A Signal Question

[GNER 91128]

There's a signal on the GNGE shortly before it reaches Werrington Junction (sorry don't know the number) that I frequently walk past and it only every shows amber or green. Even when a train passes it at green it immediately goes back to amber, never red.

Why is this?

 

[507 001]

It's a distant signal, so it is essentially telling the driver what the next signal will be displaying, if it's yellow (no such thing as an amber signal) then the next signal is Red. If it's Green then the next signal can either be Yellow or Green.

 

[30907]

Is it by any chance the first signal in the Peterborough multiple aspect signalling area? In which case it functions as a distant signal. Snap!

 

[GNER 91128]

Thank you both for your very quick replies! Much appreciated!

Yes I believe it is the first in the Peterborough area.

 

[Sig01]

Deleted due to error.

 

[Llanigraham]

Hi.
It's a distant aka repeater signal. Repeats the signal aheads aspect so if it's at a proceed you'll have a green and red it'll be yellow to give advance warning.
A cheaper way of lengthening sections on lighter traffic lines, less track circuits and block sections so easier on the interlockings.
Hope this helps.

Wrong. A "repeater" signal is something totally different to what the OP was asking about.
As has been said this signal he mentioned was the Distant signal which has nothing to do with all the above points.

 

[Sig01]

.....

 

[swissrailpassion]

Confusion may arise easily, there's banner repeater, repeater and repeating. As above, the repeater is a type of distant that is not independently controlled. Hence the R suffix.

 

[Railsigns]

Repeater signal is just a non-preferred term for a distant signal. There's no technical distinction between the two.

 

[Johncleesefan]

A repeater and a (colour light) distant aren't the same thing? I think they are

 

[Llanigraham]

Repeater signal is just a non-preferred term for a distant signal. There's no technical distinction between the two.

Really?
A repeater signal DIRECTLY repeats the aspect of another signal.
A Distant signal warns of the aspect of the Home signal that follows it.

I have never heard of a Distant signal being called a "repeater"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A repeater and a (colour light) distant aren't the same thing? I think they are

No they aren't, see above.
And it doesn't matter if the Distant is colour light or semaphore.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really?
A repeater signal DIRECTLY repeats the aspect of another signal.
A Distant signal warns of the aspect of the Home signal that follows it.

I have never heard of a Distant signal being called a "repeater"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It might be terminology, but the 'wrong direction' bi-di stop signals on the GEML have distant signals and outer distants respectively labelled 'R' (Repeater) and 'RR' (presumably Repeater Repeater!).

 

[tsr]

It might be terminology, but the 'wrong direction' bi-di stop signals on the GEML have distant signals and outer distants respectively labelled 'R' (Repeater) and 'RR' (presumably Repeater Repeater!).

Used all over the place. Half the Uckfield Line signals are distants (or fixed distants) with "R" plates...

The BML reverse-direction signals on both Up & Down Main Reversible have distants suffixed "XR" and "XRR".

 

[ComUtoR]

I was always taught to never use the term "repeater" as it's confusing. While this is all under discussion I'd be interested to know why a...

'banner repeater' is so called when it doesn't 'repeat' They are on/off so is it because we refer to a signal being 'On' for Red and 'Off' for everything else ?

Are distant's always a signal (yellow/green) ?

"repeater not independently controlled" can you elaborate please ? We have 'R' plates or a 'Triangle' I assume by your comment there is a difference ?

Are there any examples of 'Repeaters' ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there any examples of 'Repeaters' ?

Cheers in advance.

Numerous examples; for example just outside the east entrance to the New Street tunnels.

 

[Sunset route]

Used all over the place. Half the Uckfield Line signals are distants (or fixed distants) with "R" plates...

The BML reverse-direction signals on both Up & Down Main Reversible have distants suffixed "XR" and "XRR".

Not the ones between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Copyhold Junction since the Bi-Di renewal. A lot of our repeaters have that have been renewed with various schemes have become plated distant signals with their own signal IDs

We have a right mixed bag now, Cats & Tats, Tonbridge Line, Haywards Heath-Keymer Junction Bi-Di and Keymer Junction-Preston Park Bi-Di still have repeaters. Dorking/Crawley to Arundel, East Branch, Up Lewes and as mentioned above Balcombe Bi-Di all have separately numbered and plated distant signals.

Not to mention the distant signals we have with a red aspects in them, that are listed as "not approachable when red"

 

[Crossover]

It's a distant signal, so it is essentially telling the driver what the next signal will be displaying, if it's yellow (no such thing as an amber signal) then the next signal is Red. If it's Green then the next signal can either be Yellow or Green.

I guess that depends on the signalling area. If it's 2 aspect with a distant, a green distant will (should!) lead to a green main signal

 

[tsr]

'banner repeater' is so called when it doesn't 'repeat' They are on/off so is it because we refer to a signal being 'On' for Red and 'Off' for everything else ?

Not sure exactly how to respond to that question most efficiently, but a "standard" banner repeater is able to repeat either an "on" aspect, an "off" aspect which must be assumed to repeat the most restrictive off aspect available at the associated signal, or no aspect at all, as a failsafe on some modern systems.

Tri-state banner repeaters are also able to display an "off" aspect lit in green, which is used to reduce the performance impact caused by drivers believing that the associated signal is showing its most restrictive proceed aspect, in areas with three or (more usually) four aspect signalling.

Are distant's always a signal (yellow/green) ?

No. They can be a fixed reflective plate with a horizontal yellow graphic reminiscent of a semaphore distant in its most restrictive position. They can also comprise a fixed single yellow aspect with no green (eg. on the Uckfield Single in the Down direction between Buxted and Uckfield). Lastly, there are some signals which would usually only show a double yellow or green aspect (eg. in the Holmwood area).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not the ones between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Copyhold Junction since the Bi-Di renewal. A lot of our repeaters have that have been renewed with various schemes have become plated distant signals with their own signal IDs

I knew something looked too vague when I typed it - couldn't think what I'd forgotten! To be fair, rarely do I actually have to deal with such signals anyway.

Still, I think the point still stands, broadly enough, just with a little tweaking of the general "BML" reference!

 

[Johncleesefan]

According to rule book a distant signal can't show a stop aspect/indication and is often marked with a white triangle of "r" suffix ( r for repeater)

Are you thinking of a Co acting signal, they display exactly the same aspect as their asociated
Signal and are place in areas where the first signal is poorly sighted etc

 

[Railsigns]

Really?

Yes, according to GK/GN0802 Glossary of Signalling Terms.

I have never heard of a Distant signal being called a "repeater"

I've never heard distant signals in AB areas being called repeaters but I have heard distant signals in TCB areas called repeaters.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not sure exactly how to respond to that question most efficiently...

Great explanation. I'm fully aware of how they operate etc but I am more intrigued by the "spottery/techy/historical" answer of why the use of the word "repeater" considering they don't technically repeat anything but give the Driver the information you gave so clearly.

No. They can be a fixed reflective plate with a horizontal yellow graphic reminiscent of a semaphore distant in its most restrictive position.

So much like a fixed distant but in signage form.

Are you thinking of a Co acting signal, they display exactly the same aspect as their associated
Signal and are place in areas where the first signal is poorly sighted etc

Co acting are plated CA if my memory is working. I agree though; that sounds precisely what a 'Repeater' signal would be

Numerous examples; for example just outside the east entrance to the New Street tunnels.

Is John's explanation of Co-Acting what your example is doing ?

Cheers as always to everyone. Still looking for the "spottery/techy/historical" answer from the very knowledgable forumites. There must be a reason why the word 'repeater' is used and some history behind it.

 

[GB]

Great explanation. I'm fully aware of how they operate etc but I am more intrigued by the "spottery/techy/historical" answer of why the use of the word "repeater" considering they don't technically repeat anything but give the Driver the information you gave so clearly.

I believe it was answered or alluded to by tsr. They repeat the state of the signal (stop/proceed/on/off) not the actual aspect.

 

[ComUtoR]

I believe it was answered or alluded to by tsr. They repeat the state of the signal (stop/proceed/on/off) not the actual aspect.

It's also what I stated in my original post, which tsr quoted. As stated by John. Distant's are plated R or with the Triangle and from my perspective there's no rhyme or reason of any difference. If, as Railsigns highlights that there is no technical difference and its just old terminology. Then I understand more why we were taught not to use the term 'repeater' I'm just intrigued where the terms came from and if the ones that actually repeat are still called repeaters or correctly termed Co-Acting; as John states.

Apologies if that's not clear. Its clear in my head but doesn't read well :/

 

[Railsigns]

Banner repeaters were present on the railway before the first colour light signals were introduced. As a two-position device, the banner repeater was ideal for repeating a two-position semaphore signal. If the semaphore signal being repeated had both stop and distant arms, then two banner repeaters were provided, one with a fishtail notch in the banner arm to denote that it referred to the distant signal ahead. Therefore, before the situation was muddied by the arrival of colour lights displaying more than two aspects, banner repeaters did an excellent job of repeating the related signals.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Co-acting signal vs. repeater signal:

A co-acting signal is located at the same longitudinal position as the signal it co-acts with.

A repeater signal is located in a different longitudinal position along the railway from the signal it repeats.

 

[Sunset route]

The only thing I can think of that could be considered as a difference between a distant and a repeater if that in absolute block the distant signal off means that all the stop signals associated with that distant signal for signalbox X have all been cleared to off, while in TCB a repeater distant that is off just means that the next stop signal is off.

At my last signal box at a converging junction both signalled under AB, the down main distant was colour light was as 3 aspect and located with the box in rear starter, down main outer home was a semaphore stop, down inner home was a 4 aspect and the down main starter was also a 4 aspect leading on to an area signalled by TCB from the branch their was a 2 aspect repeater distant and a 3 aspect branch outer home. So on the main all three stops signals needed clearing before you could clear the distant signal but on the branch you could just clear the outer home and bring the train along on reducing aspects as and when you could clear the signals.

So in AB there is a slight difference in the meaning to the driver compared to the standard TCB version all down to drivers route knowledge.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

A Distant signal is at full service braking distance, a Repeater....er....isn't.

 

[QueensCurve]

No they aren't, see above.
And it doesn't matter if the Distant is colour light or semaphore.

Banner Repeater:-

Credit: http://www.tlr.ltd.uk/sigbox/news/news_2013.eb

 

[Sig01]

Repeater signal is just a non-preferred term for a distant signal. There's no technical distinction between the two.

Many thanks, exactly what I was trying to explain. Working on the Southern I've always known these as a Repeater / distant!
Glad I wasn't wrong as told after all. I work on the stuff daily so kind of know my way around it

 

[Johncleesefan]

A Distant signal is at full service braking distance, a Repeater....er....isn't.

This is why I think we won't all agree, I feel you are thinking of banner repeater as "repeater" where I have learned it as slang for a tcb distant with the "r" plate

 

[moggie]

Blimey, with all the experts on here I'm surprised no one has yet put their finger on this yet.

In AB territory the Y/G Distant as has been suggested is identified with a suffix R (or RR if an outer distant) with the triangle symbol shown on the id plate. Importantly (in AB context) it is also worked by a separate lever in the box interlocked with the home and starter signals to ensure it can only be set to clear (green) when both home and starter signals are cleared. The id of the distant signal follows the lever number.

In TCB (two aspect MAS) you also have Y/G signals preceding a stop signal. It might also be the case that a YY/G or Y/YY/G signal is provided - not important in context. The key difference in MAS signalling application though is these signals do not generally have their own signal box / ROC etc operating device. They merely follow the aspect of the signal beyond by virtue of lineside circuit control. In old money they were said to 'repeat' (rather than be independently controlled by the signaller) the status of the next signal - hence the 'R' suffix. They also took the identification of the repeated signal plus the 'R' suffix.

Banner's, albeit a different style of signal entirely follow a similar lineside circuit architecture (no independent control).

Since SSI days one might argue that the circuit architecture and from days of old is not so appropriate as it once was, especially as in TCB (MAS) signalling each signal regardless of type is individually identified.

I think they call it 'progress'?