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Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

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infobleep

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I was on a train from East Croydon that left East Croydon just 2 minutes late today but then slowed down on it's approach to Clapham Junction and ended up leaving 9 minutes late from there. Must have been an issue at Clapham Junction or Victoria around that time as it's unusual to be a that slow on the approach to Clapham Junction. So slow than one loses 7 minutes of time.

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Deepgreen

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I was on a train from East Croydon that left East Croydon just 2 minutes late today but then slowed down on it's approach to Clapham Junction and ended up leaving 9 minutes late from there. Must have been an issue at Clapham Junction or Victoria around that time as it's unusual to be a that slow on the approach to Clapham Junction. So slow than one loses 7 minutes of time.

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I can't remember the last time I had anything but a very slow journey between Wandsworth Common and Clapham Junction on the fast line, so losing significant time on that stretch is the norm in my experience.
 

infobleep

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I see some Thameslink trains today are being completely cancelled due to:
Congestion
More trains than usual needing repairs.

There was also a train that was part canceled due to congestion and many other trains delayed not part cancelled. It's a shame for passengers that they weren't able to use the trains completely cancelled due to congestion, to cover the service cancelled due to more trains needing repairs. However it was two up and down journeys that were cancelled so may be after that the rolling stock was back in use again.

On Southern services the delays were again:
Congestion
Staff displaced - they didn't specify which type of staff
Shortage of conductors

Does anyone know what was cause of the congestion? Most of today's problems don't seem to be staff related. No surprises there.

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Deepgreen

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I see some Thameslink trains today are being completely cancelled due to:
Congestion
More trains than usual needing repairs.

There was also a train that was part canceled due to congestion and many other trains delayed not part cancelled. It's a shame for passengers that they weren't able to use the trains completely cancelled due to congestion, to cover the service cancelled due to more trains needing repairs. However it was two up and down journeys that were cancelled so may be after that the rolling stock was back in use again.

On Southern services the delays were again:
Congestion
Staff displayed - they didn't specify which type of staff
Shortage of conductors

Does anyone know what was cause of the congestion? Most of today's problems don't seem to be staff related. No surprises there.

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How were the staff being displayed - framed?

The Redhill route was a mess yet again this morning. The 0831 to Victoria (the usual 377/6) was over 10L at Redhill and first class was almost full with standard class ticket holders, although no declassification was announced while I was aboard. The distinction between standard and first has almost vanished in so many peoples' eyes and enforcement is a thing of the past. Not a single word was announced throughout the whole journey, which finished 14L at Victoria. The scrolling display showed that "this train is ready to leave" all the way from East Croydon to Clapham Junction.
 

sarahj

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As I've said before, the issue with checking first class is getting to first class. (Mind your current issues might be something else.#). My first train this morning, the 5.23 BTN-VIC was fully checked, (removed 3 from first*) but after Croydon I was trapped and unable to check again. This train then comes back down as the 6.51 Vic to Hrh, which is supposed to split at Redhill with the rear 4 going to Tonbridge, which today it did not, so we took at 8 down to Horsham and then back as the 8.12 Hrh to Vic, which I took as far as Redhill, so the 8.50something from there was 12 instead of 8 car today. Good for some.

#But one thing you need to know is except for some services staffed by SET staff, no Southern train from Redhill is guaranteed a second member of staff anymore, so there might just be no-one on board to throw folks out of first, or even say anything. Both the 6.51 Viv to Hrh and the 8.12 back were marked as assist for me, so I'f I'm not there, the train will run, but no second staff member.

* one person I removed, claimed he had left his yearly pass at work. Made him buy another ticket, he would not pay first class, so removed him, then sold a ticket. Return. £43 please. Thats too much, look i only paid £30 odd last time, look I have the ticket (from last week). Thats off peak says I, plus I thought you had a yearly, well, errr. Can I have a single. Ok, £20 odd, -please. Pays up, but I bet he tried to sneak back in, oh and he had about 3 tickets for the last two weeks. So, I'm gonna put a report in.
 
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infobleep

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As I've said before, the issue with checking first class is getting to first class. (Mind your current issues might be something else.#). My first train this morning, the 5.23 BTN-VIC was fully checked, (removed 3 from first*) but after Croydon I was trapped and unable to check again. This train then comes back down as the 6.51 Vic to Hrh, which is supposed to split at Redhill with the rear 4 going to Tonbridge, which today it did not, so we took at 8 down to Horsham and then back as the 8.12 Hrh to Vic, which I took as far as Redhill, so the 8.50something from there was 12 instead of 8 car today. Good for some.

#But one thing you need to know is except for some services staffed by SET staff, no Southern train from Redhill is guaranteed a second member of staff anymore, so there might just be no-one on board to throw folks out of first, or even say anything. Both the 6.51 Viv to Hrh and the 8.12 back were marked as assist for me, so I'f I'm not there, the train will run, but no second staff member.

* one person I removed, claimed he had left his yearly pass at work. Made him buy another ticket, he would not pay first class, so removed him, then sold a ticket. Return. £43 please. Thats too much, look i only paid £30 odd last time, look I have the ticket (from last week). Thats off peak says I, plus I thought you had a yearly, well, errr. Can I have a single. Ok, £20 odd, -please. Pays up, but I bet he tried to sneak back in, oh and he had about 3 tickets for the last two weeks. So, I'm gonna put a report in.
So is there effectively any point in commuters who travel from Redhill buying a first class season ticket?

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IKB

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I was on a train from East Croydon that left East Croydon just 2 minutes late today but then slowed down on it's approach to Clapham Junction and ended up leaving 9 minutes late from there. Must have been an issue at Clapham Junction or Victoria around that time as it's unusual to be a that slow on the approach to Clapham Junction. So slow than one loses 7 minutes of time.

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Might have been a train coming off the Portsmouth line onto the fast at Streatham; a peak train stopping at Balham on the fast; a train from Streatham Hill being routed onto the fast; a queue of late running trains in each signal section; a longer than expected dwell time at Clapham - e.g. wheelchair etc etc. The possibilities are endless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone know what was cause of the congestion?

There are too many trains in the timetable.

And far too many trying to squeeze through East Croydon with the associated conflicts at South Croydon, Windmill Bridge, Selhurst junc etc.
 
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tsr

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I'd just like to pick up a few finer points of detail to see if I can clear them up.

I can't remember the last time I had anything but a very slow journey between Wandsworth Common and Clapham Junction on the fast line, so losing significant time on that stretch is the norm in my experience.

Yes, this is a problem, especially for some 2C stopping services from Horsham which get stuck behind very busy ex-South Coast services. I do try to report specifics, such as when one of my regular trains is caught up behind station work taking place in the platform ahead, but my understanding is that the broader timetabling can't effectively be made more efficient for at least a few months, given the December 2016 timetable is now rather well on its way. You would also notice distinct similarities with the way 2L services to East Grinstead get held up behind 1A Brighton services throughout much of the day, in the opposite direction. Granted it may not be the case for your trains, but some services have had longer running times added between Clapham Junction and Victoria to compensate, which does at least seem to have done some good for peak arrivals being in sequence. Ultimately, there is also a ripple effect far and wide across the network - for example, if your train is delayed by a 1F or 1H service from the coast, said service ahead will only have got ahead by the margin with which you have created separation by using the junctions at Windmill Bridge or Selhurst. Of course, this means that reliability right down to Haywards Heath and beyond is called into question.

The distinction between standard and first has almost vanished in so many peoples' eyes and enforcement is a thing of the past. Not a single word was announced throughout the whole journey, which finished 14L at Victoria. The scrolling display showed that "this train is ready to leave" all the way from East Croydon to Clapham Junction.

Believe it or not, I've actually noticed a reduction in First Class misuse over the last week or so, and I have no idea why! However, it could just be flukey, though I have been on trains at a variety of interesting hours of the day and it has been an oddly consistent picture. I think the newer 377s are always bound to have more of a problem, to be fair, and unless someone is guaranteed on board (see sarahj's post), persuasion not to misuse First is going to be very hard.

As for the PIS message, the "Stand Clear" message (or any of the other pre-set messages able to be set by the crew) will not clear until either another message code is entered, or until the PIS functions correctly and displays details of the next/current stop, or until the driver disables all the visual PIS displays (unlikely!). Although it looks illogical, there is no way within the Mitrac system for the crew to get that particular message to clear at a set time/speed/location. The only saving grace is that with so much disruption nowadays, remote PIS broadcasts warning of disruption may be triggered en-route, which can clear such messages. These may occur even at locations when an announcement or visual message wouldn't normally play. But instead, to remove the "Stand Clear" message, the driver/conductor could set a generic one like "Please keep aisles clear [etc.]", which would be announced audibly once, and then scroll visually until the PIS announces the next station. Sometimes, though, with the best will in the world, you just don't remember if you're very busy with other matters. As a member of train crew, you really can be. If that train only had a driver, they would have been...

But one thing you need to know is except for some services staffed by SET staff, no Southern train from Redhill is guaranteed a second member of staff anymore, so there might just be no-one on board to throw folks out of first, or even say anything. Both the 6.51 Viv to Hrh and the 8.12 back were marked as assist for me, so I'f I'm not there, the train will run, but no second staff member.

Almost. Southern services with SE drivers will have conductors (hard to piece together unless you have the diagramming info!), and all services operating between Redhill and Tonbridge have conductors, for the time being, including those with Southern drivers.
 
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neilm

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So is there effectively any point in commuters who travel from Redhill buying a first class season ticket?

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Nope, it one of things I check on real train times, it tells you now if it is DDO so you know if your ticket is going to be checked.
 

Bishopstone

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Any early opinion as to what might run on the Brighton mainline on ASLEF strike days?

Presumably Thameslink are not impacted, other than being much busier? Are Gatwick Express drivers coming out, or were they not part of the ballot, being wholly DOO already? Is there likely to be any Southern service on routes resourced from Brighton, Eastbourne and Barnham?

If it's only Thameslink running, I guess we're looking at queuing systems to prevent overcrowding. Gatwick would be difficult, as trains would be arriving from the south already full. In fact, I wonder whether Thameslink would be curtailed south of Three Bridges?
 

neilm

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Any early opinion as to what might run on the Brighton mainline on ASLEF strike days?

Presumably Thameslink are not impacted, other than being much busier? Are Gatwick Express drivers coming out, or were they not part of the ballot, being wholly DOO already? Is there likely to be any Southern service on routes resourced from Brighton, Eastbourne and Barnham?

If it's only Thameslink running, I guess we're looking at queuing systems to prevent overcrowding. Gatwick would be difficult, as trains would be arriving from the south already full. In fact, I wonder whether Thameslink would be curtailed south of Three Bridges?
Just Southern, Gatex will be fine as DOO and own pool of drivers who's dispute has already been resolved.

Although Thameslink cannot seem to run a full service at the moment so I have no faith in them being able to deliver either on a strike day.
 

Bishopstone

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Just Southern, Gatex will be fine as DOO and own pool of drivers who's dispute has already been resolved.

Although Thameslink cannot seem to run a full service at the moment so I have no faith in them being able to deliver either on a strike day.

Thanks.

Do the GatEx pool of drivers work all the Brighton extensions, or are some of those crewed by Southern drivers south of the airport?

The flakiness of Thameslink is indeed a concern in this context.
 

neilm

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Thanks.

Do the GatEx pool of drivers work all the Brighton extensions, or are some of those crewed by Southern drivers south of the airport?

The flakiness Thameslink is indeed a concern in this context.
f

I believe they do all of them now since the time table in December simplified this with half the trains going to Brighton but I am sure someone will be able to confirm this.
 

infobleep

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I see the 6.14 from Bedford has a note saying it is delayed due to a shortage of drivers. However it departed on time and is currently just 3 minutes late!

Does this mean they found a driver at the last minute or the one booked to run it got their in time or will it be that they switch drivers on route and they expect it to be delayed further down the line?

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So the longest delay for that train from Bedford, just three minutes! Wow. I've seen trains delayed for far longer with no reason given.

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Stew998

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I see the 6.14 from Bedford has a note saying it is delayed due to a shortage of drivers. However it departed on time and is currently just 3 minutes late!

Does this mean they found a driver at the last minute or the one booked to run it got their in time or will it be that they switch drivers on route and they expect it to be delayed further down the line?
I received a National Rail email alert telling me that there were problems on Thameslink due to a shortage of drivers between Bedford and Three Bridges. How does that work? Is there a surplus of drivers in Sussex?! Do they change drivers at Three Bridges?
 

GodAtum

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Nope, it one of things I check on real train times, it tells you now if it is DDO so you know if your ticket is going to be checked.

Interesting. I'm due to renew my season this week, but in the past year I dont think i've ever had my ticket checked from East Croydon - Victoria.
 

Deepgreen

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Nope, it one of things I check on real train times, it tells you now if it is DDO so you know if your ticket is going to be checked.

Did you mean DOO? Either way, nothing will tell you whether your ticket will be checked or not. It is depends on the loading of the train, where the second crew member decides to position themselves - I've had countless journeys where the guard has been working the train from the first class vestibule (on the 377/6s) and not even glanced at the passengers for the whole journey from Redhill to Victoria! - and how invisible the guard wants to be.

There is simply an extremely low chance of being checked these days, and first class is filling up accordingly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Farcical for the third weekday running today. Last night was dire again with the 1638 Blackfriars to Redhill yet again being held behind at least one, and possibly two, dividing trains at Redhill and losing huge amounts of time as a result. The timetable tells me I have from 1717 to 1743 at Redhill to get my Betchworth train, when catching the 1638 from Blackfriars. The staggeringly poor operating performance though (as on Friday), meant I missed the GWR (hourly connection) at Redhill by one minute (managed to get through the swamped subway and up to the other platform just in time to see it leaving past me!).

This morning I travelled via Reigate, and later than usual, only to find yet another abysmal state of affairs was unfolding. The 0913 was cancelled (turned short at Redhill) and we were informed of this at about 0930. However the screen (see photo) still showed the train as not only still running, but also ON TIME, until at least 0940! It obviously wasn't 'on time' from 0907 onwards!! It also described the train as being the 0902 from London Bridge, which it is not - it is a portion from the 0818 from London Bridge, forming the 0902 from Redhill. Staggeringly poor information yet again. We were advised to travel via Dorking (LITERALLY JUST AS A DORKING TRAIN HAD LEFT!!), and so had to await the next one. I eventually caught the 0957 to Victoria from Dorking, which ran late too, and was routed behind a series of stoppers all the way to Streatham Junction. Arrived at Victoria 15 late, at 1101, from an attempt to catch the 0913 from Reigate!!

It's genuinely hard to see how things can get much worse - today was not a strike day and the weather (although slightly frosty) was excellent - bone dry and calm - no leaves). The service falls apart every single day and no amount of 'Delay Repay' makes up for it in the slightest.
 

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neilm

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Did you mean DOO? Either way, nothing will tell you whether your ticket will be checked or not. It is depends on the loading of the train, where the second crew member decides to position themselves - I've had countless journeys where the guard has been working the train from the first class vestibule (on the 377/6s) and not even glanced at the passengers for the whole journey from Redhill to Victoria! - and how invisible the guard wants to be.

There is simply an extremely low chance of being checked these days, and first class is filling up accordingly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Farcical for the third weekday running today. Last night was dire again with the 1638 Blackfriars to Redhill yet again being held behind at least one, and possibly two, dividing trains at Redhill and losing huge amounts of time as a result. The timetable tells me I have from 1717 to 1743 at Redhill to get my Betchworth train, when catching the 1638 from Blackfriars. The staggeringly poor operating performance though (as on Friday), meant I missed the GWR (hourly connection) at Redhill by one minute (managed to get through the swamped subway and up to the other platform just in time to see it leaving past me!).

This morning I travelled via Reigate, and later than usual, only to find yet another abysmal state of affairs was unfolding. The 0913 was cancelled (turned short at Redhill) and we were informed of this at about 0930. However the screen (see photo) still showed the train as not only still running, but also ON TIME, until at least 0940! It obviously wasn't 'on time' from 0907 onwards!! It also described the train as being the 0902 from London Bridge, which it is not - it is a portion from the 0818 from London Bridge, forming the 0902 from Redhill. Staggeringly poor information yet again. We were advised to travel via Dorking (LITERALLY JUST AS A DORKING TRAIN HAD LEFT!!), and so had to await the next one. I eventually caught the 0957 to Victoria from Dorking, which ran late too, and was routed behind a series of stoppers all the way to Streatham Junction. Arrived at Victoria 15 late, at 1101, from an attempt to catch the 0913 from Reigate!!

It's genuinely hard to see how things can get much worse - today was not a strike day and the weather (although slightly frosty) was excellent - bone dry and calm - no leaves). The service falls apart every single day and no amount of 'Delay Repay' makes up for it in the slightest.
Yes I meant DOO it is strange though because on the trains I get sometimes it has a 'guard' but they just hide/sit in the cab, they make no announcements (instead the driver is doing everything) then once they get to where they required they then become a guard.

So it is DOO but guard is there.

But enjoy first class ;)
 

infobleep

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There was lots of delays it seems tonight with no reason given for much of the delays and these could be 20 minutes. Maybe the 20 minute delaya were not due to staff shortages so they decided not worth reporting the reasons in National Rail Enquiries. <D

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mugam4

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The service falls apart every single day and no amount of 'Delay Repay' makes up for it in the slightest.
Well now you say that. Getting 50% refunded for every single journey on the West Coastway during the revised timetable period was great! We've effectively had a 100% price increase since they reinstated all services ;)
 

tsr

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Yes I meant DOO it is strange though because on the trains I get sometimes it has a 'guard' but they just hide/sit in the cab, they make no announcements (instead the driver is doing everything) then once they get to where they required they then become a guard.

So it is DOO but guard is there.

But enjoy first class ;)

They may well be booked to "pass" on the service, which means they travel as a passenger and there are no requirements to work the service in any way until the diagram indicates. To put it another way, in this sort of case, the conductor is not involved in the running of the service and would usually intervene only in an emergency if a competent member of train crew is needed. The same also applies to OBSs, who sometimes travel "pass" for even longer distances due to conductors currently being required to work the services they use en-route, when in future such an OBS might theoretically be diagrammed to work them.

It must also be pointed out that travelling "pass" can take place during quite long stretches of the journeys of various trains. Brighton-Three Bridges, Leatherhead-Victoria, Horsham-Selhurst, and all sorts of journeys along the South Coast, are all regular examples for conductors.
 
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Deepgreen

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Well now you say that. Getting 50% refunded for every single journey on the West Coastway during the revised timetable period was great! We've effectively had a 100% price increase since they reinstated all services ;)

Indeed, but to me my time (especially in the evenings) is worth far more than the repay vouchers I receive!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes I meant DOO it is strange though because on the trains I get sometimes it has a 'guard' but they just hide/sit in the cab, they make no announcements (instead the driver is doing everything) then once they get to where they required they then become a guard.

So it is DOO but guard is there.

But enjoy first class ;)

I used to, but it's not up to much these days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dire again yesterday evening - I ventured home later than usual and hoped for an off-peak respite from the chaos. Wrong - the 1933 to Horsham (2x377/3 + 377/1 or /4) left London Bridge 20 late, with first class full of New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction and East Croydon chancers. Virtually before we had cleared the platform at London Bridge the scrolling message told us that 'this station has a short platform' - but it didn't say WHICH station! After NXG the same happened again, presumably this time referring to Norwood Junction. Disjointed information at its best! Not a word during the journey from the crew about the reason for the very late departure.

Remained 20 late all the way to Redhill, meaning that I came within a hair's breadth of missing my 2034 to Betchworth - the next train thereafter would have been the 2234!

It seems to be accepted now that everything is in chaos unless otherwise informed, and that no information is deemed necessary for this new standard state of service!
 
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GodAtum

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More strikes announced :mad:

ASLEF have announced strikes in addition to those already planned by the RMT.
• Tuesday 6 to Thursday 8 December (RMT strike)
• Tuesday 13 and Wednesday 14 December (ASLEF strike)
• Friday 16 December (ASLEF strike)
• Thursday 22 to Saturday 24 December (RMT strike)
• Saturday 31 December to Monday 2 January (RMT strike)
• Monday 9 to Saturday 14 January (ASLEF strike)
 

Barn

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Remained 20 late all the way to Redhill, meaning that I came within a hair's breadth of missing my 2034 to Betchworth - the next train thereafter would have been the 2234!

What do you do in that situation? Taxi? Are they easily obtained in Redhill station in times of delay?
 

tsr

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Dire again yesterday evening - I ventured home later than usual and hoped for an off-peak respite from the chaos. Wrong - the 1933 to Horsham (2x377/3 + 377/1 or /4) left London Bridge 20 late, with first class full of New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction and East Croydon chancers. Virtually before we had cleared the platform at London Bridge the scrolling message told us that 'this station has a short platform' - but it didn't say WHICH station! After NXG the same happened again, presumably this time referring to Norwood Junction. Disjointed information at its best! Not a word during the journey from the crew about the reason for the very late departure.

Remained 20 late all the way to Redhill, meaning that I came within a hair's breadth of missing my 2034 to Betchworth - the next train thereafter would have been the 2234!

Ah, the 1933 LBG-HRH. A very busy train as far as Coulsdon South and hardly one which could reasonably be considered "off-peak" these days, whatever the actual ticket restrictions for that time of day might say! The inbound working from East Grinstead was OK and I'm not 100% sure what would have caused the delay heading back out. I notice one or two Southern services into London Bridge were delayed quite heavily around that time, and I can't remember if the driver could have been on one of those.

First Class is pretty difficult to enforce on that train and many of the other "mainline" services around it, and I am aware of stories of a number of incidents of passengers being very abusive when asked to move on that service, or just refusing to do so, when in possession of Standard tickets. A big part of the problem is that at least two, if not more, of the First Class sections will not have dividing doors, as they are on the 377/3 units.

There is also the fact that although a conductor will still work this train from East Grinstead to London Bridge, they will be booked "Assist" when heading back out, as it is a Horsham service, meaning the train is actually operated DOO(P) and the requirement for a conductor to be present has been removed. This means there may not be any second person on board if their diagram is amended and they are moved to another train.

As for the PIS system glitch, it has been going for some time, and I'm afraid it seems there is no quick fix. All Southern 377s have the same problem of announcing short platforms after departure from the previous stop, but without mentioning which station it is for. The sequencing of announcements was juggled around a while ago and it no longer always makes sense for the more complex announcements such as these. Compare and contrast with the Thameslink 377/5s which are much better. At some locations they are also based on the "worst case scenario" of announcing the length of the shortest platform at the station, if the platform length varies and the train is unable to work out which line it is using in advance. There are ways of overriding it to make a manual announcement first, but of course this can't be done if dispatch or (for the conductor) other customer assistance is being made a priority.
 

Barn

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New message on National Rail Enquiries and on southernrailway.com:

Due to the industrial action by drivers in the ASLEF and RMT unions, regrettably we expect Southern services to be severely disrupted on every day from Tuesday 6 December until further notice.
 
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