dk1
Veteran Member
You need look no further than Cross Country today to see the problem of relying on volunteers to cover your train service.
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The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
bramling
Veteran Member
Nothing, as long as (i) you get sufficient people, (ii) no one is *forced* into working, (iii) costs are covered so the taxpayer isn't footing the bill for the extra that would undoubtedly have to be paid.
Issue (iii) could be covered by charging a premium rate - but then let's see how many people decide their vital Boxing Day journey that they can't make on the other 363 days of the year all of a sudden isn't quite so vital!
father_jack
Established Member
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- 1,374
I think there was an 11th hour cave in on the part of XC. They went from running nowt to running loads and rumour has it triple time was part of the cave in..........
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Nor ATW. No trains at all to Ebbw Vale, Cheltenham, Vale of Glamorgan or west of Carmarthen with bustitution. 3 round trips on Marches also. A regular vulnerable area on Sundays, i.e. Cambrian and Shrewsbury area was unscathed.
221129
Established Member
Those rumours are just that... The trains that ran were always going to. Even some of the reduced services were cancelled.
Then you'd need a load more volunteers to work in order to actually enforce those special Boxing Day ticket prices/conditions
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not selling any Advances is self enforcing.
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jamesst
Established Member
Er not totally,there's an ever increasing number of non volunteers on Merseyrail being press ganged into working Boxing Day now...
Green with envy!
If they want to stick Boxing Day in my contract it would have to be a good offer that takes into account a fair work/life balance. My TOC recently struggled to get people in for New Years Day as it fell on a Sunday, offered a poor overtime rate originally so few volunteered to work. When they finally came up with an offer in line with other TOCs it was too late as people had already made alternative arrangements. I had 2 begging calls and texts to come into work but my plans were already set in stone. Some trains were replaced by buses other were cancelled at a cost that was potentially more than offering an enhanced overtime rate.
TOCs don't really want Boxing Day trains, most will run at a loss and there is no guarantee of a service running with current contract arrangements. Network Rail don't want it as it will interfere with their renewals plans in some key locations.
Sunday working needs to be addressed first and that will require extra staffing costs. TOCs will just sit on the issue until their franchise expires.
TOCs don't really want Boxing Day trains, most will run at a loss and there is no guarantee of a service running with current contract arrangements. Network Rail don't want it as it will interfere with their renewals plans in some key locations.
Sunday working needs to be addressed first and that will require extra staffing costs. TOCs will just sit on the issue until their franchise expires.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Merseyrail clearly do. What gives?
This debate has to me taken on a rather different form now a TOC has actually done it successfully 2 years running using concepts (special timetable, short working day, missing some stations, volunteer staff etc) that some people seem to be insisting isn't possible despite it having actually happened.
Yet post #375 states........
I've no idea who to believe, but the above wouldn't be surprising.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Ah, I missed that post. That's concerning if true.
I was speaking to a former director of my previous TOC who sat in a meeting with other TOC directors and the issue came up. He said the costs were too much to absorb for most companies, particularly those in the North and Wales. It can work though for some companies like Merseyrail, the airport expresses and Chiltern will primarily cater for Bicester Village shoppers.
When I were paid to work boxing day/christmas day (now I just get to be on call), if you were normally scheduled on bank holidays you'd get extra time off - so if you have 25 days leave, work a standard 12 hour day on a 6 week repeating pattern, you'd have 25*8 + 9d*12h = 308 hours of leave.
Some bank holidays you were scheduled to work, others you weren't, there was certainly no "time and a half". There was a £50 bonus for working christmas day though.
At Christmas everyone who wanted leave put in for it, with those who worked Christmas the year before getting priority, and shift swaps and even overtime were available to ensure the shifts were covered with minimal disruption, but everyone agreed that the shifts had to be covered.
When it came to time off, I'd use some of those 308 hours of leave, so a week off to see family on a week when I did 4 days would cost 48 hours of leave. A week off on a week when I did 2 days would cost 24 hours.
From the sounds of the moaning on this thread it seems that railstaff get no annual holiday and have to work every day, leaving christmas day and boxing day are the only days they have off. Or am I wrong, an infact railstaff actually get annual leave and appropiate time of in lieu?
Some bank holidays you were scheduled to work, others you weren't, there was certainly no "time and a half". There was a £50 bonus for working christmas day though.
At Christmas everyone who wanted leave put in for it, with those who worked Christmas the year before getting priority, and shift swaps and even overtime were available to ensure the shifts were covered with minimal disruption, but everyone agreed that the shifts had to be covered.
When it came to time off, I'd use some of those 308 hours of leave, so a week off to see family on a week when I did 4 days would cost 48 hours of leave. A week off on a week when I did 2 days would cost 24 hours.
From the sounds of the moaning on this thread it seems that railstaff get no annual holiday and have to work every day, leaving christmas day and boxing day are the only days they have off. Or am I wrong, an infact railstaff actually get annual leave and appropiate time of in lieu?
I'm glad I work for the railway.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
In this hypothetical scenario there's already been as much tweaking as the TOC will allow and the original offer for (b) was 3% pay rise every year and 26th December becomes working day with a lieu day of holiday, while (a) didn't originally have the guarantee of 'for the duration of the franchise.' So (a) or (b)?
Cute story. How's it relevant?
No one's ever said that. If that's what you've inferred you best go and have a little lie down. Unless of course you've also read from all the moaning on this thread that passengers cannot see their families at any time of the year other than Christmas, MUST travel on 26th and have absolutely no alternative sources of transport, none at all. That's not what I've read or inferred but I'm assuming you have some sort of hyperbole producing device built in to your brain. Mind you, I suspect it's only switched one way.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Does that translate in to English as "TOCs have staff on contracts which say they get 26th December off so it's too much hassle to try to run trains on 26th December when there is the risk of staff going on strike and the revenue lost through industrial action being higher than the revenue they'd predict to make by running a service on 26th December"?
Failed Unit
Established Member
The quote you pasted amused me. (From Ford Focus)
Most regional railway services run at a loss and GTR franchise can't run services with their current resourses anyway. Maybe we should shut the network down permanently.
(It was the quote you responded to - not taking a dig at your reply)
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The quote you pasted amused me. (From Ford Focus)
Most regional railway services run at a loss and GTR franchise can run services with their current resourses anyway. Maybe we should shut the network down permanently.
(It was the quote you responded to - not taking a dig at your reply)
I'd actually place a bet on normal Bank Holiday revenue being higher than weekday revenue.
On a weekday you normally get some quiet services in the middle of the day and some quiet evening services (unless it's Friday), while the busy trains have a lot of season ticket holders who travel at a reduced price.
On Bank Holidays on some routes you get packed trains from early morning to late evening and a lot of people buying pricey single and return tickets and not many season ticket holders taking their normal route.
From the Ops side of Net Rail, A/L and L/L are barred over the two weeks of Christmas, In Powerboxes, staff that are 'As Ordered' those weeks, can apply, and it will be granted 'if' there are no vacancies / sickness to cover within the box, If you booked to work a panel or workstation, so be it, unless you can arrange cover yourself.
I assume Single manned boxes work in a similar way ?
Generally panels / workstations / boxes will be closed 25th and up to 1800 or 2200 on the 26th if there is no Engineering Work / Engineering Trains or an actual Passenger service
On the GEML the only location closed was Trowse Bridge. All boxes from Liverpool Street through to Norwich/ Clacton / Cambridge / March / Peterboro were open 24/7 (except as stated Trowse Bridge)
I assume Single manned boxes work in a similar way ?
Generally panels / workstations / boxes will be closed 25th and up to 1800 or 2200 on the 26th if there is no Engineering Work / Engineering Trains or an actual Passenger service
On the GEML the only location closed was Trowse Bridge. All boxes from Liverpool Street through to Norwich/ Clacton / Cambridge / March / Peterboro were open 24/7 (except as stated Trowse Bridge)
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Failed Unit
Established Member
The whole debate really is some staff don't want to work it. Which is fair enough and their absolute right. The claims about lack of demand is hard to prove / disprove either way. The closest we get with the same arguments are Sunday services. "Do you work Sundays - why should I?", "there is no demand", "why should you the customer expect to travel when you want?" All I would say here is how many Sunday services that have got introduced/ improved over the past 10 years have since got withdrawn or taken back to previous service levels. Be interested to know of any. I can't think of any.
You could argue the same with the shops opening. Why can't people wait until the 27th or plan ahead and do it on the 24th?
Sadly for everyone including railway staff we are moving to 24 hours demand for everything. I suspect in 50 years time this debate will be why are there no trains on the 25th December airlines fly etc.
You could argue the same with the shops opening. Why can't people wait until the 27th or plan ahead and do it on the 24th?
Sadly for everyone including railway staff we are moving to 24 hours demand for everything. I suspect in 50 years time this debate will be why are there no trains on the 25th December airlines fly etc.
What I'd like to see with new franchises with sunday, bank holidays, and boxing day, as a normal working day. Other industries that make up the UKs 7 day a week transport infrastructure have such coverage contracts (airlines, service stations, coaches), so I fail to see why parts of the railway (and remember it's only parts) is so special.
On Bank Holidays, Anytimes are not often sold. Bank Holidays might be busy but the trains are full of some of the lowest yielding customers.
bramling
Veteran Member
Forget about Boxing Day and bank holidays then. Make them all just a normal working day for all. I for one would be more than happy with that. Then everyone has access to everything.
(Now let's see how many people aren't so keen now *they* may have to work).
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Llanigraham
On Moderation
Fine, but I hope you will be happy to pay the increased cost of your ticket to pay for this.
And we hope you enjoy the bus journey due to the Christmas engineering blockades...
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