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Why do so many people want to avoid their fare?

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Bletchleyite

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Of course the issue isn't that she "threw away the evidence". The ticket, as we know, technically belongs to Northern and Northern decided to retain that ticket after use at Liverpool Lime Street. This is just yet another reason why retaining tickets at ticket barriers causes issues.

Most people chuck tickets on the floor or in the bin if barriers are not working. I personally insert them into the barrier anyway, as it will still accept them. Returning them would make precious little difference to anything other than littering.
 
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najaB

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I used to work in retail and we got many 'sight of voucher' requests and could track the specific time and auth code for any transaction requested. I would be very surprised if the transaction couldn't be tracked.
I didn't say it couldn't be tracked, just not off a standard bank statement.
 

Bletchleyite

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I got into an argument with someone who did that, as I had boarded through the front (and paid) only to lose a space for my buggy because a guy had come on via the exit doors. He didn't care, obviously doing it before and not about to change his habits because of me - and the fact the driver can't do anything, thus showing his attitude works.

Interestingly, in Sweden a parent with a child in a buggy travels free so they can board via the middle doors.

Buggies boarding through the middle doors on London buses is perfectly usual - no point struggling through from the front. What they should then do is go forwards and pay once the crowd has cleared.
 

jon0844

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Buggies boarding through the middle doors on London buses is perfectly usual - no point struggling through from the front. What they should then do is go forwards and pay once the crowd has cleared.
But they often don't. Maybe they all have Travelcards though.
 

ComUtoR

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Aren't most London buses now pay before you board ?
 

Hadders

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No. None are. Roadside ticket machines were all torn out a few years ago and payment is by Oyster or contactless bank card only.

Or a paper travelcard.
 

Calthrop

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Joad once boasted in print, "I cheat the railway company whenever I can."[15] On 12 April 1948 Joad was caught travelling on a Waterloo to Exeter train without a valid ticket.[16] When he failed to give a satisfactory explanation, he was convicted of fare dodging and fined £2 (£66 as of 2016). This made front-page headlines in the national newspapers, destroyed his hopes of a peerage and resulted in his dismissal from the BBC.[17] The humiliation of this had a severe effect on Joad's health, and he soon became bed-confined at his home in Hampstead.[citation needed] Joad renounced his agnosticism and returned to the Christianity of the Church of England, which he detailed in his book The Recovery of Belief, published in 1952.[18]

This was a well known media man of the day - "The Brains Trust" - fare avoidance has probably been around since Victorian days and the first passenger train ran in service. I can thin of several well known and funded individuals who have been caught - one even gluing in ticket punch clippings to a BR style Inter City ticket of the 1970's - to no avail , he was caught and heavily fined. A mere Professor. I would add.

One takes it that Mr. Joad contritely and repentantly confessed his fare-dodging, to the Almighty – and was duly pardoned.

Agreeing that “people have been doing it ever since there have been railways” – and (as per ChiefPlanner's post) sometimes, respectable citizens as well as obvious low-lifes. I read about a case, approximately 100 years ago, in which a chap got away for years with an ingenious scam, needing a fair amount of work on his part to carry out. He travelled several times a month between London and the north of England: the pre-Grouping railway company whose services he used, had a special season-ticket-type deal for people with such travel needs. Year after year, the bod ingeniously forged a copy of the ticket concerned: and travelled using said forgery, until finally an alert inspector spotted something wrong, and our anti-hero duly ended up in court. The best part: the chap was zealously active in his church, and a lay preacher – his trips up north, were in order to do his preaching. I suppose one concludes either: “religion is rubbish, and here’s proof of it”; or, “there’s no limit to the weirdness which people can come up with”.

I am, on principle, meticulous about finding a way to pay my fare when I use public transport; but there was an occasion when, basically, I fare-dodged in spite of all efforts to the contrary. This was in India in 1993 – a tour to take in some of the remaining steam: mostly done by car (my companion for the trip, driving), but with the odd steam passenger train ride. Companion and I, had separated for a day – I spent it doing some steam rail travel on the local metre-gauge system. Reached a junction station, from which there ran a branch line with one passenger working – steam-hauled – each way per day. My plan was to travel to the first station out on the branch – a 15 / 20 minute run – and then walk back to the junction (logistics / timings didn’t allow out-and-back-all-the-way by branch train). The booking office at the junction was closed, all the time that I was there. OK, I thought, I’ll approach the guard on the train. It turned out that the train was composed of a rake of three rather weird coaches, a bit reminiscent in layout of the 15in. gauge in Britain – no way for passengers, or the guard, to get from coach to coach while the train was in motion. Stop at the first station, where I alighted, was very brief: no chance to approach the guard. And the station concerned, was unstaffed – no-one to whom to explain my problem and offer money. Back at the junction – either (I forget the details) the booking office was still closed; or, it was open but my train “back to base” was expected shortly, and I couldn’t face explaining – with time-constraints -- a complicated situation, to functionaries who – though they were usually nice enough – would probably have poorish English-language skills.

Back home, I did have thoughts of contacting the Indian railways’ representatives in Britain, telling the tale, and offering to pay whatever my fare was for the journey concerned; but ended up with the sentiment “this is too ridiculously petty, and those whom I contacted would probably not thank me for making a fuss about something so trivial. If the Western Railway of India are so totally unable to get their fare-acquiring act together, that’s their look-out.”
 

meridian2

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Most people set out to fare dodge simply because the loopholes are there and can easily be exploited. Others fare dodge accidentally, and this, IMO, is unfair, as the penalties currently do not distinguish between accidental fare dodging or deliberate fare dodging.
It's a bit like if I visit the supermarket and leave without realising the electronic tag is still on one of my items. The anti-theft alarm goes off but I have no intention to steal, and can prove it with a receipt. If I fare dodge accidentally, I have no proof to show to the inspector that my intention was to pay the correct fare but misunderstood and chose the wrong ticket. Proving that you misunderstood the various ticketing prices is very difficult and this needs to change.
 

philthetube

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I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Why do people give them advice? The most recent example is a nurse that thinks it's ok to not pay their fare for what seems to be an extended period.

What other services is it acceptable to not pay for?

Cinema?
Football Match?
British Airways?

Some very disappointing people out there IMHO...

Parking, A good honesty test for people who decry others is to ask if they would pay at a pay and display car park if they were only going to be there for 2 mins and there was no sign of a traffic warden. When you consider it some of the defences used are very similar to the railway, eg. it doesn't cost any more if I use it or not.

It is still theft to do this however and deprives operators of revenue.
 

crehld

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I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Why do people give them advice? The most recent example is a nurse that thinks it's ok to not pay their fare for what seems to be an extended period.

What other services is it acceptable to not pay for?

Cinema?
Football Match?
British Airways?

Some very disappointing people out there IMHO...

Why do so many people want to avoid their fare? The overwhelming majority, I suspect, don't, and have perfectly valid tickets for their journey.

In several instances it will be because railway has failed to provide any facilities to allow one to pay their fare.

A small minority simply don't want to pay their way in life. Not being one of these people I cannot speak to their motivations. Nevertheless this isn't of course confined to the railways. Many people try to get out of paying council tax, get out of paying parking fines or speeding fines, get out of paying car insurance. Indeed, on my bus journeys to and from work I witness several old people every week refusing to present their bus pass and demanding a free journey by virtue of their assumed age alone (they're always unsuccessful).

Is it a massive problem? Perhaps. For some companies who take a pro-active approach to revenue protection it's clearly taken seriously. But it clearly isn't perceived as that much of a problem to some rail companies who, despite the alleged millions they lose a year in unpaid fares, aren't motivated to provide adequate comprehensive ticket issuing facilities, carryout meaningful on board checks and target their revenue protection activities in such a way to effectively and efficiently target those who defraud them.

Why do people provide help on here? Why not? Everyone who provides assistance on here does so on a voluntary basis - they can choose to offer advice or not, and no one is paid. Most people have got themselves into a pickle and want some help to get out of it. Sometimes people are (often avoidably) wrongfully accused of fare evasion, and so need help ans support to get the matter dismissed. Sometimes people are in the wrong, but are mature enough to accept this, pay their dues, apologize for the error and get on with life. Of course there are those who want to avoid the consequences of their actions and might come here hoping to find some sort of obscure technicality to get them off - they're often unsuccessful.

As yorkie said above, anyone who finds themselves unnecessarily angered and outraged by the actions of complete strangers caught accused (whether rightly or wrongly) of fare evasion probably should avoid spending time looking at a sub-section of the forum explicitly titled 'disputes and prosecutions'.
 

al78

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Why do some people want to avoid their fare?

Because getting something for nothing is better than paying for it, especially if you are morally dead and can easily get away so often that the gain is greater than the occasional fine. You can even trot out the tired old 'victimless crime' BS for good measure.
 

anme

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Parking, A good honesty test for people who decry others is to ask if they would pay at a pay and display car park if they were only going to be there for 2 mins and there was no sign of a traffic warden. When you consider it some of the defences used are very similar to the railway, eg. it doesn't cost any more if I use it or not.

It is still theft to do this however and deprives operators of revenue.

Similarly how many drivers send the fine and apply for points on their license every time they speed? And speeding is a much much more serious offence than fare dodging.
 

Fare-Cop

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Britain has developed an underlying culture of self-entitlement, where the "fault" lies with those that take umbrage at it rather than with those who are taking the michael.

A one line answer that answers the specific one line question that started the thread.

We all know it doesn't apply to the whole population, but I think that it answers the particular question about those who don't want to pay particularly well.
 

fowler9

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I've been reading this thread and for each post I am never sure which person is talking about politicians expenses, which person is talking about tax avoiding billionaires and which person is talking about poor people playing the system. All the fooking same, the poor people are still pretty poor though.
 

dakta

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You have to set your own standards in life when it comes to whats right, wrong acceptable and so forth. I'll not argue that bad and downright evil people haven't existed or even been quite common but at the same time I can happily say, from living a fairly passive life and just observing how people treat each other, and other companies in general (it might be a locality thing but I doubt it) never before has the bar been lower.
 
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fowler9

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Why do people not have a ticket? Try buying a monthly C1 Trio in south Liverpool at the moment. I've been offered a Saveaway 4 times until I can get one since I last renewed my monthly ticket at the end of October. I'm now going to use my latest Saveaway to get to Mossley Hill and see if they have any Trios.
 
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507021

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Why do people not have a ticket? Try buying a monthly C1 Trio in south Liverpool at the moment. I've been offered a Saveaway 4 times until I can get one since I last renewed my monthly ticket at the end of October. I'm now going to use my latest Saveaway to get to Mossley Hill and see if they have any Trios.

I'm glad it's not just me that finds the specific zone/area Trios are a pain to get mate! It was that reason entirely which put me off buying those and deciding to buy a car to get to and from work instead. It was more expensive to start with, but I think it was worth it for the sake of convenience and I've saved money in the long run. If these tickets were easier to get, I think a lot more people would leave their car at home and buy a weekly/monthly/yearly than they do now.
 

AntoniC

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In the past I have had problems buying an Annual All Zones Trio at Southport station before ! when I asked when they would have them in stock , I got the answer of "I dont know !".

Last time I had to travel to Birkdale (one stop up the line) to buy it.
 

boxy321

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Last night I lost track of how many times it was announced that 'I'll be doing a full ticket check in 1st and standard after Coventry, so if you don't have a ticket I suggest you get off at Birmingham Intl. or Coventry. Tickets marked London Midland blah, blah, blah...'

Of course both stations have barriers but when a busy train turns up they are sometimes opened to let everyone through. Could it be that RPI staff were aware of the ticketless dross and were waiting at the above stations? I used the station toilet after alighting so it was quiet when I went through.
 

island

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I think that announcement is standard on Virgin services to give people a final chance to get off and get the proper train if they are using a LDN MIDLAND ONLY ticket.
 

fowler9

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London Midland are pretty thorough in their explanation of what will and won't be accepted. Northern leave a lot to be desired and I can see why things go wrong. Leaving Lime Street from Platform 9 this evening a lot of tickets were sold on board after departure. It just muddies the water. Lime Street is quiet at the mo and there are plenty of opportunities to buy a ticket.
 

boxy321

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A nice bit of karma this morning:

London Midland guard does a ticket check (really) between Moor St and Acocks Green; needs to make an announcement about a slight delay at Tyseley, then continues on his way. Students and others get on at Acocks Green and chap asks his mate why he didn't buy a £1 ticket to Solihull. 'Can't be bothered'.

They spot the guard who has gone further down the train and mate suggests he might consider getting off at Olton. Doesn't bother.

The masses at Solihull make for the exit and the lad, feeling pleased at the saving heads off, but there's a delay at the stairs. Around 8 RPIs waiting at the bottom in the tunnel. Said fare dodger was late for college and his mate left him behind to catch the bus...
 

dakta

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You can step outside and take a look around you!

Generalisations will always be generalisations and not target all and sundry, but there is definitely a bit of a problem somewhere and there's no point hushing it up. I hate using public transport, and its not because of the service provided all the time.
 
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