EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[125Forever]

The years of underinvestment in infrastructure from successive governments (Labour, Coalition and Tory) led to a leave vote in June.

The fact that leaving the EU won't reduce immigration, and will actually decrease infrastructure being built (especially in the poorest parts of the country) are reasons to vote remain, but for people who see the problems (reduction in infrastructure per head, increase in infrastructure per head), but not the solution (build more infrastructure, which requires more people of working age and in work to pay taxes to fund it, and then requires more people to actually build it), it's easy to think that reducing the number of people would work. Except it wouldn't -- in areas where there are schools with reducing numbers of children, the schools are in danger of closing because they don't have the funding from tax payers to keep them going.

The part about hoards of Polish 'Muslims' marching over here and throwing people off buildings (unlike say Polish 'Christians') is of course crazy talk worthy of Britain First/Daily Mail. Every gay person I know voted remain (but then I only know 3 people under the age of 70 that voted leave).

The "paved over" falicy flys in the face of the reality that 93% of the country is not urban, and when you factor all the "green spaces" in towns and cities, that figure increases to 98% of the country being "not built on".

Fair enough, in part, but then how do you stop the advancement of Daesh in the UK/Continental Europe. France is on our doorstep and has been hit by terrorists hellbent on delivering a poisonous ideology of Sharia Law.

Migration to the UK can be capped, in order to give young Britons a chance of getting work. Yes, whilst some young people are lazy bums who scoff at the idea of flipping a burger at McDonalds, there are many more dedicated and hard-working young people who feel locked out of the work market. As we increase migration and reduce the number of jobs, we are creating major trouble - a friend of mine was recently told his position at Honda in Swindon is to be made redundant as a machine can do his job. It's not certain that he will get a new job straight away, and with Christmas around the corner that announcement could not have come at a worst time.

90%+ non urban now... but in the future? I am aware that a lot of these areas are protected, but the point I am trying to make is that they may not always be protected. Laws can change and money can change hands. Just because we have a lovely country today does not always mean it will stay that way, and we must fight to keep the UK as a lovely country.
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Would that be the inability of the government to build enough of them?

Yes, and also they are paying the bigwigs at the top of the NHS far too much.

£200,000+ for a senior management role? Even Theresa May does not get paid that much as our PM.

Put the money where it should go - towards improving the services, recruiting more doctors and nurses etc. Also, why not bring back the Cottage Hospitals in villages and small towns?

I just hope that now we are Brexiting the £350m savings get sent towards improving the NHS - if not you might as well hand it over to Sir Branson of Pickles.

 

[J-2739]

I just hope that now we are Brexiting the £350m savings get sent towards improving the NHS

That's, like, working.

 

[EM2]

The housing crisis only exists because we have too many people coming here,

Not because Margaret Thatcher let council tenants buy their houses, but not let the council spend the money building more? Nothing to do with that at all?

 

[125Forever]

That's, like, working.

We can but hope.

If it's not done post 2018 then there will be questions to answer.
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Not because Margaret Thatcher let council tenants buy their houses, but not let the council spend the money building more? Nothing to do with that at all?

I'm talking about nowadays, not the 1980s. You cannot blame Maggie forever, she left office in 1990 and has been dead for years.

Changes should have taken place by Labour, had the left felt that letting people buy their own homes was wrong - oh but wait, they had Tory boy Blair at the helm for ten of those years and Gordon Brown for three of them.

1997 to 2010 - 13 years of having the chance to do just this...

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm flattered that you write over 300 words about me, but it's somewhat off topic as this is thread is about the UK's decision to leave the EU and what happens next. Can I suggest you keep such posts to private messages, so we don't distract ourselves from the matter at hand? I have many many times asked what members think should happen next with almost no responses (I think there have been two so far which actually addressed the issue). Maybe you could comment on that? If you want a crib sheet on the possible choices, see here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...s-freedom-movement-choices-take-a7367896.html
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Those who want to UK to leave the single market, make its own trade deals, and cut immigration - what do you think of this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-more-work-visas-to-indian-nationals-says-may

BTW there are many other impediments to a trade deal with India, such as agricultural subsidies.

I don't understand why you have an issue with someone replying to your posts. If you decide to post something on this forum you should expect a response.

 

[EM2]

I'm talking about nowadays, not the 1980s. You cannot blame Maggie forever, she left office in 1990 and has been dead for years.

A million houses taken out of local authority stock by 1987 and not replaced was always going to create pressure, because it takes a lot less time to sell a house than it does to build a new one.
It's not about not being allowed to buy, it's about not being allowed to build.
And Labour did change the rules - five years' tenancy is now required for new tenants to qualify, and properties purchased after January 2005 can no longer immediately be placed on the open market should the owner decide to sell. Such owners must now approach their previous landlord (council or housing association) and offer them "first right of refusal". If the previous landlord is no longer in existence, for example in cases where the former landlord was a registered social landlord which has ceased business, then the property has to first be offered to the local housing authority.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I most certainly did not. Someone demanded to know my nationality (I assume because they believe only certain people are entitled to take part in the debate) and I refused to answer. I want to keep this strictly on topic.

I concur that I asked about your nationality and indeed you refused to answer. I also asked you a series of other questions which were only a response to your previous threads, questions which had nothing to do with your nationality and you have chosen to not respond.
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Corbyn has nothing to do with it. What has happened to the British people that they are happy to vote a party into Government that takes away from those who already have little, that need our help and support, and that any of us could find ourselves in that situation?
Job Centre sanctions. Bedroom tax. Dehumanising 'fit for work' assessments. Universal credit. £23k benefit cap. Disgusting, iniquitous policies that no Government that wishes to be thought of as moral and civilised should wish to inflict on any of its citizens.
And to be honest, that's what probably scares me more than anything.

The British people voted in the Tories at the last election because they didn't trust Labour with our economy and they didn't think Ed Miliband had what it takes to be Prime Minister. Many voters knew what they were letting themselves in for by voting Tory (and all the cuts that you have listed) but even then they still decided to vote Tory. That says far more about the Labour Party (of which I'm a member) than the voters themselves, essentially that Labour in their eye's was not capable of running the country.

And yes this has everything to do with Jeremy Corbyn because he seemingly doesn't have the skill set to take on the Prime Minister and her party. We have no chance of winning the next election and will lose yet more seats in the process. In my view by electing Jeremy Corbyn as our leader we have deprived the nation of a credible opposition.

 

[bramling]

(but then I only know 3 people under the age of 70 that voted leave).

You should visit some train crew depots for some exposure to the real world then.

At one with which I'm rather familiar, a straw poll was taken round the messroom of who was going to vote what, and I think it was something in the region of over 90% voting leave. Needless to say everyone in that sample is under 70, in fact I'd say the majority are under 40. I'd add that this is in the London area, approx 5-10% of the depot is gay, and there are quite a few ethnic minorities too.

Perhaps we should do a straw poll to see if anyone has changed their mind since. I'd bet my life savings that the number would be miniscule.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A million houses taken out of local authority stock by 1987 and not replaced was always going to create pressure, because it takes a lot less time to sell a house than it does to build a new one.

But did those million houses you refer to still house the families to whom they were sold then or the new occupants?

Forgive me if I have not understood the implications contained in that part of your posting.

 

[AlterEgo]

Your comment is also fascinating - a great insight into the mind of a Remainer who probably does not have to live in among the mess created by the Global Elites.

#tickedyboointotnes

I live in Woking. It's hardly utopia!
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I just hope that now we are Brexiting the £350m savings get sent towards improving the NHS

"Hope" is definitely the primary word in that sentence.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I live in Woking. It's hardly utopia!

I should well imagine that Woking is indeed utopia, if you compare it to Harpurhey...

 

[AlterEgo]

I should well imagine that Woking is indeed utopia, if you compare it to Harpurhey...

Yes, but Harpurhey and Totnes aren't "the mess created by global elites". That is just self-identifying as a victim. I believe Britain is massively unequal and balkanised, but blaming it all on "global elites" and fretting about the islamisation of Britain is just silly.

 

[125Forever]

The Totnes reference was a tongue-in-cheek jibe at people who don't have to live near the problems or issues that they create. They live in nice areas far away from the great unwashed (Totnes being a beautiful but rich and exclusive town - except when the tourists visit!)

Most of these people in power will never see the consequences of their actions in person - they are far-removed from the towns and cities which will see change because of what has been decided at the National and even International level. Life goes on for them away from the plebs of places like Merthyr Tydfil, Boston (Lincolnshire), Blackpool etc. If the plebs don't like it, so what, they are too stupid and racist to vote those in power out...surely?

You are right about the UK being unequal, and yes other things such as class and income does come into it (so it's not just NM Rothschild and co.), but most people are happy so long as they have enough to get by and as long as those in charge are doing a good job to look after them. When they don't, that is where people have issues.

A bit of fairness and common sense all round won't hurt anybody.

 

[radamfi]

I've worked in Woking for several years and although while on the face of it it seems like a very affluent commuter haven, there is a huge gulf between rich and poor and there is a substantial area just east of the town centre where 125Forever would not feel comfortable. There is even a Halal Subway store there.

 

[125Forever]

You mean the Sheerwater estate? I've been there before when a friend of mine was playing against Sheerwater FC for Worcester Park FC. Think it was about 2009/10.

Can't say I thought the area was either good or bad, although (gladly) nobody shouted out 'Allah Akhbar'.

I have to laugh at your snide comment though - it is as if some people cannot separate 'I don't want Daesh in the UK' with 'I don't want bleeping Muslims in the UK.' I never said I do not want Muslims nor anybody else in the UK, moreover I welcome multidiversity in the UK and that we can learn off each other and grow as a truly progressive society.

It is almost as if you think that all Muslims = Daesh, Radamfi. They don't.

 

[radamfi]

You mean the Sheerwater estate?

Sheerwater is a typical Surrey working class housing estate, but the area I am talking about is right next to town, which is between Sheerwater and the town centre.

 

[AlterEgo]

You mean the Sheerwater estate? I've been there before when a friend of mine was playing against Sheerwater FC for Worcester Park FC. Think it was about 2009/10.

Can't say I thought the area was either good or bad, although (gladly) nobody shouted out 'Allah Akhbar'.

I have to laugh at your snide comment though - it is as if some people cannot separate 'I don't want Daesh in the UK' with 'I don't want bleeping Muslims in the UK.' I never said I do not want Muslims nor anybody else in the UK, moreover I welcome multidiversity in the UK and that we can learn off each other and grow as a truly progressive society.

It is almost as if you think that all Muslims = Daesh, Radamfi. They don't.

So, scared of Daesh, leave the EU. As Spock would say, "illogical".

If you were worried about your house getting invaded would you leave the residents' association?

 

[Trog]

If you were worried about your house getting invaded would you leave the residents' association?

I would check my locks and alarm myself. Rather than relying on others who probably do not have my best interest at heart.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You should visit some train crew depots for some exposure to the real world then.

At one with which I'm rather familiar, a straw poll was taken round the messroom of who was going to vote what, and I think it was something in the region of over 90% voting leave. Needless to say everyone in that sample is under 70, in fact I'd say the majority are under 40. I'd add that this is in the London area, approx 5-10% of the depot is gay, and there are quite a few ethnic minorities too.

Perhaps we should do a straw poll to see if anyone has changed their mind since. I'd bet my life savings that the number would be miniscule.

Quite a number of polls have been done showing a Remain lead, including margins of error.

Before you say "who trusts polls", neither the general election nor the referendum were outside any polls' margins of error.
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I would check my locks and alarm myself. Rather than relying on others who probably do not have my best interest at heart.

So you think Belgium or Germany doesn't care if a terrorist attack happens in the UK, do they?

Projecting your mistrust of foreigners onto other national governments makes little sense.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would check my locks and alarm myself. Rather than relying on others who probably do not have my best interest at heart.

Depressingly isolationist.

 

[125Forever]

So, scared of Daesh, leave the EU. As Spock would say, "illogical".

If you were worried about your house getting invaded would you leave the residents' association?

Proof?

Yeah, let's trust the EU - I mean it's not as if Merkel won't be able to hand out bracelets to us queers saying 'I'm Gay...pweeeease don't kill me (flutters eyelids).'

More illogical not to address the elephant in the room, that is (of course) that we have an evil organisation hellbent on implementing their way of life on us (a backward, medieval type ideology) and France has already suffered. We are also on their s--t list, for supporting the USA, so it is a case of when and not if AFAIAC.

 

[AlterEgo]

Proof?

Yeah, let's trust the EU - I mean it's not as if Merkel won't be able to hand out bracelets to us queers saying 'I'm Gay...pweeeease don't kill me (flutters eyelids).'

More illogical not to address the elephant in the room, that is (of course) that we have an evil organisation hellbent on implementing their way of life on us (a backward, medieval type ideology) and France has already suffered. We are also on their s--t list, for supporting the USA, so it is a case of when and not if AFAIAC.

1) Daesh is very much receding and is losing territory, morale, and soldiers.

2) How does leaving the EU make us safer from Daesh?

 

[125Forever]

1) Good

2) We would be able to adopt our own 'common sense' policies on dealing with Daesh members, including full checks on mainly unescorted male Muslims coming into the UK (Daesh has already stated that its members have hidden in amongst genuine refugees - a kind of sick version of 'Where's Wally'). We would also be able to refuse entrance to any person strongly suspected of terrorist involvement without the EU demanding that we take people or be fined/have sanctions put on us.

The EU have been shown up by 'Mad Vlad' on dealing with Daesh, and he is doing the job that Obama and other World Leaders should have done. Whilst the EU and USA dithered, Putin outflanked them and got on with the job.

Daesh may be dying out (hopefully) in the Middle East, but how do we deal with their splinter cells here? We are lucky to have high class intelligence services in MI5 and GCHQ, but I fear that the EU and their demands (along with the bleeding heart liberals) may have let them in here. I hope that I am wrong, but if there is a France-style attack here in the UK don't come crying to me.

 

[AlterEgo]

2) We would be able to adopt our own 'common sense' policies on dealing with Daesh members, including full checks on mainly unescorted male Muslims coming into the UK (Daesh has already stated that its members have hidden in amongst genuine refugees - a kind of sick version of 'Where's Wally'). We would also be able to refuse entrance to any person strongly suspected of terrorist involvement without the EU demanding that we take people or be fined/have sanctions put on us.

Sounds great. How do you do that, when the UK has a 300-mile long open land border with the EU with Ireland, which very few people would accept be closed and fortified?

We are lucky to have high class intelligence services in MI5 and GCHQ,

How little ye know.

 

[DarloRich]

A bit of an accusation there, but as a conservative homosexual I suppose I should be used to it, ho hum. Try to point out there is an imbalance with the population-infrastructure and the lynch mobs come a-calling. Hit a nerve did I sweety?

That's a bit unhelpful, silly and childish.

The housing crisis only exists because we have too many people coming here, and no it is not racist to say that because it is not just Muslims from The Jungle coming here but from all over the world (including Caucasians and Asians etc.) You cannot expect the UK to accommodate everybody and there will come a point where we will have to look at partial depopulation (Agenda 21 perhaps). More people coming here to live when infrastructure cannot cope makes no sense, and I wonder if these bleeding heart liberals care more about looking good in the eyes of the media than anything else.

Overlooking some of the other obvious reasons for a housing crisis:

• Cost of buying a first home
• Landlords fleecing people for rents preventing the build up of deposits
• banks being unwilling to lend to cover the lack of deposit
• Lack of a coherent building plan
• changes in personal living arrangements ( we live much more often as single units)
• Reduction in clauses forcing developers to provide affordable homes
• Right to buy homes not being replaced by new builds

But yeah: immigrants :roll: Even if we took away ALL of the immigrants there would still be a housing crisis.

Tell me then, if a town takes on 5,000 migrants but has no room or scope to improve on schools, colleges, industrial and commercial jobs, hospitals, police etc. then what are these 5,000 migrants supposed to do? These migrants (like the rest of us) will need access to these vital facilities, yet when they are stretched to breaking point (5 hours+ waiting times at hospitals across the UK are no uncommon) nobody seems to want to tackle the elephant in the room.

Well perhaps if your sainted Tories invested in the public services we might be able to cope. That is the other elephant in the room.

Besides, the word 'racist' is used like a dumb-dumb bullet in order to silence and stifle debate by the militant SJW jazz-handing permanently offended brigade. If you view me as a racist then fine, I can live with that and you know what - I'll be PROUD to be a racist (in your eyes anyway).

very odd. Very odd indeed. Strange chap.

Your comment is also fascinating - a great insight into the mind of a Remainer who probably does not have to live in among the mess created by the Global Elites.

#tickedyboointotnes

Odd again. Because everyone who voted remain lives in a gated community as some liberal elite separated from the rest. Perhaps there is a some kind of secret handshake. Small minded madness.

 

[125Forever]

How do you do that - an interesting question... my personal guess would be that the Border Patrol and maybe even the Navy would be asked to police the Irish Sea, and the Army and Police would be responsible for the land borders and deporting anybody coming in illegally.

It certainly needs addressing, and I would hope we get an answer to this around the time of Brexit - although I am no fan of Theresa May (nor any political party) I do think she has a steeliness about her and she won't let that issue lie (please, no Vic and Bob posts!)

I would rather have MI5 and GCHQ than not have them, incidentally. I know that some people would rather have Magical Unicorns and the Teletubbies, but I'm not one of them.

 

[Groningen]

They say it is not a result of Brexit, but you never know.

In a statement on the Toblerone Facebook page, the company said it had to make a decision between changing the look of the bars or raising the price. The move has resulted in the weight of the 400g bars being reduced to 360g and the 170g bars to 150g, while the size of the packaging has remained the same.

 

[AlterEgo]

How do you do that - an interesting question... my personal guess would be that the Border Patrol and maybe even the Navy would be asked to police the Irish Sea, and the Army and Police would be responsible for the land borders and deporting anybody coming in illegally.

Good luck with getting the British Army on the border in Armagh. It will never happen.
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I would rather have MI5 and GCHQ than not have them, incidentally. I know that some people would rather have Magical Unicorns and the Teletubbies, but I'm not one of them.

So would I, but it doesn't mean that MI5 are "world class" by extension.

 

[125Forever]

That's a bit unhelpful, silly and childish

Well perhaps if your sainted Tories invested in the public services we might be able to cope. That is the other elephant in the room.

very odd. Very odd indeed. Strange chap.

Odd again. Because everyone who voted remain lives in a gated community as some liberal elite separated from the rest. Perhaps there is a some kind of secret handshake. Small minded madness.

I don't vote Tory nor any of the mainstream parties. At the last GE I voted Independent. Besides, the Tories had to share power with the Liberal Democrats for five years - I am guessing that the way to go about investing in public services was something neither side could agree on. Anyway, Blair and Brown had 13 years to sort that out but failed (as Labour usually does).

As for Strange Chap - careful now...that's unhelpful, silly and childish

Small minded, maybe, but I wouldn't like my mind to be so open that my brain fell through. I don't know (nor really care) whether each and every Remainer lives in a gated mansion away from the working class (although I suspect not), but isn't it funny how most of the richer ones care more about themselves than the general good of the community? Vote Remain and we can import more Eastern Europeans who will work for less than the British workers... more money for us, less for them and balls to the great unwashed.

As somebody who came from a tough working class estate, I am not surprised that the working class stuck two fingers up at the Ballot Box and voted to Leave. It is actually funny to see the Remainers panicking that their way of life is now under threat, and that the gravy train is about to slam into the buffers.

If Remainers aren't happy, then Europe is but a train journey away.
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Good luck with getting the British Army on the border in Armagh. It will never happen.

Okay, fair enough - how would you police it then? (open question)

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay, fair enough - how would you police it then? (open question)

The same way it is policed now. I don't agree that the risk from Daesh requires us to seal our borders and retreat into our shells.

The better option would be not to leave the EU, of course.