The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[74A]

I am sure if it remained, GTR employed railway staff excepted they would get enough volunteers to run Boxing Day. You may get staff volunteers who's partners need to work in many of the industries that are open.

I hope that is the case and people are not forced to work it.

Southern drivers clearly must have it in their contract. They are currently not working non-contractural overtime so if it was voluntary they would not have worked.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm contracted to work Christmas and Boxing Day. When we did run trains on Boxing Day they were like ghost trains. If there was a real demand or it was financially beneficial then we'd run trains.

I often find with the railways they are always saying no demand exists, but are unwilling to test the market.

Take the early morning trains into Scotland operated by TpE. Virgin claimed demand didn't exist. Tpe operated them and they are full.

Absolutely don't think a full service on Boxing Day is needed, but i am sure that say Welwyn Garden City / Hertford - London would be used, especially if Arsenal are at home.

 

[ComUtoR]

I often find with the railways they are always saying no demand exists, but are unwilling to test the market.

Did you not read my post where I stated we used to run trains. Let me reiterate. We ran trains, there were almost empty, some were 100% empty. Suffice to say, waters were tested.

The only way I think our services would return will be if we were financially incentivised or forced.

 

[Class 170101]

Certainly the Shenfield engineering work has frightened far more people away than anticipated. It opens up the prospect of more 9 day blockades in future.

Christmas time maybe but not the rest of the year.

 

[Failed Unit]

Did you not read my post where I stated we used to run trains. Let me reiterate. We ran trains, there were almost empty, some were 100% empty. Suffice to say, waters were tested.

The only way I think our services would return will be if we were financially incentivised or forced.

I did, which route was it. How frequent? I am sure some were 100% empty when they were going in the opposite direction to the demand.

 

[SPADTrap]

Sure, contracts are contracts, and what happens when the Government or company decides it's a good idea for drivers to work Boxing Day? What happened to the (most of the) conductors on Southern who didn't want to become OBSs?

You can chuckle and point at your contracts all you like - I could do the same with my employer - but don't be so naive to think the ground beneath you can't change.

One of the most illuminating things about this area of the forum is the attitude of some staff. I find it a confusing and self-defeating attitude in a time where the railway is undergoing fundamental change and coming under political attack.

What is so confusing and self-defeating about it? I'm not contracted to work which was why I spent it at home with family.

I'll let you know if/when the government/TOCs decide that!

 

[6Gman]

I wasn't replying to anyone in particular. Just noticed a few mentions of the type of user as if it mattered. If people were to assume trains on Boxing Day would only carry drunks throwing up everywhere, or nasty football fans wanting to tear trains apart (my exaggerations here) it wouldn't likely be accurate or fair - and a rather desperate way to justify not running services.

I mean, you'd surely axe late night trains during Christmas party season first wouldn't you? And taxis wouldn't let anyone in their vehicles.

It boils down to whether services can physically run (it seems they could and sometimes do) and how you make it voluntary, with some safeguards against those who say yes then change their mind on the day, which seems rather unprofessional to me. Don't volunteer if you don't actually want to work.

Back in the late 70s when I turned out on Boxing Day (to get some loading data for the office - voluntarily I might add) the long-distance trains had very few shoppers, and no drunks. But lots of families, lots of suitcases, lots of people travelling to/from relatives.

 

[LAX54]

Did you not read my post where I stated we used to run trains. Let me reiterate. We ran trains, there were almost empty, some were 100% empty. Suffice to say, waters were tested.

The only way I think our services would return will be if we were financially incentivised or forced.

And they are running empty and almost empty on the normal weekdays this week, the amount of Greater Anglia trains I have seen tootling along !

Someone mentioned those that cant drive, need trains on the 26th, but surely they would need a bus service on the 26th to get them there ?

 

[northwichcat]

I have a God given right as my contract says so. Never have & never will work on the 25th or 26th. Oh how I love these conversations. Roll on next years debate

I'd love to see your face when your employer says they have a God given right not to increase pay, holiday entitlement, pension contributions etc. due to the current wording of the contract. The changes you want might have to come at the price of the changes your employer wants.

 

[northwichcat]

Did you not read my post where I stated we used to run trains. Let me reiterate. We ran trains, there were almost empty, some were 100% empty. Suffice to say, waters were tested.

The only way I think our services would return will be if we were financially incentivised or forced.

When was it tested? My local line saw a Sunday service cutback to 3-hourly in 1992 but when the service was enhanced to 2-hourly in 2008 demand for Sunday services increased by 400%. This led to the new rail franchise requiring the Sunday service to be enhanced to hourly next year. Hardly any demand 25 years ago changed in to ample demand for the current day.

 

[The Planner]

Christmas time maybe but not the rest of the year.

Half term weeks get used, Landor St in Birmingham had a big block a few years back but granted there were diversions around that.

 

[Failed Unit]

When was it tested? My local line saw a Sunday service cutback to 3-hourly in 1992 but when the service was enhanced to 2-hourly in 2008 demand for Sunday services increased by 400%. This led to the new rail franchise requiring the already Sunday service to be enhanced to hourly next year. Hardly any demand 25 years ago changed in to ample demand for the current day.

Even on a line I use a lot which lost its Sunday service most of the year in 1992. We have a train going about 1900 - 7 days per week in the summer.

Monday - Saturday it is 153 operated with about 20 passengers on it. When I use it on a Sunday it is a 156 which is fairly full. Half the passengers heading home from Cleethorpes. The rest heading to Newark for London.

The railway views there isn't demand on Sunday. Where does it go in the winter? Well i need to get someone to take me to Lincoln, others travel the next day. The railway is forcing people to change plans but it could be argued isnt losing revenue.

I don't expect this line to ever have demand on Boxing Day. I would be amazed if a service on Boxing Day between say Liverpool & Manchester wouldn't be used especially around football travel times. I am sure some would cart fresh air around as well.

Would it make money? I don't know as people that use it may have season tickets or be using the return portion of a period return. The railway already has their money. But demand exists in the urban areas, but probably not on routes in rural Lincolnshire

 

[Bellbell]

I'd love to see your face when your employer says they have a God given right not to increase pay, holiday entitlement, pension contributions etc. due to the current wording of the contract. The changes you want might have to come at the price of the changes your employer wants.

Forcing in Boxing Day working might happen over pay or pensions, I suppose. I don't have anything in my contract about increasing holiday entitlement so that would be a non starter and I'm not convinced the wording on pensions would give them much wiggle room but I don't know for sure and can't be bothered to dig it out and check. They can force it in but any TOC with Sundays outside the working week, whether completely outside or committed overtime would probably find that creates a bit of a problem as soon as Boxing Day falls on a Sunday, for the sickness related reason I posted about previously.

 

[jon0844]

Rail usage has rocketed since the 1990s, so I'd also like to know when the last tests were. As well as the finer details like, as hinted at already, when you have empty trains going against the main flow.

And in the working week, I can get on a stopper service to Moorgate from WGC around 11-11.30 and be almost the only person on it or a lot of the way. Should these trains be axed in the week? [on the contrary, from 2018 we'll have twice the frequency of potentially empty trains at this time].

And while the last train can be very busy, some evening trains are pretty quiet in the week. Should they go? The fact I'll be jumped on for saying something so stupid sort of proves my point. Obviously, no, they shouldn't.

One reason local buses suffer and often end up cut is operators (or councils through funding cuts) axe the quiet services and expect to run the profitable ones only (like ending evening services altogether). They then wonder why the busy buses get emptier, oblivious to the fact that people won't use a bus in the morning to get to work if they haven't got one to get home. They'll seek another method of transport.

I always assumed the railway knew better than this. That's why you usually have good service provision for a whole day, with the acceptance that many won't be that busy - especially 'going the other way'. Sometimes such services will run empty, but in many cases there's no massive impact in having them in public service.

If shops are shamed into closing on Boxing Day and sporting events put off until the 27th, maybe the argument for trains will fall, as clearly nobody cares about the other people who need to travel.

I know workers at the nearby Ocado that have to take taxis on some days to work their shifts because there's no public transport, and they can pay more than they'll earn that shift. But they have to do it because to miss a shift will potentially lead to them being sacked.

 

[74A]

Forcing in Boxing Day working might happen over pay or pensions, I suppose. I don't have anything in my contract about increasing holiday entitlement so that would be a non starter and I'm not convinced the wording on pensions would give them much wiggle room but I don't know for sure and can't be bothered to dig it out and check. They can force it in but any TOC with Sundays outside the working week, whether completely outside or committed overtime would probably find that creates a bit of a problem as soon as Boxing Day falls on a Sunday, for the sickness related reason I posted about previously.

For quite a few years now many contract for new staff stipulate they have to use 2 days annual leave for christmas day and boxing day. So if you work on either of these two days you will automatically get an extra day off to use when you want.

 

[Bellbell]

For quite a few years now many contract for new staff stipulate they have to use 2 days annual leave for christmas day and boxing day. So if you work on either of these two days you will automatically get an extra day off to use when you want.

Yes. So? My contract still doesn't say anything about increasing holiday entitlement. I couldn't tell you what it says off hand about pay or pensions but we don't get additional annual leave for length of service, or any other reason, I know that for sure.

Also, to use when I want, subject to the annual leave quotas at my depot, and not on Sundays, which are committed overtime for which I'm not allowed to use annual leave.

 

[PeterC]

Yes. So? My contract still doesn't say anything about increasing holiday entitlement.

I have worked places where the annual leave entitlement was in addition to public holidays and others where it included them (the latter being, at first sight, a lot more generous). I have also worked in places where there are people on one or more historic contracts, often as a result of TUPE, with different terms to new recruits.

All in all I wouldn't try and say what is a viable staffing arrangement without inside knowledge of the company concerned.

 

[SPADTrap]

I know workers at the nearby Ocado that have to take taxis on some days to work their shifts because there's no public transport, and they can pay more than they'll earn that shift. But they have to do it because to miss a shift will potentially lead to them being sacked.

Yet trains are the 'rip-off' according to the media?

 

[Class 170101]

Half term weeks get used, Landor St in Birmingham had a big block a few years back but granted there were diversions around that.

And on rural lines for Autumn and Winter ones but avoid summer. I doubt you get a complete block of a line to London relying solely on bus provision. Even Waterloo next summer is only a partial closure. Though it will almost certainly put pressure on Reading if people divert there.

 

[jon0844]

If trains ran, engineering work would mean buses/coaches laid on. People could still get to where they needed to be. Albeit slower.

 

[SPADTrap]

If trains ran, engineering work would mean buses/coaches laid on. People could still get to where they needed to be. Albeit slower.

So book a coach anyway?

 

[jon0844]

So book a coach anyway?

You could, but that's more for long distance travellers.

What about people who want to go a few stops on their rail line? There's every chance there's not even a bus that serves that route on a normal day, let alone in the holidays.

Plus if you have people with open tickets, they could use their rail ticket on the rail provided buses/coaches.

If usage is quite low, it wouldn't even need loads of them, and at least those that did want to travel would have an option. And I bet there would be no shortage of buses that the likes of Abellio, GoAhead, First, Stagecoach, Arriva etc could source - or volunteers to drive them.

 

[Failed Unit]

A lot of views about why we should never have public transportation on Boxing Day is "why should I work". I respect that view but is it shared across all staff? I suspect that some railway workers would welcome the overtime and may be upset they are denied the chance. Whether enough to exist to run the service is a different question.

The logic is amusing as well. Why should I work? Get a cab, organise a coach. Why should taxi / coach drivers work?

 

[Legzr1]

A lot of views about why we should never have public transportation on Boxing Day is "why should I work". I respect that view but is it shared across all staff? I suspect that some railway workers would welcome the overtime and may be upset they are denied the chance. Whether enough to exist to run the service is a different question.

The logic is amusing as well. Why should I work? Get a cab, organise a coach. Why should taxi / coach drivers work?

And your answer to the question 'why not travel on a day when trains are available?'.

The taxi and coach drivers I know are self-employed so have the ultimate contract - within reason, they attend when they want to attend. But most (if not all) go to work for one simple reason - they can make in one day what would normally take three days.

Treble-time can be an incentive to some but just because some vocal types on a little forum somewhere think it should be so doesn't make it so.

Apologies for upsetting some at this time of year.

 

[Failed Unit]

Short answer. If the event I want to see such as a football match is only on the 26th then travelling on the 27th isn't much use. .

My point is really because some rail staff don't want to work doesn't mean all don't.

Likewise while sales, football etc is on there will be demand from people who don't want to drive.

Personally I have never needed to do a journey on Boxing Day that could be done by public transportation. I don't believe staff should be forced to work. I just don't agree that no demand exists or that staff are not prepared to work it. As long as Boxing Day services can be resourced by people wanting to work and not forcing people that don't why have we got a problem?

 

[Bellbell]

Short answer. If the event I want to see such as a football match is only on the 26th then travelling on the 27th isn't much use. .

My point is really because some rail staff don't want to work doesn't mean all don't.

Likewise while sales, football etc is on there will be demand from people who don't want to drive.

Personally I have never needed to do a journey on Boxing Day that could be done by public transportation. I don't believe staff should be forced to work. I just don't agree that no demand exists or that staff are not prepared to work it. As long as Boxing Day services can be resourced by people wanting to work and not forcing people that don't why have we got a problem?

I've already said why I would stand against Boxing Day working, despite not caring if other people do it. I assume from what you've said here you'd be in agreement with all businesses opening on Boxing Day?

 

[6Gman]

And your answer to the question 'why not travel on a day when trains are available?'.

If you're due back at work on the morning of the 27th?

(My main concern isn't for people who want to go to the shops or a football match. It's for people who want to spend Christmas with loved ones who may live far away, but need to travel home before the 27th. And - yes - that was less of an issue this year as the 27th was a Bank Holiday, but in many years it isn't.)

 

[Bellbell]

If you're due back at work on the morning of the 27th?

(My main concern isn't for people who want to go to the shops or a football match. It's for people who want to spend Christmas with loved ones who may live far away, but need to travel home before the 27th. And - yes - that was less of an issue this year as the 27th was a Bank Holiday, but in many years it isn't.)

What if you're due back on the morning of the 26th? Or the evening of the 25th?

 

[Failed Unit]

I've already said why I would stand against Boxing Day working, despite not caring if other people do it. I assume from what you've said here you'd be in agreement with all businesses opening on Boxing Day?

That isn't for me to say. I work Christmas and Boxing Day. Get New Years off. I don't expect sympathy or others to do it. It is a decision for the business. Imagine the uproar if there was no football / pubs open on the 26th. Why should they work.

I was responding to another FM comment. Just saying if people choose to work why deny the the chance because others don't. Some people don't have families to spend time with. Working for then may make them happy.

 

[Legzr1]

What if you're due back on the morning of the 26th? Or the evening of the 25th?

Errrr, errrrr, errrr......