Train pulls away with children left on platform

[47271]

Not intended as a personal attack, but the phrase 'for operational convenience' is thrown around way too much. Sometimes it is valid, but in a lot of cases the alternative (if there is one) would be highly disruptive. I've had a look at Realtime trains and there doesn't seem to be a 1637/1641 combo off platform 16 so it may well have been resolved.

Sorry, there was a gross inaccuracy in my post, I don't know what I was thinking about. Not enough timekeeping on my part over the festive period maybe!

I meant 1737 and 1743, I'm pretty certain those are the actual departure times rather than that what RTT says. They both still go from 16 as far as I can see.

My point about operational convenience is that, whatever the arrangement is for, on a daily basis it evidently isn't in the interests of the confused passengers who end up in the wrong part of Scotland. The Inverness train is parked locked at the rear of the platform for up to half an hour while regulars in the know (mostly Kirkcaldy commuters) stand around the doors, which only encourages the more casual Aberdeen passenger to believe that this may be their train. Quite rightly the crew only open the doors at the point that the front train pulls out, but by that time the damage is done.

Anyway, we've gone off topic, and I'm not excusing the daftness that led to the original post, but the railway can be a confusing place to those unfamilar with it.

 

[rebmcr]

My point about operational convenience is that, whatever the arrangement is for, on a daily basis it evidently isn't in the interests of the confused passengers who end up in the wrong part of Scotland. The Inverness train is parked locked at the rear of the platform for up to half an hour while regulars in the know (mostly Kirkcaldy commuters) stand around the doors, which only encourages the more casual Aberdeen passenger to believe that this may be their train. Quite rightly the crew only open the doors at the point that the front train pulls out, but by that time the damage is done.

Double-stacking at Manchester Piccadilly generally has a troupe of very enthusiastic platform staff making sure everyone is informed of the situation.

 

[najaB]

Double-stacking at Manchester Piccadilly generally has a troupe of very enthusiastic platform staff making sure everyone is informed of the situation.

From what I've seen at Edinburgh only the front set will be unlocked, and they tend not to announce the platform for the second train until the first one is about to depart (or has departed).

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely Parent 1 should get on the train, then the kids, then Parent 2. It's not rocket science!

On the tube I'll sometimes help a lone parent with a pushchair by physically blocking the door (just in case, not holding the train) while they get the pushchair on/off to avoid similar problems.

Only Parent 2 was travelling...read the article.

Only Parent 2 should board the train. Don't board a train you don't want to travel on.

 

[The Growl]

My guess is that it was something like:

LowLevel: Are you getting this train or not?
Kids jump on expecting parents to follow
Train departs stage right, parents enter stage left
Parents: Where are the kids?

Hillarity ensues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From what I've seen at Edinburgh only the front set will be unlocked, and they tend not to announce the platform for the second train until the first one is about to depart (or has departed).

I don't understand why the PIS isn't set up to deal with this at termini where it happens a lot. Platform zones would do it well enough.

 

[najaB]

I don't understand why the PIS isn't set up to deal with this at termini where it happens a lot. Platform zones would do it well enough.

In Glasgow they are announced as "The train at the front of platform..." and "The train at the rear of platform..." - can't say I've noticed it at Edinburgh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Glasgow they are announced as "The train at the front of platform..." and "The train at the rear of platform..." - can't say I've noticed it at Edinburgh.

The advantage of doing it more formally would be that the PIS could display it correctly.

 

[47271]

In Glasgow they are announced as "The train at the front of platform..." and "The train at the rear of platform..." - can't say I've noticed it at Edinburgh.

Taking my example, the platform for the Inverness train is a complete mystery to everyone other than those in the know until it's no longer possible to board the Aberdeen service.

Say the signal for the Aberdeen is delayed by a minute or two, not uncommon at Waverley at that time of day, then it can be that there's only a matter of 2-3 minutes to get most of the Inverness passengers through the gateline, on the train, work out which is Coach A, search for their reserved seat, stow their giant suitcases, you know how it is.

Meanwhile half a dozen innocents wanting to travel to Aberdeen have been standing amongst in-the-know Fife and Perth commuters for 15 minutes thinking that their train has still to be opened up.

Some staff are very good at taking it on their own initiative to keep people right, but there's no evidence that this is something officially directed by the operator.

It wouldn't be so bad if one of the two trains was a regular commuter service, it's the fact that they're two long distancers that puts the icing on the cake.

 

[najaB]

The advantage of doing it more formally would be that the PIS could display it correctly.

The PIS also displays the same - it's automated announcements.

 

[randyrippley]

Its not so many years that a Platform Attendant at Preston was carried away non-stop to Euston when assisting a blind passenger (plus dog) to her seat.
Management were requested to put in an extra stop at Wigan or Warrington - and refused.
Whether he got paid overtime - or had his wages docked - was never made public.
Thinking about it, it must have been pre-Pendolino, but the moral is the same - even rail staff get caught helping people to seats.

 

[SteveP29]

The Mirror article on Facebook elicited a number of enraged posts from some that would have ranted and raved on the train, to one who would have pulled the cord, used the emergency door open procedure and stomped off backj up the track to the station.
I was polite in my response that the line is 3rd rail powered and as such, even if this person managed to get the doors open, they'd be risking their life to get back to the station and presuming they survived, they'd most likely be prosecuted for trespass on the railway.
My main problem with it was that they took the stupidest solution to the problem at hand.
1, they could have all gone to Bournemouth for the day
2, they should have made arrangements for station/ platform staff to assist them onto the train, for which, there would have been extra dwell time in the station to make this possible.
3, why couldn't the family's sisters come to their house instead of making a woman on crutches travel to them (even if it was only one stop)
4, the Mirror's story alluded to the fact that because she had broken both legs, the husband had to help his wife onto the train AND to find a seat, if she is incapable of walking on crutches, then she should have been in a wheelchair.

It seems so weird to me that humans without fail, always seem to make the most illogical decisions when a problem presents itself, in this case, it seems to have happened again

 

[SpacePhoenix]

@Monty and @Matt Taylor do you ever get a message sent to you from SWT's control to say that at a certain station on the service a passenger(s) might need assistance getting on/off the train?

 

[341o2]

I guess the DM have never heard of the Island Line

Nice one!

 

[Monty]

@Monty and @Matt Taylor do you ever get a message sent to you from SWT's control to say that at a certain station on the service a passenger(s) might need assistance getting on/off the train?

If assistance has been booked for a specific service then yes. Normally a global email would be sent to all guards phones with the trains Headcode and include further details about the journey in question (boarding/alighting at, any other specifics etc).

 

[Antman]

even if this person managed to get the doors open... they'd most likely be prosecuted for trespass on the railway.
My main problem with it was that they took the stupidest solution to the problem at hand.

No railway company would be that stupid.

Although it might be considered the guard did nothing wrong, even though the guard would have clearly seen three young children standing on their own when they gave the signal for the train to move off, and would have then seen the reaction of the children as the train departed (did the children head towards the moving train?). I am sure the train company's management would not want the guard's decision exposed to the scrutiny of court proceedings.

 

[takno]

No railway company would be that stupid.

Although it might be considered the guard did nothing wrong, even though the guard would have clearly seen three young children standing on their own when they gave the signal for the train to move off, and would have then seen the reaction of the children as the train departed (did the children head towards the moving train?). I am sure the train company's management would not want the guard's decision exposed to the scrutiny of court proceedings.

It's likely the guard saw a group of children looking longingly at the train, possibly surrounded by exiting passengers, as it departed. Given that children often look at strange stuff, and are generally too small to be visible in a group I think it's probably hard to interpret facial expressions. In any case the attached adult may have been standing back if the children were larger than toddlers - it shouldn't be essential to physically keep hold of children once they are old enough to know to stay behind the line. As to their reaction, it's quite likely that the guard wasn't able to dispatch from a droplight and couldn't effectively see this at all. Either way, there's a cast iron guarantee that a DOO driver would have seen none of it.

 

[IanXC]

The advantage of doing it more formally would be that the PIS could display it correctly.

It's not apparent from online systems but the CIS at Queen Street does a good job of indicating which is the front and rear train, along with suitable signage.

 

[najaB]

It's not apparent from online systems but the CIS at Queen Street does a good job of indicating which is the front and rear train, along with suitable signage.

Central's not bad either, with two destination boards per platform - one for the front train and the other for the rear.

 

[mickulty]

So to be clear - only the mother was supposed to be carried, the children were supposed to be left on the platform, the only issue is the father - having boarded the train and presumably headed towards seats - was carried? And he was able to get a taxi the whole 4 miles back to where station staff were providing free daycare, a round trip of about 15 minutes?

Golly, what a terrible ordeal.

Well done the station staff for making sure the kids were ok. Hopefully the family involved will bother to talk to someone rather than getting on a train without a ticket and assuming it'll wait 5 minutes for them to sort themselves out.

(I should confess - many years ago when I was in my early teens my own typically middle-class mother did the same thing at derby when I'd done my arm in. Thankfully on that occasion she did manage to get off just in time so the result was as simple as she got an earful and I got help from staff at the other end)

 

[SamYeager]

Sadly for all the great and good pontificating with the benefit of their great rail experience, a not insignificant number of people do not take the train on a regular basis. They thus do not possess the "anyone should know that" knowledge that most, if not all, the posters on this thread are wittering on about. These cases will keep happening as a result.

 

[bramling]

and would have then seen the reaction of the children as the train departed (did the children head towards the moving train?).

Please can we get away from any idea that it's simple for train dispatchers (be it a driver, guard of platform staff) to infer much from the behaviour of people on a platform whilst a train departs, or any other time for that matter. The fact is people do all sorts of strange things.

All the more so if one is using a DOO monitor. And from a DOO point of view, the driver doesn't really want to become too concerned with watching a particular person or persons too closely, as before you know it you're distracted and have missed something like a signal or whatever.

My only real concern if dispatching a train is to ensure everyone is safely back from the train before moving off, or if I see someone running closely alongside the train as it moves off, suggesting a potential dragging.

 

[bramling]

Sadly for all the great and good pontificating with the benefit of their great rail experience, a not insignificant number of people do not take the train on a regular basis. They thus do not possess the "anyone should know that" knowledge that most, if not all, the posters on this thread are wittering on about. These cases will keep happening as a result.

Agreed. However when something does happen they should just put it down to experience.

How this sort of non-story rubbish makes it to news media I'll never know.

I see it quite often at my local station. During the peak times, the commuters all know where to stand in order to be in the right place for where a door is going to stop, and generally everything works smoothly and efficiently. Weekends is a completely different matter, and I see quite a lot of squabbles as people fight to be first on despite having waited in the wrong spot through not knowing any different. Some non-regular travellers expect to have the same experience as regulars despite not being 'in the know', and that simply isn't going to happen.

Certainly where I am we see a *lot* more "person caught in doors" complaints on weekends, despite overall footfall being lower. Needless to say in virtually every single case it's put down to passenger error, although it will still be fully investigated.

 

[jon0844]

How this sort of non-story rubbish makes it to news media I'll never know.

It's a quiet time of year. You get the same during other holidays and quiet times.

Weekends is a completely different matter, and I see quite a lot of squabbles as people fight to be first on despite having waited in the wrong spot through not knowing any different. Some non-regular travellers expect to have the same experience as regulars despite not being 'in the know', and that simply isn't going to happen.

I've found many times that when I've travelled in the peak with my son, regulars come and stand in front - even though I'm at the exact right place to board too. Suffice to say, they don't get on first and often huff and puff as if we're somehow not allowed to be there because, well, four year old child.

Ditto if I'm off to the airport for an early flight. At 5am, no problems. At 7-8.30pm, woah - everyone wants on before my case. Again, sorry, I was there first and getting on first gets my bag well out of your way too, given I know exactly where to put it. (Well, for a while, I think of other places but know that being arrested will likely make me miss my plane)!

 

[bramling]

It's a quiet time of year. You get the same during other holidays and quiet times.



I've found many times that when I've travelled in the peak with my son, regulars come and stand in front - even though I'm at the exact right place to board too. Suffice to say, they don't get on first and often huff and puff as if we're somehow not allowed to be there because, well, four year old child.

Ditto if I'm off to the airport for an early flight. At 5am, no problems. At 7-8.30pm, woah - everyone wants on before my case. Again, sorry, I was there first and getting on first gets my bag well out of your way too, given I know exactly where to put it. (Well, for a while, I think of other places but know that being arrested will likely make me miss my plane)!

My local station is generally quite good during the peak times. An orderly queue forms and everything is fairly gentlemanly. You may well however be right that someone who looks "not in the know" might well have advantage taken of that.

Weekends are just awful nowadays. Been barged so many times by families who suddenly start launching themselves along the platform just as the train arrives. Shame the bag I carry around is rather heavy. Even better if a have a nice oily unfolded bike with me!

 

[jon0844]

GTR has been actively seeking to reduce the problems you suffer at weekends though!

 

[AlterEgo]

Sadly for all the great and good pontificating with the benefit of their great rail experience, a not insignificant number of people do not take the train on a regular basis. They thus do not possess the "anyone should know that" knowledge that most, if not all, the posters on this thread are wittering on about. These cases will keep happening as a result.

Their biggest mistake was going to be paper and bitching about it, and pulling sad faces with their dumbass story about their kids crying.

I'd have every sympathy with them if the parents had been a little more gracious (and realistic)!

 

[plymothian]

GWR stations, at least, have "May I have your attention please. Customers are reminded not to board trains if they are not intending to travel." announcements ad nauseam, along with all the other plethora regarding locking of doors and standing 'well behind' the yellow line.

 

[Antman]

It's likely the guard saw a group of children looking longingly at the train, possibly surrounded by exiting passengers, as it departed. Given that children often look at strange stuff, and are generally too small to be visible in a group I think it's probably hard to interpret facial expressions. In any case the attached adult may have been standing back if the children were larger than toddlers - it shouldn't be essential to physically keep hold of children once they are old enough to know to stay behind the line. As to their reaction, it's quite likely that the guard wasn't able to dispatch from a droplight and couldn't effectively see this at all.

You may be perfectly correct.

However would the train company management want any of the "generally" and "probably" looked at in detail, which it would be if you took the decision to prosecute for trespass up the track or pulling the emergency handle?

Anyway the failure seems to be the rail industry for not publicising wider the availability of passenger assistance, and specifically it is not restricted to the disabled which some people interpret as people in wheelchairs.

 

[BestWestern]

Sadly for all the great and good pontificating with the benefit of their great rail experience, a not insignificant number of people do not take the train on a regular basis. They thus do not possess the "anyone should know that" knowledge that most, if not all, the posters on this thread are wittering on about. These cases will keep happening as a result.

Whilst your point is valid, surely the concept that a train which is about to leave is going leave, is crossing well into common sense territory, rather than seasoned railway knowledge?!