Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[LateThanNever]

Nope, sorry, not a chance. Personal and political attacks are the order of the day :P

But seriously, I managed to find a video from the RSSB explaining their view on DOO. I'd disagree with some of his arguments, particularly about how the use of DOO on LU proves that DOO (as a general system) is safe. LU have off train cameras which give a far wider view of the train and the platform, compared to the rather narrow field of view that you get with bodyside cameras, not to mention that the screens on LU stay on until the train has left the platform and in most cases, are on ATO lines where the driver can actually monitor the train as it leaves the platform - unlike the mainline

https://play.buto.tv/GlDtl

Quite.
And "No increasing risk from taking guards off trains" he says. He doesn't state what the risk is but that cannot include passenger on board well being, vandalism, cleanliness or even being later than usual surely?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It's all part of the race to the bottom Dave. The race began in Thatchers era and has gathered pace in recent years. What people fail to realise is that if it wasn't for unions, they wouldn't be enjoying the employment rights they had. I use the term 'had' because since the Tories divide and rule policies, those rights are slowly being eroded.

there has only been one 'erosion' of employment rights in recent hisotry and that was reverting back to 2 years service for full rightd

Zero hour contracts,

have existed for decades, although their use may have increased

fees to go to a tribunal to obtain your rights,

like all HMCTS fees there is a remission policy - which would mean for many the ' bottom ' of pile there is no charge

but of course facts like this doesn't suit the agenda of the leftist rent a mob

now threat to ban strikes because a union has had the temerity to stand up to the masters in power.

the Southern Rail dispute is ridiculous especially given that DOO is fully implemented elsewhereo nthe NR network and on Metro type operatiosn ( although admitted lU and TWM are shorter car lengths and numberso f cars)

People turn on themselves, fighting for the scraps thrown them whilst the rich get richer. Kicking the person one rung below them on the ladder whilst they are kicked from the person above them. Sad isn't the word.

like the CWU you mean ? biggest bunch of kick the ones below out ... kick the RM casuals and encourage the casuals to kick the agency scum ... where other Unions in industries with high levels of flexible staffing use either encourage membership or include agency colleagues in their lines of thought under the collective representation over workplace conditiosn stuff .
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Quite.
And "No increasing risk from taking guards off trains" he says. He doesn't state what the risk is but that cannot include passenger on board well being, vandalism, cleanliness or even being later than usual surely?

given that guards hide in the back cab claiming they need to be there for ' safety critical reasons '...

 

[DT611]

the Southern Rail dispute is ridiculous especially given that DOO is fully implemented elsewhereo nthe NR network and on Metro type operatiosn ( although admitted lU and TWM are shorter car lengths and numberso f cars)

It's not ridiculous at all, it's very very correct just and necessary. DOO is only on a small part of the network and it's extension must be stopped and ideally the rest rolled back.

given that guards hide in the back cab claiming they need to be there for ' safety critical reasons '...

A small few. Not the vast majority. Try a believable lie that hasn't been debunked.

 

[highdyke]

and ideally the rest rolled back.
.

Get ready for more fare increases to save 1 life in the next 50 year at best...And ten years of strikes
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Please don't start the overpaid argument. Pure jealousy.

Bit like the stuff about managers and shareholders eh?
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Thought you said you were leaving.

Nah, like ASLEF not giving over that easily.
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Well this thread has gone from a fairly reasonable discussion to utter drivel. If people are going to start calling people who are in a trade union "communists" and "weak minded" then I'm having nothing to do with it.

Well never stopped you when some people were being accused of being hard right and believing everything they read in right wing papers

 

[theageofthetra]

How many other 'first world' countries use DOO on high density metro type rail operations? From my own personal experience Japan has at least two on every train with 3-4 assisting dispatch. China- similar with up to 5 dispatching using a stool to see over the heads on a platform. Australia -similar to Japan with the guard having a door open on arrival and departure to check for any PTI issues.

 

[infobleep]

In summary, Mick Cash, of the RMT, turned up for talks between GTR and a train drivers' craft union, to which he was of course, not invited in the first place.

Probably true but it makes for good press coverage. I'm sure the journalists don't care about a small point such as that.

I wonder would three way talks help? I mean lots of companies told talks between multiple departments or teams at once.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Phil.]

You clearly missed the bit where I said I have done both.

I have been armed forces, police officer for 10 years (armed for half my career) and now work on the railway.

So I know exactly what I am talking about.

In that case I find your statement extraordinary.
I stand by my remarks/comments.
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Probably true but it makes for good press coverage. I'm sure the journalists don't care about a small point such as that.

I wonder would three way talks help? I mean lots of companies told talks between multiple departments or teams at once.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Not probably true, actually true.

 

[infobleep]

In that case I find your statement extraordinary.
I stand by my remarks/comments.
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Not probably true, actually true.

The question is, why did they not wish to invite them or are ACAS talks only allowed between two parties and never any more?

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[Astradyne]

So utilities like gas, electric and water are not 'essential services'?

Yes, so how would you feel if your electricity company said we were stopping supply to your county for 4 days next week .... due to a industrial dispute over christmas .... would you support them?

 

[Legzr1]

Yes, so how would you feel if your electricity company said we were stopping supply to your county for 4 days next week .... due to a industrial dispute over christmas .... would you support them?

Poor comparison really.

There are those working in the city (for the relatively huge pay) but live in the sticks (for the relatively low rent/mortgage) who forget there are alternatives - car, bike, bus, taxi, etc etc - if your electricity is cut off there aren't too many alternatives are there?

I suppose a battery would be handy.

 

[Carlisle]

How many other 'first world' countries use DOO on high density metro type rail operations? .

Germany, Switzerland, France, Australia, Ireland Denmark are a few i can think of and there's not that many city underground systems worldwide still using traditional guards on all lines these days either

 

[AlterEgo]

Probably true but it makes for good press coverage. I'm sure the journalists don't care about a small point such as that.

I wonder would three way talks help? I mean lots of companies told talks between multiple departments or teams at once.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Ah, now this is because GTR's strategy is to isolate the RMT and cut a deal with ASLEF.

This strategy is going to be a successful one because of the PR benefits:

- GTR can claim they cut a fair deal and aren't intransigent buggers at all
- ASLEF will get their pound of flesh (and probably a pay or terms deal)
- RMT are industrially and politically isolated, the real targets of this strategy, being shown as militants who couldn't strike a deal

This is the endgame on Southern. It is sad for the RMT, who have been shown to be entirely incompetent throughout this dispute. BBC were *still* running stories last night saying the dispute is over "who gets to close the doors". Bob Crow would never have let it get like this.

I think the next RMT leadership election will be interesting.

 

[infobleep]

So why did it take so long to get to ACAS? Surely GTR could have saved some money and time by going to ACAS in the first place rather than the courts?

Perhaps they might consider changing their lawyers

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[Robertj21a]

Ah, now this is because GTR's strategy is to isolate the RMT and cut a deal with ASLEF.

This strategy is going to be a successful one because of the PR benefits:

- GTR can claim they cut a fair deal and aren't intransigent buggers at all
- ASLEF will get their pound of flesh (and probably a pay or terms deal)
- RMT are industrially and politically isolated, the real targets of this strategy, being shown as militants who couldn't strike a deal

This is the endgame on Southern. It is sad for the RMT, who have been shown to be entirely incompetent throughout this dispute. BBC were *still* running stories last night saying the dispute is over "who gets to close the doors". Bob Crow would never have let it get like this.

I think the next RMT leadership election will be interesting.

This is one time when I can actually agree to something on this thread.

In the past 48 hours, the BBC has still been saying that the dispute is over who opens/closes the doors, I was genuinely surprised to still hear that. If, as you say, Bob Crow had still been around he would have killed that statement many months ago - indeed, about the time that his replacement was still ranting on about virtually everything else - except *safety*.
The current RMT senior officials have been hopeless at explaining what their key concerns are, have failed to recognise the importance of a professional presence within the media, and no longer have a figurehead who is capable of forcefully pushing the RMT point of view.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's not ridiculous at all, it's very very correct just and necessary. DOO is only on a small part of the network and it's extension must be stopped and ideally the rest rolled back.



A small few. Not the vast majority. Try a believable lie that hasn't been debunked.

DOO will never be rolled back. Throughout the developed world the move towards increased automation and a shrinking, deskilled workforce is gaining ever increasing momentum. It has profound social and economic consequences which we as humans are not geared up for.

 

[mrbluelips]

Interesting article from BBC Fact Check:

"Despite union claims, there’s been no increase in injuries at stations over the past 10 years"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38308399

 

[Astradyne]

Poor comparison really.y

There are those working in the city (for the relatively huge pay) but live in the sticks (for the relatively low rent/mortgage) who forget there are alternatives - car, bike, bus, taxi, etc etc - if your electricity is cut off there aren't too many alternatives are there?

I suppose a battery would be handy.

Have a back up generator, solar panels, or mini turbine .... gas / bottled gas for cookIng ...

So are you saying the people supplying your electricity have no right to strike?

 

[Legzr1]

So your poor comparison becomes a rediculous analogy...

Don't put words in my mouth, thanks - it's quite clear what I said.

 

[AlterEgo]

So why did it take so long to get to ACAS? Surely GTR could have saved some money and time by going to ACAS in the first place rather than the courts?

Perhaps they might consider changing their lawyers

Because you and I know GTR are doing the Government's bidding.

Taking ASLEF to court was important because it ended up being (predictably) an obvious and total victory for ASLEF. This is important in context because the entire idea is to portray RMT as completely incompetent and irrelevant, and undermine member faith in the RMT's (political) leadership - the best way to do that is to have ASLEF as an example of "how it should be done".

ASLEF is a significantly different beast to the RMT. They are smaller, leaner, less political and understand the value of cutting a deal.

Confucius - “The green reed which bends in the wind is stronger than the mighty oak which breaks in a storm.”

 

[BestWestern]

What are peoples views on the acceptable length of DOO trains?

Class 153 only...

 

[LowLevel]

Class 153 only...

What, the only train where in the event of pretty much any serious issue you need to make an uncontrolled evacuation immediately, only to find that some knuckle dragging idiot has ignored the signs and left a load of junk blocking the driver's door? Rather not!

I don't think length has much to do with it - if only because a guard on a shorter train is going to see far more of it and it's surroundings than any camera, so it actually increases the effectiveness of guard dispatch if anything (though I will accept it may also reduce risks of driver only dispatch).

Ironically I spend most of my time dealing with issues on 1-4 carriage trains

 

[Tetchytyke]

Interesting article from BBC Fact Check:

"Despite union claims, there’s been no increase in injuries at stations over the past 10 years"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38308399

A very interesting article indeed, given that the RSSB's own annual safety performance report for 2015/16 states this at page 43:

The overall level of harm at the PTI increased by 48% in 2015/16 compared with the previous year. This is due to the relatively high number of fatalities that occurred during the year.

When considered separately, the level of harm for boarding/alighting events increased slightly, while the level of harm for other accidents at the PTI more than doubled.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...nnual-safety-performance-report-2015-2016.pdf

So much for fact checking

 

[AlterEgo]

A very interesting article indeed, given that the RSSB's own annual safety performance report for 2015/16 states this at page 43:

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...nnual-safety-performance-report-2015-2016.pdf

So much for fact checking

The same graph shows that, while 2015/16 saw a slight rise, there has been an overall downward trend in PTI incidents, and the normalised rate is much lower than it was ten years ago.

None of this is directly attributable to DOO, however.

 

[Deepgreen]

Interesting article from BBC Fact Check:

"Despite union claims, there’s been no increase in injuries at stations over the past 10 years"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38308399

From the BBC also - Chris Haughton is the CEO of GTR!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The same graph shows that, while 2015/16 saw a slight rise, there has been an overall downward trend in PTI incidents, and the normalised rate is much lower than it was ten years ago.

The normalised rate is slightly lower, but the mean figures are higher than a decade ago. But when we're talking about 13 incidents per billion passenger journeys, it's really hard to draw any meaningful statistics out, because one fatality will skew everything so much.

My point was more that the BBC's fact check has stated a conclusion that, quite simply, is not evidenced by the report.

 

[AlterEgo]

The normalised rate is slightly lower, but the mean figures are higher than a decade ago. But when we're talking about 13 incidents per billion passenger journeys, it's really hard to draw any meaningful statistics out, because one fatality will skew everything so much.

My point was more that the BBC's fact check has stated a conclusion that, quite simply, is not evidenced by the report.

Yes, that's fair enough. As I said earlier, they were also on about the dispute being "about who closes the doors", something that every single party in this thread would disagree with, regardless of standpoint on the matter. It really is very lazy journalism.

 

[Carlisle]

Class 153 only...

So even if you totally buy the arguments ASLEF are making in the media etc about longer trains, do we realistically think they're willingly going to start negotiating DOO/DCO/DCD agreements soon, for the likes of 153s , if the answer is no their whole publlicly stated position anyway is rather flawed

 

[JamesTT]

From the BBC also - Chris Haughton is the CEO of GTR!

Shame they didn't say Charles Hawtrey is the CEO

 

[Dave1987]

Well now this discussion has gone back to being a proper one I will add a couple of points.

If the company is claiming an OBS will be on every service expect in "exceptional circumstances", why have they not disclosed those circumstances? Potentially embarrassing?

At my TOC there is a very good working relationship with management and Aslef because the company sticks to local agreements and negotiates in good faith. That's why even though there have been small disputes over the years ASLEF have never gone near balloting bar one occasion. Certainly it would seem in this case the management are only allowed to negotiate as far as the government will let them even though Grayling claims it's a private industrial matter and nothing to do with him... Yeah right!!

 

[physics34]

Well now this discussion has gone back to being a proper one I will add a couple of points.

If the company is claiming an OBS will be on every service expect in "exceptional circumstances", why have they not disclosed those circumstances? Potentially embarrassing?

At my TOC there is a very good working relationship with management and Aslef because the company sticks to local agreements and negotiates in good faith. That's why even though there have been small disputes over the years ASLEF have never gone near balloting bar one occasion. Certainly it would seem in this case the management are only allowed to negotiate as far as the government will let them even though Grayling claims it's a private industrial matter and nothing to do with him... Yeah right!!

the "exception circumstances" that have been mentioned were if a) a OBS was sick or b) an OBS has been disrupted....

this opens up a chasm that could easily abused, and most of us are sure they will be able to use it to eventually get rid of all OBSs or have them from agencies on minimum wages.

Trains that have been booked with an OBS have already run without one, so they are already abusing the system, aledgedly.