Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[DT611]

Really, so why don't employees do as they are bloody told then?

They do when at work. However at the moment, workers on southern rail have to stand up for what they believe in, for the betterment of themselves and their families and the passengers. That, is very democratic, and if they were to win, would be a huge boost for the users of the railway.

The democratically elected government doesn't believe in nationalisation. What gives you the right to try and force the issue?

the issue of nationalisation isn't being forced.
If you want an example of an issue that is being forced, take a look at brexit. Only 17000000 believe in brexit, a majority don't, so what gives some the right to force the issue?

 

[infobleep]

Is the next SWT contract going to be a management contract .... need to introduce DDO in preparation for Crossrail 2

I don't think so. Stagecoach didn't want to take a profit cut, which is why the franchise wasn't extended.

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[highdyke]

They do when at work. However at the moment, workers on southern rail have to stand up for what they believe in, for the betterment of themselves and their families and the passengers. That, is very democratic, and if they were to win, would be a huge boost for the users of the railway.

I'm sure that's what they believe but it's not their decision to rid the railway of DOO. The Unions are dictating to everyone else what they think is safe.

the issue of nationalisation isn't being forced.
If you want an example of an issue that is being forced, take a look at brexit. Only 17000000 believe in brexit, a majority don't, so what gives some the right to force the issue?

This thread really is going to go on forever isn't it?

 

[infobleep]

I'm sure that's what they believe but it's not their decision to rid the railway of DOO. The Unions are dictating to everyone else what they think is safe.



This thread really is going to go on forever isn't it?

And the Government are trying to push through what they believe, safe or otherwise.

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[Astradyne]

Deleted .... double posting

 

[Moonshot]

They do when at work. However at the moment, workers on southern rail have to stand up for what they believe in, for the betterment of themselves and their families and the passengers. That, is very democratic, and if they were to win, would be a huge boost for the users of the railway.



the issue of nationalisation isn't being forced.
If you want an example of an issue that is being forced, take a look at brexit. Only 17000000 believe in brexit, a majority don't, so what gives some the right to force the issue?

What are the boosts for the users of the railway ?

 

[EssexGonzo]

Hear hear. Alas we don't count. We are just plebs.

Indeed. We're uneducated plebs. Self loading freight.

I've travelled on DOO main line services (12 coaches, busy stations) for many, many years now and am struggling to remember a time when a second member of staff would have been necessary.

Our drivers are excellent and seem to mostly be capable of driving the train, opening and closing doors as well as cheerfully keeping us up to date. And I can't recall any crashes. Especially none attributable to DOO.

Maybe there are some deep and meaningful reasons why this can't work on Southern (which would obviously be way beyond my comprehension) but the arguments thus far haven't stacked up. "Something might happen" as the counter argument to "nothing has happened on DOO trains" is just ludicrous.

 

[Astradyne]

It actually doesn't matter if it does or doesn't wash with you whether routes can cope with or not cope with "DOO" not DDO, doo. It matters to those working on the railway who will be working in the environment and will know the realities of either method.



Why is it wrong. DOO not DDO is an old method from a railway believed to be in decline looking to penny pinch wherever possible.

Thank you I had not realised my auto-correct was changing DOO to DDO, but driver doesn't operate seems an appropriate method of operation today.

So no change at any cost it is then. Evolution is obviously a very overestimated theory in the rail working community.

Imagine if the conversion from Steam to Diesel/Electric was happening today ... some good reason would come up as to why the fireman must be retained.

Guards are the new firemen

If it is so out dated, what method off operation is proposed for the UKs latest line, Crossrail, which is governed by TfL, not DfT

 

[DT611]

Thank you I had not realised my auto-correct was changing DOO to DDO, but driver doesn't operate seems an appropriate method of operation today.

So no change at any cost it is then. Evolution is obviously a very overestimated theory in the rail working community.

Imagine if the conversion from Steam to Diesel/Electric was happening today ... some could reason would come up as to why the fireman must be retained.

Guards are the new firemen

guards are not the new firemen. evolution isn't removing highly trained staff.

 

[Astradyne]

guards are not the new firemen. evolution isn't removing highly trained staff.

It is removing unnecessary staff, regardless of how well trained they are.

 

[Dave1987]

Indeed. We're uneducated plebs. Self loading freight.

I've travelled on DOO main line services (12 coaches, busy stations) for many, many years now and am struggling to remember a time when a second member of staff would have been necessary.

Our drivers are excellent and seem to mostly be capable of driving the train, opening and closing doors as well as cheerfully keeping us up to date. And I can't recall any crashes. Especially none attributable to DOO.

Maybe there are some deep and meaningful reasons why this can't work on Southern (which would obviously be way beyond my comprehension) but the arguments thus far haven't stacked up. "Something might happen" as the counter argument to "nothing has happened on DOO trains" is just ludicrous.

The dispatch method is totally different to what happens on Southern. Compared to Northern the distances between stations is tiny.

 

[Domh245]

I realise that we are all just going round in circles for about the 100th time........but can anyone just confirm when did 12-coach Thameslink trains actually start operating without a guard ?

Thank you.

I think it would have been shortly after the introduction of the class 377/5s, so 2008/09 ish.

 

[Dave1987]

It is removing unnecessary staff, regardless of how well trained they are.

Matter of opinion.

 

[EssexGonzo]

The dispatch method is totally different to what happens on Southern. Compared to Northern the distances between stations is tiny.

No Northern. A very, very busy London commuter and mainline. A little bit like Southern.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

BBC News reporting breaking news that Southern have LOST in the Court of Appeal and the Aslef strikes can go ahead.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Thank you I had not realised my auto-correct was changing DOO to DDO, but driver doesn't operate seems an appropriate method of operation today.

So no change at any cost it is then. Evolution is obviously a very overestimated theory in the rail working community.

Imagine if the conversion from Steam to Diesel/Electric was happening today ... some good reason would come up as to why the fireman must be retained.

Guards are the new firemen

If it is so out dated, what method off operation is proposed for the UKs latest line, Crossrail, which is governed by TfL, not DfT

Crossrail's predecessor, AGA Metro, had been DOO for years, if not decades! No-brainer, espeially as it'll be more like a tube line than a National Rail line.

 

[Dave1987]

No Northern. A very, very busy London commuter and mainline. A little bit like Southern.

Sorry I know exactly which line you are talking about. I'm just saying the dispatch methods are totally different to what happens in Southern land. And the distances between stations isn't huge.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Sorry I know exactly which line you are talking about. I'm just saying the dispatch methods are totally different to what happens in Southern land. And the distances between stations isn't huge.

For what reasons?

 

[infobleep]

BBC News reporting breaking news that Southern have LOST in the Court of Appeal and the Aslef strikes can go ahead.

Good news if you support the strikes as I do. I wonder how much this appeal has cost GTR? Perhaps someone might ha here figures of he combined action.

ASLEF was rumoured to be half a million wasn't it and that was just one court appearance. This has been two apparences.

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[Astradyne]

Crossrail's predecessor, AGA Metro, had been DOO for years, if not decades! No-brainer, espeially as it'll be more like a tube line than a National Rail line.

I had assumed as the majority of the services is running on NR rails ..... that would be the case, can you expand a bit more as to why (as highlighted) this might not be the case?

 

[Robertj21a]

I think it would have been shortly after the introduction of the class 377/5s, so 2008/09 ish.

Thanks for that, I thought someone had suggested it was even earlier.

 

[Dave1987]

For what reasons?

There is no dispatch by terrible body side cameras.

 

[XDM]

There is no dispatch by terrible body side cameras.

1985 mirrors,platform monitors & look back out of the cab window. All done safely on 12 car trains,& without fuss, all the way to Colchester & Ipswich by cheerful & helpful Essex drivers.

 

[highdyke]

BBC News reporting breaking news that Southern have LOST in the Court of Appeal and the Aslef strikes can go ahead.

Nuclear option next then..

 

[Dave1987]

......

 

[AnonymousUser1]

guards are not the new firemen. evolution isn't removing highly trained staff.

really ?

looks very much like it to anyone who actually understandards service transformation and improvement ...

 

[JohnRegular]

I have been lurking on this forum for a while, and have seen this thread rehashing the same old issues.

But one thing I have only seen mentioned in passing is how much guards reduce fare-dodging. I know that on many of the local services in south Hampshire, where I do most of my rail travel, there are normally a few people, mostly teenagers, who won't buy a ticket unless and until a guard comes around to check tickets. If not they will alight at a station without barriers, or where the barriers are usually open. No doubt this happens all over the network.

This may not be a problem on commuter trains, where most people have a season ticket, but on other services I imagine guards must sell a few quid's worth of tickets. If it was well known that trains were DOO then I would think there would be a significant increase in fare dodgers, because they know they'll always get away with it. How much does this factor into the DOO cost-benefit analysis?

 

[Carlisle]

They had a single, one day strike. That is it. Before that East Midlands drivers had a strike many many years ago when the company tried to force drivers to leave the Railway Pensions scheme to go onto a company pensions scheme. You make it sound like ASLEF are striking at the drop of a hat every time there is an 'R' in the month!!

I accept ASLEFs record on avoiding strikes on national rail has been good in recent times, but it's plainly obvious to all that it's now become bored and frustrated with being a dull moderate union and has now clearly signed up for full membership of the RMT school of radicalism, revolution and militancy

 

[DT611]

I accept ASLEFs record on avoiding strikes on national rail has been good in recent times, but it's plainly obvious to all that it's now become bored and frustrated with being a dull moderate union and has now clearly signed up for full membership of the RMT school of radicalism, revolution and militancy

they're is no such school. Neither union are militant. the only thing the RMT are guilty of is not being good at communicating the issue and misguidedly paying respects to dictators.

 

[craigybagel]

I accept ASLEFs record on avoiding strikes on national rail has been good in recent times, but it's plainly obvious to all that it's now become bored and frustrated with being a dull moderate union and has now clearly signed up for full membership of the RMT school of radicalism, revolution and militancy

Are you suggesting such a high percentage of drivers voted to give up pay at Christmas because they're bored?!