More nonsense from the incompetent GTR "Gatwick Express" staff.

[BestWestern]

One point. There is an argument that a railway station is private property. I'm not saying its right or wrong (and as Network Rail is a public body.... You may understand my own view) and personally I would film anyway, however you may be asked to stop filming and it might be wise to comply with this request.

Absolutely, I agree. However the only people who I would accept such a request from would be the BTP. The evidence is gained in a matter of a few seconds, that is the crucial bit that's needed. It's worth noting that attitudes have changed a lot in recent times, and the BTP and TOCs are now very much aware that you the days of demanding people don't film or photograph anything are over. Indeed I have recently seen internal guidance from one TOC which specifically reminded staff that passengers are completely within their rights to begin filming, it isn't illegal and staff should deal with it professionally and calmly. There was a line which read something like 'if you are doing your job properly you have no reason to take issue, it will only exonerate you", or words to that effect. Not in the case of our hapless gateline bod here though!

 

[Parham Wood]

When people say this is not something with which a director should be involved I would disagree. As others have said this incident is a serious matter and not isolated. Also it is not going to take up much of their time if the matter is resolved correctly. Upon receipt of the letter the director would instruct his PA to contact the relevant manager in charge saying that the director requires a report on his desk in 24 hours or 9am the next mornng. If the manager knows his onions he will have resolved the problem by then. If the person concerned is on shifts it may take a little more time to interview the individual concerned etc. but all supervisors on the barriers should be aware of the need to ensure such behaviour does not happen again. OK this is an ideal world and I expect as with all organisations there are weak links in the management and supervisory chain, some staff will be very good, a few will be below expectations and this is where things fall down. A note from the PA to customer service would probably follow advising the response to be sent and there may even be a direct response via the PA.

The fact that this does not happen with some TOCs may indicate a weakness at director level. I come from a multi-national background with one of the major companies in the world. The CEO was very hands on when required and hot on customer service. A bad review about a brand would send sales of that dropping down. Unfortunately it is not so easy for a passenger to vote with their feet as they often do not have alternatives. I expect some TOCs do not have quite the same ethos.

 

[EM2]

I had an issue (non-railway) which I could not get resolved. I spoke to four customer service reps, and they were all over-promising and under-delivering, as were their supervisors and managers.
A quick look on the company website revealed the name of their Managing Director of Customer Services, and that the format of their email addresses was [email protected].
Two hours later, there was an acknowledgement reply in my Inbox from the MD, ten hours later there was a phone call also from the MD, telling me that they'd identified the problem, and had rectified the flaw in their system that caused it.
Three days after that, the problem was fully resolved and a day after that, an acceptable settlement was offered.
But that would never have happened without taking the bull by the horns, because no-one in CS could resolve the issue, as their system wouldn't let them. It was my complaint that identified the issue.
Sometimes, you have to go to the top.

 

[furlong]

Staff will occasionally make a mistake, invalidating a ticket that should not have been invalidated. Nobody should blame them for that. It happens. So obviously there must be a procedure in place to resolve such a situation quickly and with minimum fuss so the passenger can continue his or her journey with no more than a slight delay and apology. The details of the procedure itself are of no interest here. The management-level problem is the significant number of staff unaware of what to do and the substantial amount of time it took to resolve. A top-down complaint would try to obtain reassurance that this management problem has been addressed such that no passenger will suffer a similar, easily-avoidable delay again.

 

[Busaholic]

I was once at Victoria platforms 13/14 when they called BTP because they made a false claim about the name of the train company, and someone asked "who is your employer?" The police were asked to make the passengers leave.

I doubt BTP will know much in the way of ticketing matters, they will believe the staff and remove anyone from the stayion who isn't complying with theit unreasonable demands.

.

Off the immediate topic, but I was on an Orpington train at Victoria one Saturday early evening when a totally incomprehensible 'announcement' came over the Tannoy for several minutes. None of us (and there were dozens, it still being a half-hourly service then) could hear anything intelligible, but after about fifteen minutes everyone just got off the train. No staff around to ask, just an announcement on the departure board that due to someone on the track in Kent (!) all services on S.E. were cancelled until further notice. Then I noticed two BTP constables standing by the gateline and approached them to see if they'd heard what was going on, but was quickly rebuffed by one of them ordering me to leave the station or I'd be arrested. My Saturday evening in London at my sister's, an event only occurring about every five years, which involved a meal out was ruined by the time I eventually got there, but more so by the totally unnecessary 'reaction' from BTP to my attempting to politely ask a reasonable question.

 

[matt_world2004]

Staff will occasionally make a mistake, invalidating a ticket that should not have been invalidated. Nobody should blame them for that. It happens. So obviously there must be a procedure in place to resolve such a situation quickly and with minimum fuss so the passenger can continue his or her journey with no more than a slight delay and apology. The details of the procedure itself are of no interest here. The management-level problem is the significant number of staff unaware of what to do and the substantial amount of time it took to resolve. A top-down complaint would try to obtain reassurance that this management problem has been addressed such that no passenger will suffer a similar, easily-avoidable delay again.

I would have thought radioing the ticket office, explaining what happened and getting them to print a new ticket would have been the appropriate soloution here.

 

[causton]

I would have thought radioing the ticket office, explaining what happened and getting them to print a new ticket would have been the appropriate soloution here.

Not as simple as you think. Every single penny is accounted for in a booking office, and there is no real way to give someone a free travelcard. It would have to be authorised by a high-up manager or passenger accounts! I guess, you could submit the torn one and "non-issue" it in a sense, but due to how awkward the systems are, there is no way this would be resolved instantly.

 

[AlterEgo]

When people say this is not something with which a director should be involved I would disagree. As others have said this incident is a serious matter and not isolated. Also it is not going to take up much of their time if the matter is resolved correctly. Upon receipt of the letter the director would instruct his PA to contact the relevant manager in charge saying that the director requires a report on his desk in 24 hours or 9am the next mornng. If the manager knows his onions he will have resolved the problem by then. If the person concerned is on shifts it may take a little more time to interview the individual concerned etc. but all supervisors on the barriers should be aware of the need to ensure such behaviour does not happen again. OK this is an ideal world and I expect as with all organisations there are weak links in the management and supervisory chain, some staff will be very good, a few will be below expectations and this is where things fall down. A note from the PA to customer service would probably follow advising the response to be sent and there may even be a direct response via the PA.

The fact that this does not happen with some TOCs may indicate a weakness at director level. I come from a multi-national background with one of the major companies in the world. The CEO was very hands on when required and hot on customer service. A bad review about a brand would send sales of that dropping down. Unfortunately it is not so easy for a passenger to vote with their feet as they often do not have alternatives. I expect some TOCs do not have quite the same ethos.

This just isn't how things work. Not in 2016. "I want a report on my desk by 9am tomorrow morning!" isn't an approach or culture I recognise from any job in my working life which began in 2002.

It's very poor if CEOs routinely get involved in resolving customer complaints. TOCs use a CRM system to capture complaint reasons/locations/staff members involved and produce reports that go to directors anyway. So, trends will definitely get picked up.

A CEO of "one of the major companies of the world" (eh?) should not be wasting their time resolving issues which his or her staff can take care of. Even Richard Branson doesn't do it, unless there's some sort of massive publicity in it for him (remember the Virgin Atlantic meal issue?).

Your CEO is a good CEO if they employ the right staff, train them, set direction, and motivate them to do things properly.

So far we've seen two professional complaint handlers (I moved on from such a role two years ago) explain that you should use the process for resolving complaints.

Writing to a director will risk your complaint being delayed by a day or two while it gets redirected, is self-important, unproductive for you and the TOC, and is just the wrong thing to do.

Please stop writing to them!! Gahhhhh!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Staff will occasionally make a mistake, invalidating a ticket that should not have been invalidated. Nobody should blame them for that. It happens. So obviously there must be a procedure in place to resolve such a situation quickly and with minimum fuss so the passenger can continue his or her journey with no more than a slight delay and apology. The details of the procedure itself are of no interest here. The management-level problem is the significant number of staff unaware of what to do and the substantial amount of time it took to resolve. A top-down complaint would try to obtain reassurance that this management problem has been addressed such that no passenger will suffer a similar, easily-avoidable delay again.

Yes, but you're assuming that customer relations don't themselves report on these issues. That's an incorrect assumption, as the details of the complaint are captured and reported on to a director level.

I'm genuinely astonished that many people don't seem to know how a complaints department works. (Just an observation I muse upon, not a criticism)

 

[35B]

This just isn't how things work. Not in 2016. "I want a report on my desk by 9am tomorrow morning!" isn't an approach or culture I recognise from any job in my working life which began in 2002.

It's very poor if CEOs routinely get involved in resolving customer complaints. TOCs use a CRM system to capture complaint reasons/locations/staff members involved and produce reports that go to directors anyway. So, trends will definitely get picked up.

A CEO of "one of the major companies of the world" (eh?) should not be wasting their time resolving issues which his or her staff can take care of. Even Richard Branson doesn't do it, unless there's some sort of massive publicity in it for him (remember the Virgin Atlantic meal issue?).

Your CEO is a good CEO if they employ the right staff, train them, set direction, and motivate them to do things properly.

So far we've seen two professional complaint handlers (I moved on from such a role two years ago) explain that you should use the process for resolving complaints.

Writing to a director will risk your complaint being delayed by a day or two while it gets redirected, is self-important, unproductive for you and the TOC, and is just the wrong thing to do.

Please stop writing to them!! Gahhhhh!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, but you're assuming that customer relations don't themselves report on these issues. That's an incorrect assumption, as the details of the complaint are captured and reported on to a director level.

I'm genuinely astonished that many people don't seem to know how a complaints department works. (Just an observation I muse upon, not a criticism)

I've twice gone over the head of CS. Once recently with a TOC where I had a particular issue where time was important to avoid a repetition, and once avfew years ago with Sainsburys where my wife and I were having problems with the quality of a product.

In both cases, the escalation worked effectively because the communication was clear, and it was a specific issue that would probably not have filtered up effectively because it would have been lost in statistical noise had normal reporting channels been used. Similarly, all the takk of CRM systems, processes, etc misses a key point - they are means to an end, not the end itself. It is when staff refer back to the system, or the process it represents, without understanding the context of the complaint, that they do most harm. For example, I recently had a dispute (successfully resolved) with British Gas about a broker contract; the CS staff following process were consistently telling me that it was nothing to do with British Gas despite being a contract they were party to.

The problem with large organisations is that there is often a thick, barely permeable filter between the top management and the shop floor. This is reinforced by management cultures that make delivering bad news difficult. Good senior managers will dip down into issues rather than just wait for stuff to be reported, because it helps keep their priorities at the top of peoples minds.

 

[adc82140]

I've had (non railway) success writing to a CEO- 2x home visit service calls missed, having waited in, I emailed the CEO. I'm under no illusion that the CEO actually reads their emails, but their PA probably does. My complaint was redirected to the head of customer services, who phoned within 10 minutes of hitting send on the email. They offered a satisfactory settlement (a Sunday home engineer visit) that normal CS could never have offered.

All CEOs are responsible for everyone who works in their company through the chain of command. That's why they get paid so much. They can't hide behind their minions. If that chain of command fails, I think you're perfectly within your rights to go to the top- but remember to have ready what YOU want the outcome to be- and make it reasonable- no should be sacked/disciplined etc, but plenty of "improve your staff training" etc.

Complaints sent to the MD or a director were almost never prioritised and went in with everyone else's correspondence, at both TOCs I worked for. Having read hundreds of them, almost none of them - less than 1% I'd reckon - required a director to resolve the case.

I still have proudly in my posession a letter signed by First Great Western (as was) MD Mark Hopwood when I wrote about poor performance on the North Downs Line

 

[infobleep]

If I need to complain about something these days, I go to Tweeter. I had an issue recently and it was taken off line via direct message. The issue was mostly likely relates to a poorly designed computer retail system in the companies stores. I made sure the person on Tweeter would confirm that if necessary, the people / company who designed the system would be informed. I can do no more than that. I already took my business elsewhere in the mean time. The company lost £40 worth of sales and I actually saved money going elsewhere.

Not all companies offer direct messaging and if they don't then I'll continue Tweeting instead.

Sometimes I'm just pointing out mistakes of conflicting information on different web pages across different organisations. If they don't wish to fix the issue, up to them. I'm not wasting my time any further. However if they say the web page has been updated and it hasn't, as happened with South West Trains recently, I will tweet again. After that I'll leave it if I don't hear back.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[talldave]

I think the problem everyone's ignoring here is that in GTR the staff on the ground don't give a toss and the customer services people are overloaded and incompetent, taking their allotted 20 days to totally miss the point. So there is no working process to resolve an issue like this and I doubt there ever will be without a sweeping change of culture at the management level and below.

 

[najaB]

Sometimes, you have to go to the top.

Indeed, sometimes you do. For example, if

I spoke to four customer service reps, and they were all over-promising and under-delivering, as were their supervisors and managers.

In my organisation that would be accepted as a high level escalation. A case were someone's first contact was a letter to the CEO would not.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Not as simple as you think. Every single penny is accounted for in a booking office, and there is no real way to give someone a free travelcard. It would have to be authorised by a high-up manager or passenger accounts! I guess, you could submit the torn one and "non-issue" it in a sense, but due to how awkward the systems are, there is no way this would be resolved instantly.

If the execrable incompetence of the member of staff can create the problem instantly - just to remind us here, the destruction without high-up authority of a valid and paid-for ticket - then there should be a method of "instantly" sorting it out.

 

[matt_world2004]

If the execrable incompetence of the member of staff can create the problem instantly - just to remind us here, the destruction without high-up authority of a valid and paid-for ticket - then there should be a method of "instantly" sorting it out.

I thought replacement tickets could be issued with a zero fare price attached to them, they can for seasons.

 

[randyrippley]

I deal with complaint forwarded to me in the fairest way. If there is someone else in front of you, you don't jump the queue. If the issue is important, Customer Services would have given it the necessary priority as well, but of course, you don't believe that............

To avoid any misunderstanding, I don't enjoy having to do that (but thanks for the insult), but in the interest of fairness to all the customers whose complaints arrived earlier, I don't have any other choice but to stuff the queue-jumpers to the bottom of the queue where they should be. I only have limited time to devote to escalated complaints, and I doubt you will be saying the same had your complaint been the one that is delayed a further two days because someone else chased up the MD and it was shoved into the queue ahead of you.

There is an astonishing hidden fact in your post........any organisation which has so many complaints that it requires a time-delayed queue to handle must have something fundamentally wrong at its core.
Either in the way its treating customers (and so generating the complaints) or in the way its handling the complaints (and so not clearing them promptly). Or maybe both. Either way the company would appear to need a fundamental change in its practices. Or removing from its franchise

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the problem everyone's ignoring here is that in GTR the staff on the ground don't give a toss and the customer services people are overloaded and incompetent, taking their allotted 20 days to totally miss the point. So there is no working process to resolve an issue like this and I doubt there ever will be without a sweeping change of culture at the management level and below.

So by that token everyone should just write to the MD straight away.

Imagine if everyone did that.

On a forum where there is continuous myopic grumbling about "other people's self-importance/how irritating other passengers are" it's a little strange to see how unanimous everyone is about circumventing whole departments and going straight to the top.

I thought the MD of GTR was "incompetent" anyway?

For the last time, escalation process is front line staff > customer relations > customer relations manager review > Transport Focus.... then, if you like, > director/MP (if you ever get this far you have my pity - it must be really bad!)

Hmm!

 

[Eboordna]

If anyone emails our MD, his PA will read it and deal appropriately - that usually means speaking with someone senior in Customer Service to determine the course of action; they will then either (a) take on the case and contact the customer ASAP (b) brief the PA on what they believe should happen from the MD or other director with minimal use of their time or (c) send the customer a standard response saying their matter has been passed on to Customer Service.

This is the number one way we discover what the big problems are out there that may not reach director level otherwise, but it should obviously only be used as a course of action if either it's a very serious matter, or Customer Services response is inadequate. If someone emails to complain their train was 10 minutes late this morning, the response will definitely be (c), but if the issue was as in this thread, it would definitely be (b) and action would be taken very quickly!

 

[broadgage]

The railway industry are very keen on imposing on the spot "fines" on customers who make a mistake.
Perhaps this should work both ways ? In the case reported of the valid ticket being destroyed, perhaps the railway should pay to the customer an on the spot "fine" of say £80 plus the value of the loss, say a replacement travel card.

 

[sheff1]

If anyone emails our MD, his PA will read it and deal appropriately - that usually means speaking with someone senior in Customer Service to determine the course of action; they will then either (a) take on the case and contact the customer ASAP (b) brief the PA on what they believe should happen from the MD or other director with minimal use of their time or (c) send the customer a standard response saying their matter has been passed on to Customer Service.

That was basically the way things worked in the only organisation where I was involved in complaint handling.

After repeated posts on this thread about "abuse of process" and not understanding how CS works, good to see that at least one other organisation uses what I always considered to be a sensible process.

 

[AlterEgo]

That was basically the way things worked in the only organisation where I was involved in complaint handling.

After repeated posts on this thread about "abuse of process" and not understanding how CS works, good to see that at least one other organisation uses what I always considered to be a sensible process.

Essentially, nearly all organisations use that process. I was quite clear earlier that there are sometimes complaints which might warrant going straight to an MD or director, but I'll repeat it again. Typically these are structural or endemic organisational problems, or, thinking about it, extremely serious safety breaches perhaps. 98% of the time, option (c) was taken when the PA opened the envelope - even at Virgin, with its culture of senior people being visible and accessible.

A ripped up ticket and being buggered about for an hour is boneheaded and incredible, but still, definitely going down option (c), even if a forum of rail enthusiasts disagree with that.

The other thing is, once you go to a director, and they respond, that's it. All the mediation in the world from Transport Focus (who deal solely with CR, not key decision makers) isn't going to shift the decision.

 

[maniacmartin]

Not as simple as you think. Every single penny is accounted for in a booking office, and there is no real way to give someone a free travelcard. It would have to be authorised by a high-up manager or passenger accounts! I guess, you could submit the torn one and "non-issue" it in a sense, but due to how awkward the systems are, there is no way this would be resolved instantly.

That is of no concern to the customer. The new ticket should be issued, then the staff should deal qwith the paperwork afterwards in their own time.


Sadly my experience with Customer Service at large companies (not necessarily rail) is you have to wait a long time only to get a canned response that doesn't address your concern. CS staff mostly often hide behind so-called company policies to deny righting their company's breach of contract and shoddy service. In this day in age, it seems the only way to get things resolved is becoming complaining publicly on twitter (assuming you have enough followers).

My usual response nowadays to problems is with major companies is to just take my business elsewhere, because it is rarely worth the hassle pursuing most issues. Of course rail franchises, being government-granted monopolies, make that difficult.

 

[TheEdge]

That is of no concern to the customer. The new ticket should be issued, then the staff should deal qwith the paperwork afterwards in their own time.

As an aside from this discussion, for which there is no defense, its not that simple. In many cases for certain actions to be taken a manager has to authorise it first so its not just for the staff member to do and then deal with paperwork later. If it can't get authorised it can't be done.

That said this is pretty awful and it takes a lot for me to directly criticise rail staff but in this case its awful. Although I've come across a member of TfL staff who didn't understand how off zone zonal tickets work so its not unbelievable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly my experience with Customer Service at large companies (not necessarily rail) is you have to wait a long time only to get a canned response that doesn't address your concern. CS staff mostly often hide behind so-called company policies to deny righting their company's breach of contract and shoddy service. In this day in age, it seems the only way to get things resolved is becoming complaining publicly on twitter (assuming you have enough followers).

My usual response nowadays to problems is with major companies is to just take my business elsewhere, because it is rarely worth the hassle pursuing most issues. Of course rail franchises, being government-granted monopolies, make that difficult.

My experience is that most companies big enough that your complaints aren't individually read by the director don't give a monkey's about customer service, and the purpose of the customer service department is to issue compensation and fob-off letters without ever changing anything.

Twitter is a powerful tool to fight this, as is Tripadvisor etc, and long may they last.

 

[philthetube]

on the 2 occasions when I have had problems dealing with customer services departments, after reasonable attempts I have found that speaking to a manager has brought a satisfactory resolution. I have never found the need to go higher than that.

 

[matt_world2004]

As an aside from this discussion, for which there is no defense, its not that simple. In many cases for certain actions to be taken a manager has to authorise it first so its not just for the staff member to do and then deal with paperwork later. If it can't get authorised it can't be done.

That said this is pretty awful and it takes a lot for me to directly criticise rail staff but in this case its awful. Although I've come across a member of TfL staff who didn't understand how off zone zonal tickets work so its not unbelievable.

Then if the gateline assistant needs to get a manager to authorise a reprint of the ticket.They Should. I'm sure a key competancy of working in a safety critical environment such as the railway is taking responcibility for ones own mistakes Looking at the instruction manual for the tube etm's it appears to be possible for a CSA to use them to issue a zero fare ticket a reason has to be given. I would be very suprised that such a system does not exist for national rail operators too.

 

[Haywain]

Then if the gateline assistant needs to get a manager to authorise a reprint of the ticket.They Should. I'm sure a key competancy of working in a safety critical environment such as the railway is taking responcibility for ones own mistakes Looking at the instruction manual for the tube etm's it appears to be possible for a CSA to use them to issue a zero fare ticket a reason has to be given. I would be very suprised that such a system does not exist for national rail operators too.

In which case you should feel free to be as surprised as you like.

 

[Greenback]

There is an astonishing hidden fact in your post........any organisation which has so many complaints that it requires a time-delayed queue to handle must have something fundamentally wrong at its core.
Either in the way its treating customers (and so generating the complaints) or in the way its handling the complaints (and so not clearing them promptly). Or maybe both. Either way the company would appear to need a fundamental change in its practices. Or removing from its franchise

You are overlooking the fact that all organisation receive unjustified and groundless complaints. All organisations receive vexatious correspondence. All of these things need to be handled. It's impossible to keep on top of them, even if the company is very highly regarded indeed.

On the railway many complaints are not even down to the company that receives them, such is the fragmented and complicated nature of the industry.

Having a large volume of complaints is not necessarily a true reflection of the company concerned at all. Neither is being unable to deal with them all on the day they were received.

This discussion is going increasingly off topic.

 

[talltim]

A complaint of this nature should go to the top of the pile regardless of who is copied into it. At my workplace it would be treated incredibly seriously. However given the numerous incidents of poor behaviour at this gateline, I am not convinced GTR take complaints as seriously as they should do. Nevertheless, out of the many incorrect actions by staff at that gateline, this has to be one of the worst, so I would hope appropriate action is made in a timely manner.

It probably goes in the Victoria Gateline/GatEx priority pile...

 

[swt class 450]

Thanks for all your replies. I sent off an email to customer services on Friday evening so hopefully i will get a reply soon (although it will probably take about a month). I am expecting that i will probably just get their usual copy and paste response. It would definitely be nice to also get some compensation for all of my wasted time but i doubt they will do that.

Whenever i use a "Gatwick Express" branded train to or from London Victoria P13 and P14 i always check if the side gate near P15 to P19 or the side gate near P9 to P12 are left open as it saves a lot of hassle. Unfortunately on this occasion they were shut.

From looking online and on Twitter etc so many people do indeed seem to have problems at P13 and P14. It seems like the only tickets they want to accept are.

Any Permitted Single from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria
Any Permitted Return from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria
Any Permitted Single from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport
Any Permitted Return from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport

They dont seem to like to accept any other tickets (even if they are fully valid). I will certainly be very careful when using these platforms in the future to ensure that my tickets dont get ripped up again