be that if no other units are available then the 230's could a useful fill in until electrification.
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Rumours suggest that both D-Trains and 442s are being considered by bidders for franchises.

Lymington Branch?

(Ducks and hides)

 

[D365]

... and talking if E-W, given that to start with it will require DMU's, then it could be that if no other units are available then the 230's could a useful fill in until electrification.

I thought that it was being designed as a 100mph railway.

Lymington Branch?

Just restore one as a third rail unit!

 

[The Ham]

I thought that it was being designed as a 100mph railway.

I was only thinking that a 60mph unit is better than no unit. Likewise, even if there were enough DMU's to run the core services it could be useful to have a spare 230 to meet peak hour / event demand.

 

[jimm]

I was only thinking that a 60mph unit is better than no unit. Likewise, even if there were enough DMU's to run the core services it could be useful to have a spare 230 to meet peak hour / event demand.

I doubt Chiltern would think having dmus limited to 60mph would be a great idea between Bicester and Oxford at any time, but especially not in the peaks.

 

[route:oxford]

I doubt Chiltern would think having dmus limited to 60mph would be a great idea between Bicester and Oxford at any time, but especially not in the peaks.

That's the trouble though isn't it. There are a few big gaps in the peaks...

07:13
07:45
08:02
08:32

There really could do with being a 07:30 service and an 08:15 service too.

The 08:32 (which is off-peak) is going to be utterly mobbed every single day at £3 return and a very convenient 08:47 arrival time.

Interestingly the bus operator fare from Oxford Parkway to City Centre is priced at 20p less for the 15 minute bus journey than the 5 minute rail fare.

It all depends on where you are going in the city of course.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just restore one as a third rail unit!

Or even easier just send the next one to be retired by LU over to Lymington

 

[47802]

Or even easier just send the next one to be retired by LU over to Lymington

Don't forget they carried out some strengthening of the cab as well as the DEMU conversion.

If they wanted to do something like that on the Lymington branch I wuld have thought a PEP unit would be a better bet.

 

[D365]

Before we go off on a tangent again, I don't think that the Lymington branch suggestion is serious.

 

[47802]

Before we go off on a tangent again, I don't think that the Lymington branch suggestion is serious.

Well you never know, I'm not sure which is more barking these days some of the real railway rolling stock solutions, or some of the comments on here

 

[WatcherZero]

There weren't likely to be any issues wth the timing trials for short HSTs - the issue over HSTs or any other interim solution to GWR's rolling stock needs in the West of England is going to be what it will cost to implement and whether the DfT will approve those costs - in the case of short HSTs this includes power doors and toilet tanks, both of which are already fitted to the 442s. Not that 442s would come without costs either, as I assume the idea would be to make the driving controls compatible with AAR multiple working kit, as used on 67s and 68s, to operate them in push-pull mode.

None of which has anything to do with 230s...

Of course there wasnt likely to be any timing issues they are vastly overpowered for that job. No the point was to test to see if the brakes could cope.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Before we go off on a tangent again, I don't think that the Lymington branch suggestion is serious.

A 2-car version of the "stretch" Parry People Mover would do the Lymington branch just fine, a class 230 would probably be overkill for the Lymington branch.

Well you never know, I'm not sure which is more barking these days some of the real railway rolling stock solutions, or some of the comments on here

Who would have thought a few years ago that any manufacturer would have suggested converting ex LU surface stock into DEMUs

 

[JonathanH]

That's the trouble though isn't it. There are a few big gaps in the peaks...

07:13
07:45
08:02
08:32

There really could do with being a 07:30 service and an 08:15 service too.

The 08:32 (which is off-peak) is going to be utterly mobbed every single day at £3 return and a very convenient 08:47 arrival time.

Interestingly the bus operator fare from Oxford Parkway to City Centre is priced at 20p less for the 15 minute bus journey than the 5 minute rail fare.

It all depends on where you are going in the city of course.

Looks like there is an 'opportunity' to push the fares up - eg by moving the end of the peak to 09:30 rather than obtaining more rolling stock.

 

[jimm]

That's the trouble though isn't it. There are a few big gaps in the peaks...

07:13
07:45
08:02
08:32

There really could do with being a 07:30 service and an 08:15 service too.

The 08:32 (which is off-peak) is going to be utterly mobbed every single day at £3 return and a very convenient 08:47 arrival time.

Interestingly the bus operator fare from Oxford Parkway to City Centre is priced at 20p less for the 15 minute bus journey than the 5 minute rail fare.

It all depends on where you are going in the city of course.

Well Chiltern seem entirely relaxed about the shape of the service are going to provide. And they have held out against adding more than a couple of extra stops for Islip passengers beyond their initial plans - meaning that Islip residents will have something like a third fewer services in and out of Oxford than they enjoyed before the line closed for rebuilding.

And what formation is provided for the 08.32? If it is a six-car with 400+ seats - or planned to be so from December - which would seem sensible given the time it runs at, I can't see it being mobbed unless everyone driving from Bicester to Oxford at that time in the morning switches to it in a flash - and not everyone living in Bicester who works in Oxford wants to get to the city centre, do they?
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Of course there wasnt likely to be any timing issues they are vastly overpowered for that job. No the point was to test to see if the brakes could cope.

Well it would have been a bit worrying for Scotrail and its plans for 2+4 sets if it GWR suddenly found out the brakes wouldn't work....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interestingly the bus operator fare from Oxford Parkway to City Centre is priced at 20p less for the 15 minute bus journey than the 5 minute rail fare.

It all depends on where you are going in the city of course.

Unlike the time saving by rail travel on many journeys, your example of a 10 minute differential in journey time makes that bus option quite good.

 

[kieron]

I doubt Chiltern would think having dmus limited to 60mph would be a great idea between Bicester and Oxford at any time, but especially not in the peaks.

Bicester-Oxford is only 12 miles or so on a double-track railway, so you'd need a pretty intense service in order for mixing 60mph and 100mph trains to be a problem by itself.

As always, this is not to suggest that anything like this is likely to happen.

 

[The Ham]

Bicester-Oxford is only 12 miles or so on a double-track railway, so you'd need a pretty intense service in order for mixing 60mph and 100mph trains to be a problem by itself.

As always, this is not to suggest that anything like this is likely to happen.

Assuming that both trains were running at full speed for 12 miles the 100mph train would take 7 minutes 20 seconds whilst the 60mph train would take 12 minutes (i.e. basically 5 minutes).

However, at each end of the 12 mile section is a station along with stations between. Therefore depending on the acceleration curve and calling patterns there could be more or less of a gap between the two trains, but even allowing for 3 minutes either side of a train (5+3+3=11 minutes) then there should still be enough of a gap to allow different speed trains to run on that section of line.

 

[Clip]

Assuming that both trains were running at full speed for 12 miles the 100mph train would take 7 minutes 20 seconds whilst the 60mph train would take 12 minutes (i.e. basically 5 minutes).

However, at each end of the 12 mile section is a station along with stations between. Therefore depending on the acceleration curve and calling patterns there could be more or less of a gap between the two trains, but even allowing for 3 minutes either side of a train (5+3+3=11 minutes) then there should still be enough of a gap to allow different speed trains to run on that section of line.

Quite, I mean there must be other lines in this country where different types of trains with different top speeds and acceleration run but I cant think of any.

Can any of you readers help?

 

[coppercapped]

Quite, I mean there must be other lines in this country where different types of trains with different top speeds and acceleration run but I cant think of any.

Can any of you readers help?

GW Mains - HSTs (125mph) and Class 165/166 (90mph).

Between Paddington and Reading, and vice versa, the 165/166s take about 6 minutes longer than the HSTs. This costs 2 HST paths.

 

[FlippyFF]

HS1 373/374 vs 395s?

 

[HLE]

West coast mainline?

319/350 v 221/390

 

[ac6000cw]

158s versus IC225 & HST between Peterborough and Grantham.

Freight trains vs passenger (loaded freight is very slow to accelerate, and maximum speeds can be 60 mph or less for non-intermodal freight, sometimes with severe speed restrictions for weak bridges etc. due to axle loadings).

 

[nuneatonmark]

Interesting discussion but kinda going off the point? Predictions as to when we will see the first test run and first in service run on the Nuneaton to Coventry route?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Quite, I mean there must be other lines in this country where different types of trains with different top speeds and acceleration run but I cant think of any.
Can any of you readers help?

Yes, all over. Recently I travelled from Manchester to Edinburgh, one way on a 2xClass 185 DMU and the other on a 1xClass 350 EMU. Both 100mph trains on the same tracks for a substantial part of the trip as 125mph Pendolinos.
There are paths for class 15x dmus (75mph) and class 185s (100) on parts of the ECML, mixing with 125mph trains. To name a couple...

To say nothing of freight movements of which there must be thousands of miles.

And, stepping aside from the top speed issue for a moment, there must be hundreds of miles of track where both "express" and stopping services have to mix, which amounts to the same thing as a "slow train" as regards pathing. The typical pattern is probably to path the slow train to depart right behind the fast one and well in front of the next fast. Like the Hope Valley stopper that takes ~ 20 minutes longer to traverse the shared route than a non-stop service.

 

[paul1609]

I suspect little progress has been made in modifying engines optimised for road use to rail use. The applications are fundamentally different, with completely separate use regimes.

I suspect that a lot of the problem with the reliability of rail engines is actually to do with the standard of both administration and execution of the maintenance regime compared to other industries.
Even within the rail industry its difficult to explain the difference in reliabilities between a Cummins Engine maintained at Salisbury and the same engine under a near identical DMU operated by one of the Northern franchises.

 

[D365]

Predictions as to when we will see the first test run and first in service run on the Nuneaton to Coventry route?

We discussed this only a few pages back.

 

[Clip]

Interesting discussion but kinda going off the point? Predictions as to when we will see the first test run and first in service run on the Nuneaton to Coventry route?

Well not really because there has been much gnashing of teeth and hammering of keyboards surrounding their suitablity on any other line in the whole country due to their top speed/acceleration and everything else by certain members of this forum who simply will not have it that a train limited to 60 could ever go on a line where the next trains can do 75. I was well aware of the many many places where this happens and the traction involved but I thought Id just ahve a little joke to show certain northerners that their issues about these trains are certainly unfounded when this does occur daily. Maybe I should've added a

 

[A0]

Quite, I mean there must be other lines in this country where different types of trains with different top speeds and acceleration run but I cant think of any.

Can any of you readers help?

GN suburban - a mix of 313s (75mph), 317s, 365s and now 387s (100mph) and with different acceleration across all 4.

 

[D365]

GN suburban - a mix of 313s (75mph), 317s, 365s and now 387s (100mph) and with different acceleration across all 4.

Don't forget the 321s which are slightly more powerful.

Probably worth splitting the discussion here though.

 

[Hophead]

Quite, I mean there must be other lines in this country where different types of trains with different top speeds and acceleration run but I cant think of any.

Can any of you readers help?

Well, subsequent responses should teach you not to attempt irony round here again, Clip

 

[Clip]

Well, subsequent responses should teach you not to attempt irony round here again, Clip

I think you will find its sarcasm and not irony - my other post explains more.