Reading commuters filling long distance GWR services

[Taunton]

Mod Note: Posts 1 - 44 originally from this thread.

A notable comment on the 5-car/9-car discussion was last week on the 21.15 Paddington to Swansea, which I took throughout. Announced at Paddington in the usual way, about 5 minutes before departure after the set had been stood there for the best part of an hour, it was all seats taken and indeed a few standees upon departure. Over 50% of the load got out at Reading, and by the time we arrived at Swansea, notwithstanding any local Cardiff-Swansea passengers, those disembarking were pretty much down to single figures, and indeed the coaches had been near-empty after Bristol Parkway.

You can find the same on Penzance services. It's something that doesn't happen on Euston to Liverpool/Manchester. Does make you think of the value of dividing en-route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the biggest problems on GWR is Reading. It really needs separating out, with its own fast 12-car EMU services and all ICs stopping to pick up and set down only as required by direction.

I reckon most GWR services past Reading could be 5-car IEP if they didn't need to carry Reading passengers.

 

[D365]

One of the biggest problems on GWR is Reading. It really needs separating out, with its own fast 12-car EMU services and all ICs stopping to pick up and set down only as required by direction.

Huh? Isn't that exactly what the Class 387s are?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Huh? Isn't that exactly what the Class 387s are?

There aren't enough of them to stop the ICs from carrying *any* Reading passengers, which is what is needed. Reading needs a dedicated fast service. The problem is that HEx takes the necessary paths up.

If HEx becomes a basket case once Crossrail starts as everyone will use that, then perhaps it could go and free the paths up for something like a 4tph Reading fast 12-car EMU service, then the commuters could be completely kept off the IEPs.

 

[dgl]

Would it work if there was a special ticket for commuters fro reading only that was cheaper but was restricted to non IEP services only, probably would cause a myriad of complaints would probably not be possible both due to applicable restrictions and stock but would certainly help to remove commuters from the long distance services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it work if there was a special ticket for commuters fro reading only that was cheaper but was restricted to non IEP services only, probably would cause a myriad of complaints would probably not be possible both due to applicable restrictions and stock but would certainly help to remove commuters from the long distance services.

Well, that's how it would work in a German Verbund - the Verbundkarte wouldn't be valid on the ICs. Might well be a way of smoothing it out a bit.

 

[Hadders]

As others have said, the issue is capacity rather than fares. You could try and price commuters off the IC services but there are insufficient trains and paths for them to transfer to.

 

[AlexNL]

Would signalling improvements (closer spacing, ETCS) be able to provide those paths, or is it really not possible without building additional infrastructure?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would signalling improvements (closer spacing, ETCS) be able to provide those paths, or is it really not possible without building additional infrastructure?

Possibly, but getting rid of HEx, which I think there is a chance may happen[1], would be a very good way to free up 4 fast paths per hour, ideally for a 4tph EMU Reading non-stop (or one-stop, perhaps half at Slough and half at Maidenhead) service.

[1] I am unconvinced anyone will use it in its present form when Crossrail provides a better replacement with better coverage of Central London, so it's likely to become uneconomic, and there is no case whatsoever to subsidise it.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes HEX is a real scourge on the Western. IC services are Usually timed about 28 minutes to cover Reading to Padd (on Plymouth/PZ starters) , and this isn't padding for recovery time it is to take into account that the service is timed to wait for a HEX to go infront at Airport Junction. Let us hope that Crossrail does consign HEX to the dustbin and thus improve journey times to the West.

 

[asylumxl]

Yes HEX is a real scourge on the Western. IC services are Usually timed about 28 minutes to cover Reading to Padd (on Plymouth/PZ starters) , and this isn't padding for recovery time it is to take into account that the service is timed to wait for a HEX to go infront at Airport Junction. Let us hope that Crossrail does consign HEX to the dustbin and thus improve journey times to the West.

Having to slow down and speed back up also uses a lot of extra fuel (and electricity in the future).

 

[cactustwirly]

Perhaps the current morning peak services from Henley, could be started at Reading instead, (calls at Twyford & Maidenhead)

 

[jimm]

I reckon most GWR services past Reading could be 5-car IEP if they didn't need to carry Reading passengers.

Do you ever actually travel on any GWR long-distance services? If you did you would know what a monumentally stupid statement that is.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think comparing GW to the WCML is a bit difficult.

For GW Reading is probably a huge demand point and the ends of routes served by it have much lower demand. I am thinking of Swansea, Penzance and Worcestershire.

For the WCML the main passenger demand points are at the end of routes from London. That is Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

If the Trent valley route did not exist and all WCML services went via Birmingham then perhaps Birmingham would have a similar effect on loadings to services further North as Reading does on services heading further West.

 

[Hadders]

Even if you could eek out a few additional paths for 'Reading Commuter Cruiser' services they would soon become over crowded, if anything like the present rate of passenger growth continues.

 

[Taunton]

For GW Reading is probably a huge demand point and the ends of routes served by it have much lower demand. I am thinking of Swansea, Penzance and Worcestershire.

This is indeed the point. Swansea has generally more than half tipped out by Swindon, and Worcester by Oxford. The main determinant is how long ago was the previous Reading fast. If it was just 5 minutes before, things are quite good. If it's been 20 minutes or more, not so.

It used to be that in the down direction, as passengers were admitted nicely before departure, the longer distance ones were on board and seated first, and the Readings filled in during the last few minutes when it finally became the next departure. Now that it's policy at Paddington to hold everyone back until there are just a few minutes to go (WHY?) the Readings, probably less-encumbered with baggage and more savvy to the procedures through familiarity, generally can beat the long-distance passengers to it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is indeed the point. Swansea has generally more than half tipped out by Swindon, and Worcester by Oxford. The main determinant is how long ago was the previous Reading fast. If it was just 5 minutes before, things are quite good. If it's been 20 minutes or more, not so.

It used to be that in the down direction, as passengers were admitted nicely before departure, the longer distance ones were on board and seated first, and the Readings filled in during the last few minutes when it finally became the next departure. Now that it's policy at Paddington to hold everyone back until there are just a few minutes to go (WHY?) the Readings, probably less-encumbered with baggage and more savvy to the procedures through familiarity, generally can beat the long-distance passengers to it.

Actually your reminding me of myself !. From Victoria I can get any of the trains going to the South coast for my journey only as far a Croydon. So in that respect Croydon is rather like Reading. Southern do generally platform their trains further in advance than GW seem to. That is despite, I imagine, a GW HST sitting waiting at Paddington for longer than a Southern Electrostar waits at victoria.

The big exception is the Gatwick express of course but they have always been obvious (different stock since the days of the 4-VEGs). There is/was a boat train (to Littlehampton ?) that used to skip Clapham Junction on my commute home and that used to give me a heart attack as it ambled through !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you ever actually travel on any GWR long-distance services? If you did you would know what a monumentally stupid statement that is.

It's not monumentally stupid at all. There are many GWR long-distance services that carry primarily Reading passengers. Those VTWC services that stop at MKC in the peak can be similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the Trent valley route did not exist and all WCML services went via Birmingham then perhaps Birmingham would have a similar effect on loadings to services further North as Reading does on services heading further West.

It doesn't really as Birmingham is also a significant traffic source. The Euston-Brum-Scotland services seem to have pretty consistent (quite high) loadings throughout in my experience. Brum is also too far out of London to be a primarily commuter location, though HS2 may shift that a bit.

MKC is a better comparison being a similar distance out and of similar commuter importance (albeit slightly smaller in population terms but growing year on year and likely to end up larger over time). But MKC has an adequate local service, Reading doesn't.

 

[Starmill]

It's not monumentally stupid at all. There are many GWR long-distance services that carry primarily Reading passengers. Those VTWC services that stop at MKC in the peak can be similar.

Would you like to suggest a diagram where 4 standard class coaches are suitable? Bear in mind I have been on Penzance to Paddington 2+8 HSTs which are standing from Truro. There will be a significant number to Plymouth for which 5 cars is unsuitable. In Summer very few or even no trains to or from Penzance would be suitable for 5 cars.

 

[Noddy]

It's not monumentally stupid at all. There are many GWR long-distance services that carry primarily Reading passengers. Those VTWC services that stop at MKC in the peak can be similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

MKC is a better comparison being a similar distance out and of similar commuter importance (albeit slightly smaller in population terms but growing year on year and likely to end up larger over time). But MKC has an adequate local service, Reading doesn't.

MK already has a significantly larger population than Reading. c.250k compared to 150k.

 

[Envoy]

This is indeed the point. Swansea has generally more than half tipped out by Swindon, and Worcester by Oxford. The main determinant is how long ago was the previous Reading fast. If it was just 5 minutes before, things are quite good. If it's been 20 minutes or more, not so..

Some Swansea services can be packed out between Newport & Swansea during commuting hours. (The alternative is the even more packed out ATW trains).

 

[Taunton]

I suppose I just haven't chanced upon busy times across South Wales. Every time I've been down to Swansea the train has been extremely empty on arrival. The fact that the 8-coach GW train is commonly preceded by just a few minutes every hour by a 2-coach Arriva train probably has something to do with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MK already has a significantly larger population than Reading. c.250k compared to 150k.

It does, but others have correctly pointed out before that Reading has a larger population in its hinterland, therefore the station has a slightly larger catchment.

But MK is planned to get even bigger, so that will change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would you like to suggest a diagram where 4 standard class coaches are suitable? Bear in mind I have been on Penzance to Paddington 2+8 HSTs which are standing from Truro. There will be a significant number to Plymouth for which 5 cars is unsuitable. In Summer very few or even no trains to or from Penzance would be suitable for 5 cars.

I don't know the diagrams - but I suspect a reasonable number of Cardiff/Bristol services, probably not the Westcountry ones as you say.

Remember that these are 4 x 26m so a bit more space.

 

[coppercapped]

MK already has a significantly larger population than Reading. c.250k compared to 150k.

The figure you quote is for the Reading Borough Council unitary authority. Because of the way the boundaries run a large part of west Reading is administratively in West Berkshire and a large part of east Reading is in Wokingham District. For example a large part of the campus of the University of Reading - including most of the buildings - is administratively in Wokingham and the campus is only 1 1/2 miles from the town centre.

The urban area of Reading - including the nearby villages for which Reading is the effective hub - has a population of over 300k.

 

[FenMan]

The figure you quote is for the Reading Borough Council unitary authority. Because of the way the boundaries run a large part of west Reading is administratively in West Berkshire and a large part of east Reading is in Wokingham District. For example a large part of the campus of the University of Reading - including most of the buildings - is administratively in Wokingham and the campus is only 1 1/2 miles from the town centre.

The urban area of Reading - including the nearby villages for which Reading is the effective hub - has a population of over 300k.

Quite. And Reading is a major interchange for passengers originating from Gatwick, Redhill, Dorking, Guildford, Blackwater Valley (200,000 here alone), Wokingham, Bracknell and all stations to Staines (at least), all stations to Westbury (including Newbury), all stations west of Hayes & Harlington (including Slough and Maidenhead) and, further afield, Bournemouth, Southampton, Winchester, Basingstoke, Portsmouth, Brighton, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham, Bristol, Bath, Swindon, Swansea, Cardiff, Exeter, Plymouth and all stations to Penzance.

Did I mention Heathrow Airport transfers?

The number of passengers changing trains at Reading is only slightly less than the total usage of Milton Keynes Central. The comparison is ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite. And Reading is a major interchange for passengers originating from Gatwick, Redhill, Dorking, Guildford, Blackwater Valley (200,000 here alone), Wokingham, Bracknell and all stations to Staines (at least), all stations to Westbury (including Newbury), all stations west of Hayes & Harlington (including Slough and Maidenhead) and, further afield, Bournemouth, Southampton, Winchester, Basingstoke, Portsmouth, Brighton, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham, Bristol, Bath, Swindon, Swansea, Cardiff, Exeter, Plymouth and all stations to Penzance.

Did I mention Heathrow Airport transfers?

Very few or none of whom would need to change onto a service to London, as they've already got one direct from their origin. So those connections are utterly irrelevant to the idea of barring London to Reading passengers from the HSTs and having them instead use a dedicated fast EMU service. The situation with regard to London passengers is very similar to MKC.

I'm not suggesting removing the HST stops, I'm suggesting removing the commuters from packing them out by providing a proper Regional service for Regional needs (and either barring or heavily surcharging the use of the HSTs) like they would if it were in Germany.

 

[jimm]

This is indeed the point. Swansea has generally more than half tipped out by Swindon, and Worcester by Oxford. The main determinant is how long ago was the previous Reading fast. If it was just 5 minutes before, things are quite good. If it's been 20 minutes or more, not so.

Which Worcester peak services are the ones that are half-empty west of Oxford? You really should get out more before making sweeping claims like this - so should Mr Williams with his, yes, monumentally stupid assertion that the entire GWR express service is basically devoted to the needs of those awful Reading commuters.

I'd be interested to know how the 500+ people a number of Cotswold Line HST services are carrying when arriving at Oxford from the west or departing in that direction are going to fit into a five-car IET, or on all the other routes west of Reading where apparently five cars will do just fine... there is a reason why some Cotswold Line services - off-peak and contra-peak - are worked by 180s, while others - in the direction of the main peak flows - are worked by HSTs

And Neil, please don't start trying to compare the GMWL and WCML - in case you haven't noticed, the fleet of inner and outer-suburban rolling stock at GWR's disposal in the Thames Valley is scarcely changed since the day Thames Trains was privatised - which is why the long-distance services have to help - and HSTs are also deployed on some shorter-distance services, such as Didcot starters.

LM has rather more emus at its disposal than Silverlink did back in 1997 - which might just have something to do with the ever so slightly different service pattern on the southern end of the WCML.

GWR is simply unable to operate in the same way to Virgin and LM, and even when 387s start appearing, the limits on how many paths GWR will have at its disposal in future mean achieving a similar degree of segregation to MK in flows from and to Reading is highly unlikely, though a number of judiciously-timed 12-car 387s will probably soak up plenty of Reading passengers.

And as Fenman points out, there are one or two other reasons why long-distance services need to stop at Reading...

 

[coppercapped]

Very few or none of whom would need to change onto a service to London, as they've already got one direct from their origin. So those connections are utterly irrelevant to the idea of barring London to Reading passengers from the HSTs and having them instead use a dedicated fast EMU service. The situation with regard to London passengers is very similar to MKC.

I'm not suggesting removing the HST stops, I'm suggesting removing the commuters from packing them out by providing a proper Regional service for Regional needs (and either barring or heavily surcharging the use of the HSTs) like they would if it were in Germany.

This last suggestion would add another layer of complication to the already complex ticketing system by adding a 'service type' distinction to the 'time-of-day' distinction which already exists.

Off-peak tickets for use from London in the peak are already limited by train departure time, for example Off-Peak Travelcards issued at Reading can only be used on the stopping suburban services in the peak hours and not on longer distance trains.

The crowding issue affects trains west of Reading as well. Off-peak returns (SVR) from Reading to Swindon cannot be used on westbound peak hour trains from Reading.

Restriction Code: YC

APPLICABLE DAYS

Mondays to Fridays

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:10 and after 16:40 and before 18:31;

Reading after 04:29 and before 08:35 and after 17:10 and before 19:01

Which is a bit of a nuisance if one wants to attend IMechE or IET talks at Swindon in the evening! In this case there is a workround - a SVR to Reading to Didcot and another one Didcot to Swindon - neither of which have time restrictions, but the point remains - the trains remain full west of Reading.

 

[Steve14]

Very few or none of whom would need to change onto a service to London, as they've already got one direct from their origin. So those connections are utterly irrelevant to the idea of barring London to Reading passengers from the HSTs and having them instead use a dedicated fast EMU service. The situation with regard to London passengers is very similar to MKC.

I'm not suggesting removing the HST stops, I'm suggesting removing the commuters from packing them out by providing a proper Regional service for Regional needs (and either barring or heavily surcharging the use of the HSTs) like they would if it were in Germany.

Quite a steep piece of advice there! What's your thoughts on a proper regional service? If the demand is there, then it makes sense to use a train which had that capacity. As for 'providing proper regional service', what more can GWR do when their stock is currently under strain. It's not a case of waiting for an LM service just because the Virgin train is packed out or not running. GWML functions in a different way. Same goes for every other route. Just because something might work on one line, it doesn't mean it's going to work on another. If it had been that simple, then I guess routes wouldn't have been privatised. As for the figures for Reading, that's quite ridiculous because all those living on the outskirts whether it be Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Reading West, Mortimer, Earley, Winnersh and so forth come into Reading to make their 'proper travels' whether it be taking a HST into Paddington or West, CrossCountry services up north or south. Milton Keynes is a bad example to compare Reading to because the routes aren't as diverse, commuter demographics are much different, the LINE is completely different too.

 

[Taunton]

Which Worcester peak services are the ones that are half-empty west of Oxford? You really should get out more before making sweeping claims like this

Possibly I do get out a bit, because here is a post I made on this exact subject a while ago, travelling down on the grandly-titled Cathedrals Express.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2337049#post2337049

I think I was the only one in the coach by Shrub Hill, so well under half-empty. And returning the following early afternoon on a 180, the same applied. But standing inward from Reading.