Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Can you explain your reason for making such a statement coupled to any facts that would back it up?
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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Can you explain your reason for making such a statement coupled to any facts that would back it up?
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Didnt Southern originally offer to work with the unions in order to at least try and draw up a set of circumstances that would be acceptable to all parties ?
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RMT were only ever going to go hard here. GTR have proven to not respect local agreements agreed in good faith (see ASLEF and the 12 car GatEx dispute) - so the RMT view would have been that if you give GTR any reason to run without an OBS, they'll use any reason to run without an OBS and hence get rid of them immediately.
I'm really not that surprised, the concessions ASLEF appeared to be demanding publicly anyway were never realistically achievable without almost a complete u turn by Southern on their future plans
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I noticed you dodged the point about local agreements already been ignored. You really are quite selective in your arguments. Please can you put aside your union hatred for a second and address the point.
On a second point regarding 12 car trains on Thameslink. How many of those stop at completely unmanned stations?
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I don't hate unions, and highly suspect management would have been perfectly willing to make concessions and/or suspend plans until staffing and cctv issues etc had been sorted out to both sides satisfaction, but if ASLEF simply said no more DOO outside the established routes, are you really surprised there was no agreement?
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I feel that I would like to post on here, but I do admit to not reading the previous 560 pages.
Secondly I am not going to enter the who is in the wrong argument because I do not really know all the ins and outs.
What is obvious to me, is that the railways are busier and more expensive than they have ever been, the loyal customers are putting loads of money into the pot of the TOCs and the Government, why change methods of operation and generate these pointless strikes if things were not broken?
Secondly I am not going to enter the who is in the wrong argument because I do not really know all the ins and outs.
What is obvious to me, is that the railways are busier and more expensive than they have ever been, the loyal customers are putting loads of money into the pot of the TOCs and the Government, why change methods of operation and generate these pointless strikes if things were not broken?
Well once again you have completely dodged the point! The union had local agreements which were completely flouted. Any comments on that?
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AnonymousUser1
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it just demonstrates how far out of touch the unions and the crayonistas are with the reality of the modern world ...
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AnonymousUser1
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there you go using facts and looking at the big picture rather than shroud waving and cherry picking a small part of the fact that suits the shroud waving agenda.
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AnonymousUser1
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exceptional corcumstances being that no member of suitably qualified staff is available - so rather than cancel the train it runs without the OBS...
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
I feel that I would like to post on here, but I do admit to not reading the previous 560 pages.
Secondly I am not going to enter the who is in the wrong argument because I do not really know all the ins and outs.
What is obvious to me, is that the railways are busier and more expensive than they have ever been, the loyal customers are putting loads of money into the pot of the TOCs and the Government, why change methods of operation and generate these pointless strikes if things were not broken?
In simple terms it's down to politics. Having secured the first Conservative majority since 1997 there are right wing elements in the government happy to resume a Thatcherite way of doing things which is essentially to bulldoze their policies through regardless of any opposition. We have seen it in the National Health Service, in the Prison Service and now on the railway. Remember that unlike anywhere else on the network GTR, which operates Southern, is to all intents and purposes a management contract rather than a franchise. This means it will do as it is told by the DfT and by extension the minister. And Thatcherite policy is always to reduce staffing levels by as much as possible with little thought for the broader consequences.
If your statement is true, and many will agree that it is, it means that GTR is free to allow the role to disappear through natural wastage until the point is reached where all their services are single-crewed bar the occasional appearance by roving RPIs. Of course at present they are getting rid of RPIs to fill the OBS role. The conclusion is obvious hence RMT's concerns!
Once you have a set of circumstances that trains can run without an OBS it becomes a slippery slope. The sickness line I don't buy as it gives GTR a license having the very bare minimum with no spares or covers. Like Dave has mentioned several times to Carlisle now, GTR have gone against local agreements in the past and their reputation for upholding agreements is ruined beyond the point of no return. Look at the reason ASLEF are now out on strike, primarily caused because GTR introduced a different working practice on the Horsham line with no consultation. Instead they ran off to the courts several times to get an injunction instead of negotiation.
GTR are seeking natural wastage in this OBS grade. One of Horton's reports commissioned by the RSSB suggested it as a way forward. Don't replace the staff. If trains can run without an OBS then that's the nail in the coffin.
There are massive concerns from drivers over how DOO is getting out of hand and the safety implications of how crap the equipment actually is. Even Sky News has now picked up on it http://news.sky.com/story/southern-...ke-because-they-fear-killing-someone-10696036
GTR are seeking natural wastage in this OBS grade. One of Horton's reports commissioned by the RSSB suggested it as a way forward. Don't replace the staff. If trains can run without an OBS then that's the nail in the coffin.
There are massive concerns from drivers over how DOO is getting out of hand and the safety implications of how crap the equipment actually is. Even Sky News has now picked up on it http://news.sky.com/story/southern-...ke-because-they-fear-killing-someone-10696036
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The invitation to tender for the TSGN contract made clear that DOO must be introduced for all routes which run through the Thameslink core.
Horsham via Gatwick Airport will become a Thameslink service in 2018.
Therefore, before that time, it must transition to DOO.
I believe that ASLEF were consulted, but that they think the consultation was merely a "tick in the box" exercise. Knowing what we do about Sgt Wilko, you too might very well think that - I couldn't possibly comment.
tsr
Established Member
Some of the first Southern routes to convert to DOO(P) in the current scheme over the last couple of months have been those which are not proposed as part of the TL network from 2018. I give you Redhill-Reigate and Dorking-Horsham.
Admittedly DOO(P) to Reigate was rolled out at the same time as Horsham-Crawley/Three Bridges, the latter being a proposed TL route.
All I will say is that the next few weeks may well demonstrate that routes proposed for Thameslink operation do not necessarily match the order of those going over to DOO(P).
Spell it out 1987.. Otherwise 'indeed I've heard..' will be seen as just getting a rumour going.
Except of course the absence of suitably qualified staff will become standard as they wont be rostered so the train will run. If it said if the rostered member of staff was unavailable it might work however once they start running like that the Gat Ex experience
Except all the RPIs have gone! They are now OBS but probably retain the right to issue penalty notices.
Robertj21a
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If that's all true (I have no reason to doubt it) it seems very strange that Southern is now recruiting externally for new staff to join them in the OBS role.
Oh - give it a bloody rest with the idealogical politically loaded hyperbole. :roll:
It's like a poor condition piece of vinyl you find at a local music fair. A Broken Record...
yeh they do, but its unlikely they will put themselves in danger of conflict as they are on their own rather than in pairs or more....
Robertj21a
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on short term contracts
Are they ? - there's nothing about short term contracts in papers I've seen.
Yes the contact is just 1 year.
The usual misinformation from the union side. Many Japanese lines are not only DOO but on at least two rural lines the driver cleans the toilet & takes fares like a bus driver. Australia,every commuter train in the cities of Adelaide,Perth & Melbourne are DOO & have been for years. In Melbourne wheelchair passengers wait at the first passenger door & the drivers help them in. The drivers we spoke to enjoyed helping & the short,30 sec,break from looking ahead.
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