Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Eccles1983]

My eldest is a Police Officer of six years. Before making a sweeping statement like that I'd ask if you've any idea about the mentally and physically demanding job a Policeman might face. How many train drivers might have to face an armed person, how many train drivers might have to deal with finding a body that's been gently decomposing in a flat for three weeks, how many train drivers might deal with five mouthy kids taunting him whilst filming the situation on their 'phone waiting for him to say or do something which will be posted on YouTube? Ask the several policemen who have posted on this site about why they've left or considering leaving the force to become a train driver.

You clearly missed the bit where I said I have done both.

I have been armed forces, police officer for 10 years (armed for half my career) and now work on the railway.

So I know exactly what I am talking about.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Well this thread has gone from a fairly reasonable discussion to utter drivel. If people are going to start calling people who are in a trade union "communists" and "weak minded" then I'm having nothing to do with it. For what it's worth my ASLEF journal is rarely read when it comes through as it far far too political. ASLEF at local level is far better. Anyway until this returns to a reasonable discussion about operating practices I'm out.

It's all part of the race to the bottom Dave. The race began in Thatchers era and has gathered pace in recent years. What people fail to realise is that if it wasn't for unions, they wouldn't be enjoying the employment rights they had. I use the term 'had' because since the Tories divide and rule policies, those rights are slowly being eroded. Zero hour contracts, fees to go to a tribunal to obtain your rights, now threat to ban strikes because a union has had the temerity to stand up to the masters in power.
People turn on themselves, fighting for the scraps thrown them whilst the rich get richer. Kicking the person one rung below them on the ladder whilst they are kicked from the person above them. Sad isn't the word.

 

[Tio Terry]

Southern would have had to submit their Risk Assessments to the ORR and DfT for the change in operational procedures. It would be interesting if these were made public so that the travelling public at large could pass their own judgement on them!

 

[ModernRailways]

despite decades of experience with DOO on NR north of the thames and the arrangements in Scotland plus the experience of LU , T+W metro etc etc etc

I don't think using the T&W Metro is an ideal argument in favour of DOO. They had multiple issues in dispatch. Drivers closing doors and not checking the platform at all. Drivers checking the platform, closing the doors and someone ran for the train and got dragged along the platform. SPADs because driver is distracted by dispatch procedures (they have an in-cab system that tells them to re-check the platform and check the signal is a proceed aspect).

It was posted earlier in this thread but Metro released a video of people holding doors etc. In a couple of the clips it was clear that drivers weren't performing their dispatch procedures correctly.

Also, a Metro is more the length of a 3 car Class 377 and all the platforms (with 2(?) exceptions) are straight. A 12 car train in a curved platform is significantly different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southern would have had to submit their Risk Assessments to the ORR and DfT for the change in operational procedures. It would be interesting if these were made public so that the travelling public at large could pass their own judgement on them!

Would a FOI not potentially work? Unless the Govt want to hide it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Southern would have had to submit their Risk Assessments to the ORR and DfT for the change in operational procedures. It would be interesting if these were made public so that the travelling public at large could pass their own judgement on them!

Would the very detailed risk assessments submitted to the ORR/DfT really be all that interesting to the general public ? To me, issues such as this need to be left to those professionals who best understand such matters.

 

[theblackwatch]

Go read the incredibly biased ASLEF journal.

Well I've looked through the last two issues of the ASLEF journal (November/December 2016) and can find no mention of drivers being working class. The closest I have found is reference to "Tory attacks on the working-classes and trade unions, dangers facing the NHS and education, and the need for affordable housing and transport". And I've yet to see any press quote or statement from ASLEF referring to drivers as being working class, and assume you couldn't find one either given you didn't supply any links to back up your misguided view.

 

[Fincra5]

It is illegal for very many employees, for example the police and Armed Forces. They provide "essential services". Is the railway essential?

FWIW I do not agree that railway strikes should be made illegal - far from it.

The railway can hardly be seen as an essential service if it can be privatised and run for profit for shareholders!

Sorry but I cant see the railway as a public service anymore, it's a business.

 

[FordFocus]

Well I've looked through the last two issues of the ASLEF journal (November/December 2016) and can find no mention of drivers being working class. The closest I have found is reference to "Tory attacks on the working-classes and trade unions, dangers facing the NHS and education, and the need for affordable housing and transport". And I've yet to see any press quote or statement from ASLEF referring to drivers as being working class, and assume you couldn't find one either given you didn't supply any links to back up your misguided view.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant. There is an increase in drivers on trainee courses who have worked as solicitors, IT managers and other 'middle class' occupations for a change in career on the railway. They find it refreshing and are actually quite warm to the union particularly at a local level.

Because you've disagreed with him though you now a "communist" like the rest of us..... :roll:

 

[Fincra5]

I must say @highdyke you do seem to have quite the beef with rail staff. Especially train drivers. I do so like how you call it boring and you'd fall asleep... yet you were a signaller (before you were made redundant)... I bet that was top notch entertainment. :roll:

 

[highdyke]

*Yawn* Sorry, busy reading this and the RMT press releases for entertainment.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/102209/102211/locomotive_journal/

 

[theblackwatch]

*Yawn* Sorry, busy ready this and the RMT press releases for entertainment.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/102209/102211/locomotive_journal/

Presumably trying to find all those 'working class' statements that you're so keen on! :P

 

[highdyke]

Not me that keeps making them, or donating lots of money to hard left Mr Corbyn.

Dave will be on soon saying take the money from shareholders and profits for guards.

ASLEF have a decent share fund I hear..

One day they'll be a refreshing new partnership, everyone working together for the betterment of the railways.

 

[JamesTT]

On the subject of unions the problem in my opinion is probably the 2 strongest unions left are RMT and ASLEF. Then you have the perceived (I say perceived, I don't mean it is the case) These unions represent people who are overpaid not because of the complexeity of their job, but because they can 'hold the country to ransom'
Regards disabled passenger test case has anyone started a crowd funding campaign to bring it one front of a judge?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and working class is people who need to work to earn a living. If you can quit work and live on your investments etc you are not working class otherwise you are.

 

[ungreat]

Hey highdyke...do you want anything from the shop in the morning?
Asking as whilst I'm going to fetch my copy of the "Morning Star" I may as well be a good communist and help out where I can....some new toys for the pram? New dummy? Subscription to the new magazines " I hate Train Drivers" and "Union Scum Monthly"? )

 

[highdyke]

Asking as whilst I'm going to fetch my copy of the "Morning Star" I may as well be a good communist and help out where I can....

You should read it, they are gunning great guns for you guys.

some new toys for the pram? New dummy?

Southern passengers are donating those into a great bin it's rumoured.

Subscription to the new magazines " I hate Train Drivers"

Don't need that because personally I don't. People think I do but they are weak minded. Just think this DOO thing is a bit daft.

and "Union Scum Monthly"? )

There's a DVD now...Features scenes from Brighton.


NEXT!

 

[ainsworth74]

The railway can hardly be seen as an essential service if it can be privatised and run for profit for shareholders!

So utilities like gas, electric and water are not 'essential services'?

 

[Robertj21a]

Any chance you guys could all stop bickering and get back to the subject ?

Thank you.

 

[HLE]

*Yawn* Sorry, busy reading this and the RMT press releases for entertainment.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/102209/102211/locomotive_journal/

Oh get a grip
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not me that keeps making them, or donating lots of money to hard left Mr Corbyn.

Dave will be on soon saying take the money from shareholders and profits for guards.

ASLEF have a decent share fund I hear..

One day they'll be a refreshing new partnership, everyone working together for the betterment of the railways.

Now I'm the one yawning.

 

[FordFocus]

ASLEF said the meeting was positive from both sides and will recommence tomorrow. Fridays strike still on.

 

[HLE]

On the subject of unions the problem in my opinion is probably the 2 strongest unions left are RMT and ASLEF. Then you have the perceived (I say perceived, I don't mean it is the case) These unions represent people who are overpaid not because of the complexeity of their job, but because they can 'hold the country to ransom'
Regards disabled passenger test case has anyone started a crowd funding campaign to bring it one front of a judge?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and working class is people who need to work to earn a living. If you can quit work and live on your investments etc you are not working class otherwise you are.

Please don't start the overpaid argument. Pure jealousy.

Yes unfortunately they are the last two unions that still have some power. Thanks to the tories and modern day management 'techiques' we now have a working culture in most industries of 'when I say jump, you say how high'.

How dare the working (yes working) man have a say against management.

Up the unions.

 

[Domh245]

Any chance you guys could all stop bickering and get back to the subject ?

Thank you.

Nope, sorry, not a chance. Personal and political attacks are the order of the day :P

But seriously, I managed to find a video from the RSSB explaining their view on DOO. I'd disagree with some of his arguments, particularly about how the use of DOO on LU proves that DOO (as a general system) is safe. LU have off train cameras which give a far wider view of the train and the platform, compared to the rather narrow field of view that you get with bodyside cameras, not to mention that the screens on LU stay on until the train has left the platform and in most cases, are on ATO lines where the driver can actually monitor the train as it leaves the platform - unlike the mainline

https://play.buto.tv/GlDtl

 

[FordFocus]

What are peoples views on the acceptable length of DOO trains?

 

[Llanigraham]

*Yawn* Sorry, busy reading this and the RMT press releases for entertainment.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/102209/102211/locomotive_journal/

Thought you said you were leaving.
I do not intend replying to your PM other than no, I was not a Grade 4 in West Wales.

 

[Fincra5]

So utilities like gas, electric and water are not 'essential services'?

And you agree they should be in the private sector?

 

[Robertj21a]

Nope, sorry, not a chance. Personal and political attacks are the order of the day :P

But seriously, I managed to find a video from the RSSB explaining their view on DOO. I'd disagree with some of his arguments, particularly about how the use of DOO on LU proves that DOO (as a general system) is safe. LU have off train cameras which give a far wider view of the train and the platform, compared to the rather narrow field of view that you get with bodyside cameras, not to mention that the screens on LU stay on until the train has left the platform and in most cases, are on ATO lines where the driver can actually monitor the train as it leaves the platform - unlike the mainline

https://play.buto.tv/GlDtl

Thanks for that.

Is there anybody on here who can give a *factual* explanation of how Thameslink operate their trains in DOO mode - obviously I don't mean every single stage of the process, but just outlining the key issues/differences might help some of us better understand the various matters. I'm not looking for pro/anti union rhetoric, just old fashioned facts. Thank you.

 

[Fincra5]

*Yawn* Sorry, busy reading this and the RMT press releases for entertainment.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/102209/102211/locomotive_journal/

How dull your evenings must be...

 

[ainsworth74]

And you agree they should be in the private sector?

Not in the current format! Probably best in the public sector or at least at arms length a bit like Network Rail used to be.

But they are in the private sector currently and they seem to be essential to me...

 

[ungreat]

You should read it, they are gunning great guns for you guys.

Now you've spoilt it for me...was looking forward to reading that

Southern passengers are donating those into a great bin it's rumoured.

Yes heard that also...they don't want you incurring too much more expense on more so kindly donated them

Don't need that because personally I don't. People think I do but they are weak minded. Just think this DOO thing is a bit daft.

Check out the RMT twitter feed...there's some good DOO monitor pictures on there.Seriously do..you might be surprised at the sheer lack of quality of the images

There's a DVD now...Features scenes from Brighton.

Volume 2 includes webcam footage of some posters on here boiling with anti-union rage..That one is a right hoot! I think you might be at about 25 minutes in!!



Next indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for that.

Is there anybody on here who can give a *factual* explanation of how Thameslink operate their trains in DOO mode - obviously I don't mean every single stage of the process, but just outlining the key issues/differences might help some of us better understand the various matters. I'm not looking for pro/anti union rhetoric, just old fashioned facts. Thank you.

I'm on GN and we've been DOO for years....I've worked with and without guards over a long period of time on various parts of the network. I'd imagine our DOO arrangement is similar to Thameslink
I prefer with a guard.Recently our lot have been putting platform staff out on platforms with DOO mirrors to dispatch the trains. If they are so confident that DOO self dispatch is so risk free and safe then why have they put staff on the platforms to do such activities?

 

[JamesTT]

Please don't start the overpaid argument. Pure jealousy.

Yes unfortunately they are the last two unions that still have some power. Thanks to the tories and modern day management 'techiques' we now have a working culture in most industries of 'when I say jump, you say how high'.

How dare the working (yes working) man have a say against management.

Up the unions.

I will refer you to the use of the word perceived

 

[ungreat]

What are peoples views on the acceptable length of DOO trains?

Personal opinion..8 coaches.12 coaches is far too much and we have those also.