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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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Deepgreen

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I believe recent ORR guidance says that further installation of CD/RA indicators should be considered, which should reduce that. However, I'm not sure what funding or permission is actually in place for GTR to do that, especially as it also requires third party involvement with contractors or NR, rather than just internal processes.

One of the things I've noticed is that stations which only had limited proportions of DOO services before the current expansion, such as Redhill, often have slower procedures relying on more limited equipment, such as a lack of "CD" indicators, meaning more staff - and more walking - is required. At stations with brand-new DOO(P) dispatch policies, such as East Grinstead, or those refurbished with DOO in mind, such as Blackfriars, additional staff may be provided whose role has been defined partly in line with how the station will perform with this method, or else the dispatch equipment (if newer) will be more relevant and/or the controls will be in places requiring the fewest people and least walking.

This may seem like stating the obvious but it's a crucial observation when looking at this sort of thing!



Some Southern routes still have a variety of dispatch methods for the same traction and service groups (two of these with the biggest impact on performance being East Croydon and Clapham Junction, but also Victoria, Redhill, London Bridge etc.). Mainly this relates to conductors working 377s with Southeastern vice Southern drivers; degraded working or special workings/diagrams; route knowledge retention; and a few routes not yet fully cleared for DOO.

This means that unless up-to-date train-by-train crewing advice is clearly available at each dispatch position (ie. not necessarily at the end of the platform where the staff are acting as a "Close Doors" indicators), there may be confusion amongst dispatchers.

Technology available to track crewing information is getting a bit better on the Southern network, but train information data is very variable, and ways of getting hold of the same can be generally archaic and inefficient. This is not a problem unique to GTR or Southern.

Unfortunately the confusion arising does add the need for scrutiny as to whether DOO can improve overall day-to-day performance, and whether it would have been better to simply recruit a few more conductors and convert the Metro to that mode of operation too (only a handful of DOO routes would actually have been completely new to at least some depots' conductor route knowledge), but there you are.



I quite agree.



Managers can check and would be checking they are present where they should be. There are also schemes being introduced which make sure that Control are aware if they can't make it to their booked trains, which is less obvious as the train can run without them. I've not seen any detail on any specific remedial procedures to actually get OBSs back onto their booked workings, though - which is not to say it's not out there, it's just not well-publicised, especially when Charles Horton went on record in the recent BBC debate as (essentially) saying that the OBS would be sent to rejoin their train part-way through its journey if they were displaced.



Three Bridges staff will only usually stay on Platform 5 if they have to dispatch several trains in quick succession. Not only does it relate to the numbers of staff available (which seems to sometimes be quite sparse there at the moment, but that's not a reflection on everyone's journeys, I'm sure), but it is also a very inhospitable place to wait in anything but the nicest of weathers. To be quite honest, I feel sorry for passengers who miss their trains and aren't aware there are warmer areas elsewhere on the station!



They have no requirements to act as a "guard" in line with the Rule Book, and it seems an OBS is viewed more as a member of customer service staff who happens to be allocated "on board" duties, rather than as part of some new type of crew working.

Drivers are to contact them in the event of certain scenarios, such as train faults, and must acknowledge them if they state they are onboard. Likewise OBSs must speak to the driver before leaving an origin station, or after boarding at an interchange, if they are "working" the train. But there are still many potential events which don't seem to have a specified course of action yet!



OBSs are "modestly" trained to stop trains in emergencies (the definition of which, from their point of view, seems vague) but I've not seen or heard about any answers relating to holding trains in incidents which won't be likely to affect the safe movement of the stock itself, such as ticketless passengers.

They will hold their train if the driver is not to complete the dispatch procedure due to a passenger needing assistance. This is the point of the whole, much-debated, policy about activating a local door and stepping onto the platform, something which has been published online elsewhere and I believe possibly on here.

As for Byelaws matters and ticketing conditions, it's important to remember that most OBSs are either ex-conductors or ex-revenue staff, so enforcement of these would have been mentioned in some way during their training. If they haven't been briefed otherwise, any powers they were trained to use might well have been carried over.



It's a very grey area. From a customer service and "troubleshooting" point of view they are much like a conductor. From the point of view of track safety, route knowledge emergencies and dispatch, the basic training is far less comprehensive, or in the case of dispatch, non-existent. Route knowledge doesn't really exist in the traditional format, but geographical awareness is based on prior experience of the network, whatever informal observations they get during shadowing, and paper documentation, rather than route learning, with its commitment of defined features to memory.

Thanks. All the above detail confirms my suspicions - that Southern/GTR/HMG have been scandalously ill-prepared for the introduction of the regime that they claim is too important to delay/abandon! To have station staff wandering around trying to dispatch trains of (to them, it seems) unknown length is farcical and makes a mockery of the 'to-the-second' railway that we are always told is so vital when questioning things such as failing to hold connections.
 
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highdyke

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That data is available on TOPS etc and could be incorporated into schematic train running information by hovering your mouse over the headcode.
 

tsr

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That data is available on TOPS etc and could be incorporated into schematic train running information by hovering your mouse over the headcode.

"Could be". Something like that has been tried with P2 and later software of the same type. Functionality is patchy to say the least.

With Southern, the CIS often only displays or announces the information if the train could be affected by short platforms en-route. Obviously this doesn't apply to all services.
 

GT4E

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TSR sir it does seem from the outset that Southern management and Mr Horton himself does not actually know what the role of an 'OBS' is, just that they want to be able to run a train without one, and be able to say to the media that no one is losing their job. The whole thing has been extremely poorly managed from the outset. On the Beeb program Mr Horton did not have any clear concise answers. When the RMT chap actually shut up Mr Horton almost contradicted himself several times. I mean he could not or would not tell the audience what he classified as exceptional circumstances. I thought that Mr Horton would have been well prepared for that show and have clear and concise answers for passengers but he didn't.
 

highdyke

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"Could be". Something like that has been tried with P2 and later software of the same type. Functionality is patchy to say the least.

With Southern, the CIS often only displays or announces the information if the train could be affected by short platforms en-route. Obviously this doesn't apply to all services.

As a signaller I used to rely on TOPs all the time for platforming, it's no good putting a 5 car train into a bay that holds 4 cars or a freight train that has too many SLUs for some loops!

Seems to me the railway needs better UX designers at times, ironically Simsig had train running information on the click of the mouse before the real thing had!

Why IECCs were designed at they were to replicate NX panels, insomuch as you had to go signal to signal to set a route god only knows. The entire practice goes back to LMS/LNER methods of the 1930s based on the limitation of relays. You should be able to set a route anywhere, with a grey (instead of white) route being set, at least initially, and a confirmation box "are you sure" when it's more than between 2 signals.
 
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TheEdge

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OBSs are "modestly" trained to stop trains in emergencies (the definition of which, from their point of view, seems vague) but I've not seen or heard about any answers relating to holding trains in incidents which won't be likely to affect the safe movement of the stock itself, such as ticketless passengers.

They will hold their train if the driver is not to complete the dispatch procedure due to a passenger needing assistance. This is the point of the whole, much-debated, policy about activating a local door and stepping onto the platform, something which has been published online elsewhere and I believe possibly on here.

As for Byelaws matters and ticketing conditions, it's important to remember that most OBSs are either ex-conductors or ex-revenue staff, so enforcement of these would have been mentioned in some way during their training. If they haven't been briefed otherwise, any powers they were trained to use might well have been carried over.

You touch on a point that concerns me somewhat about the abilities of an OBS. Southern/GTR may be able to use smoke and mirrors to make it look like an OBS is trained to a higher standard than they are. At the start a large amount of the OBS grade will as you say, be ex-conductors, so will have had the full range of training and heaven forbid something happens will be better placed to assist than a purebred OBS will.

Give it time though and if the OBS even still exists, which lets be honest, despite what GTR claim, isn't guaranteed at all the proportion of ex-conductors will drop, as will the extra knowledge they will have had will vanish along with some of the usefulness.
 

al78

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Mr Sarcasm now that is funny as all i have done is take a leaf out of your book! I have no need to educate you about postings of drivers being on minimum wage, i was being clever and jumping ahead and being about ten pages in front. Infact i was reading certain peoples minds and thought processes.

However you dont deny anything else i said though:roll:i wonder why that is ? Could be that you want it.




I cant comment regarding the luddites cause as i wasnt there, however if in 1811 in Nottingham where the Luddite movement started i would be upset if i was being replaced by a machine leaving me with no income, so it wasnt about preserving the status quo, in those days if didnt get income from selling your services to a pay master you starved.

I just think you want people to be grateful for having a choice to live and would wish that we lived in the days of servitude to masters. Amazing how you come out with derogatory comments when someone has a different political opinion to yourself. No doubt you think im a loony leftie, commy, nazi or luddite, doesnt bother me though i am made of stronger stuff.

I think it would be easier to agree to disagree.

Well said!
 

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LateThanNever

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Now then, Mr Sarcasm, educate all of us by showing copies of the postings where they discuss the matter of drivers being on the minimum wage..<(
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would that be the same that the Luddites achieved for the handloom weavers when they set about wrecking new-fangled machinery to ensure that the status quo prevailed?,

Just think, in terms of transport, you could live in Britain with no canals or railways and enjoy the turnpikes. There would be no computers and to compensate, a large percentage update in quill production.

You misrepresent the Luddites. They wanted a share of the benefits of the new way of working and they only smashed the machines when this was not forthcoming.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I was being clever and jumping ahead and being about ten pages in front. In fact I was reading certain peoples minds and thought processes.

I think it would be easier to agree to disagree.

Mea culpa. I bow to your stated mind-reading/thought process expertise, a gift that I was not blessed with at birth...:D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You misrepresent the Luddites. They wanted a share of the benefits of the new way of working and they only smashed the machines when this was not forthcoming.

Can you see any modern comparisons?
 

Robertj21a

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I believe recent ORR guidance says that further installation of CD/RA indicators should be considered, which should reduce that. However, I'm not sure what funding or permission is actually in place for GTR to do that, especially as it also requires third party involvement with contractors or NR, rather than just internal processes.

One of the things I've noticed is that stations which only had limited proportions of DOO services before the current expansion, such as Redhill, often have slower procedures relying on more limited equipment, such as a lack of "CD" indicators, meaning more staff - and more walking - is required. At stations with brand-new DOO(P) dispatch policies, such as East Grinstead, or those refurbished with DOO in mind, such as Blackfriars, additional staff may be provided whose role has been defined partly in line with how the station will perform with this method, or else the dispatch equipment (if newer) will be more relevant and/or the controls will be in places requiring the fewest people and least walking.

This may seem like stating the obvious but it's a crucial observation when looking at this sort of thing!



Some Southern routes still have a variety of dispatch methods for the same traction and service groups (two of these with the biggest impact on performance being East Croydon and Clapham Junction, but also Victoria, Redhill, London Bridge etc.). Mainly this relates to conductors working 377s with Southeastern vice Southern drivers; degraded working or special workings/diagrams; route knowledge retention; and a few routes not yet fully cleared for DOO.

This means that unless up-to-date train-by-train crewing advice is clearly available at each dispatch position (ie. not necessarily at the end of the platform where the staff are acting as a "Close Doors" indicators), there may be confusion amongst dispatchers.

Technology available to track crewing information is getting a bit better on the Southern network, but train information data is very variable, and ways of getting hold of the same can be generally archaic and inefficient. This is not a problem unique to GTR or Southern.

Unfortunately the confusion arising does add the need for scrutiny as to whether DOO can improve overall day-to-day performance, and whether it would have been better to simply recruit a few more conductors and convert the Metro to that mode of operation too (only a handful of DOO routes would actually have been completely new to at least some depots' conductor route knowledge), but there you are.



I quite agree.



Managers can check and would be checking they are present where they should be. There are also schemes being introduced which make sure that Control are aware if they can't make it to their booked trains, which is less obvious as the train can run without them. I've not seen any detail on any specific remedial procedures to actually get OBSs back onto their booked workings, though - which is not to say it's not out there, it's just not well-publicised, especially when Charles Horton went on record in the recent BBC debate as (essentially) saying that the OBS would be sent to rejoin their train part-way through its journey if they were displaced.



Three Bridges staff will only usually stay on Platform 5 if they have to dispatch several trains in quick succession. Not only does it relate to the numbers of staff available (which seems to sometimes be quite sparse there at the moment, but that's not a reflection on everyone's journeys, I'm sure), but it is also a very inhospitable place to wait in anything but the nicest of weathers. To be quite honest, I feel sorry for passengers who miss their trains and aren't aware there are warmer areas elsewhere on the station!



They have no requirements to act as a "guard" in line with the Rule Book, and it seems an OBS is viewed more as a member of customer service staff who happens to be allocated "on board" duties, rather than as part of some new type of crew working.

Drivers are to contact them in the event of certain scenarios, such as train faults, and must acknowledge them if they state they are onboard. Likewise OBSs must speak to the driver before leaving an origin station, or after boarding at an interchange, if they are "working" the train. But there are still many potential events which don't seem to have a specified course of action yet!



OBSs are "modestly" trained to stop trains in emergencies (the definition of which, from their point of view, seems vague) but I've not seen or heard about any answers relating to holding trains in incidents which won't be likely to affect the safe movement of the stock itself, such as ticketless passengers.

They will hold their train if the driver is not to complete the dispatch procedure due to a passenger needing assistance. This is the point of the whole, much-debated, policy about activating a local door and stepping onto the platform, something which has been published online elsewhere and I believe possibly on here.

As for Byelaws matters and ticketing conditions, it's important to remember that most OBSs are either ex-conductors or ex-revenue staff, so enforcement of these would have been mentioned in some way during their training. If they haven't been briefed otherwise, any powers they were trained to use might well have been carried over.



It's a very grey area. From a customer service and "troubleshooting" point of view they are much like a conductor. From the point of view of track safety, route knowledge emergencies and dispatch, the basic training is far less comprehensive, or in the case of dispatch, non-existent. Route knowledge doesn't really exist in the traditional format, but geographical awareness is based on prior experience of the network, whatever informal observations they get during shadowing, and paper documentation, rather than route learning, with its commitment of defined features to memory.

Excellent stuff - good to have facts rather than arguments. Put over in a very clear way too.

Thank you.
 

infobleep

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As usual, very charitable of you.

Actually the ASLEF charter states, very clearly:

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102226/aslef_charter/

· No extension of DOO schemes or introduction of DOO in the form of DCO or any other name. All current DOO(P) schemes to be revisited and safety risk assessed with a policy of all trains having a second person who is trained and licensed at least to the standard required to carry out the duties of guard as detailed in the industry rule book.

No further clarification needed. ASLEF state they are opposed to DOO extension, full stop.

ASLEF are however working with GTR in ensuring that BML station furniture and sighting issues are rectified so DOO is safe. This was stated in an ASLEF journal from last year, and Nigel Harris also writes:

Ah well, that makes it much easier then.

I wonder when they decided that policy. Was it after they lost the Gatwick Express court case or before.
 

infobleep

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Sutton and Cheam MP, Paul Scully, is quoted in the Evening Standard as saying
Commuters are not really wanting people to play politics with this

I'd like to think he was referring to Peter Wilkinson and Chris Grayling, in addition to the unions but I suspect he's not referring to Peter or Chris and only the unions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No extension of DOO has been in the ASLEF Charter for years.
OK. Thanks for that.
 

FordFocus

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Any dates for the Supreme Court? Are GTR going down the 'freedom of movement' EU case again that they lost, twice?
 

Degsi00

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Any dates for the Supreme Court? Are GTR going down the 'freedom of movement' EU case again that they lost, twice?

Since the whole process from application being granted to a ruling of some sort; it could take upto 18 months or so.
Given this, one can only deduce that GTR seek to take their case to The European Court where they would likely seek favour - given its European law they are arguing.

Given the timescale of things, it could also be argued that court action is being sought - not for Southern's despite per se, but more so, stall further industrial action likely taken with other TOCs before the rollout of new franchise deals.

Is this really Southern going to Court or the Government/DfT? The question begs....
 

TheEdge

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Since the whole process from application being granted to a ruling of some sort; it could take upto 18 months or so.
Given this, one can only deduce that GTR seek to take their case to The European Court where they would likely seek favour - given its European law they are arguing.

Am I imaging that Europe has much looser trade union laws (solidarity action is allowed for example) and has a more favourable attitude to trade unions than the UK? Might that work against GTR in the EU courts?
 

Degsi00

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Am I imaging that Europe has much looser trade union laws (solidarity action is allowed for example) and has a more favourable attitude to trade unions than the UK? Might that work against GTR in the EU courts?

I question the same thing, especially since the French for example strike a lot more than we do and you would expect such Court remedies to be tested there first?!?
 

FordFocus

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Is this really Southern going to Court or the Government/DfT? The question begs....

I think it's most likely to be Wilkinson's war chest in addition to the £60m this dispute has already cost + the damage to the economy of the Southern region.. Pretty much GTR have ran out of ideas and are awaiting instructions from their masters in Whitehall. Angie Doll is a mouth piece, the other commercial director has gone quiet and some commentators suggested Horton wasn't effective on that botched BBC South East 'debate'.

Also heard that Mick Whelan has never met Charles Horton as he doesn't turn up for meetings.

Speaking ahead of the latest strike action tomorrow (Friday), Mr Whelan explained that he is more than happy to try and resolve the dispute and to meet with Charles Horton, chief executive of Southern's parent company Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).

But he added: "I've never met Mr Horton. He, particularly, doesn't turn up to talks and puts [in] other people to do his dirty work for him, so I actually don't know what Mr Horton does for a living.

"The reality for us is we will meet at whatever time they put them [their negotiators] up, but he is reticent in not getting his hands dirty throughout the last nine months or meeting with us at any level at any time.

"It shows how concerned he is about resolving this dispute.

Read more at http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/...053246-detail/story.html#gr3GHs1IG1tuJPsW.99]
 

Degsi00

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Am I imaging that Europe has much looser trade union laws (solidarity action is allowed for example) and has a more favourable attitude to trade unions than the UK? Might that work against GTR in the EU courts?

I question the same thing, especially since the French for example strike a lot more than we do and you would expect such Court remedies to be tested there first?!?

I suppose, as Govia are part owned by the French State, there may well be Government interests to be had in a European Court???

If this thought process serves to be true, to suggest it is only the Unions trying to politicise this debacle; many will stand correctedand realise is was political long before the Unions had a clue.
 
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74A

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I question the same thing, especially since the French for example strike a lot more than we do and you would expect such Court remedies to be tested there first?!?

But in France transport workers have to provide a basic service. They are not allowed to all out strike. So these is still freedom of movement. You may be delayed but you will get to where you want.
 

Degsi00

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But in France transport workers have to provide a basic service. They are not allowed to all out strike. So these is still freedom of movement. You may be delayed but you will get to where you want.

Thank you, I did not know that.
A European ruling could be setting a precedent in that case to which English law would be inclined to abide?
 

highdyke

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Campaigners have welcomed the news that Chris Grayling, the Secretary of State for Transport, has agreed to meet with them to discuss a second Brighton mainline.

The Brighton Mainline 2 (BML2) consortium has long campaigned for a second railway line via Uckfield to connect the capital to the seaside.

Last month, it was revealed a group of heavyweight overseas investors had stated their intention to fund the scheme, and had a particular interest in linking the rail line from Brighton to Canary Wharf.

Now, Simon Kirby, Conservative MP for Brighton Kemptown, said the transport secretary had agreed to meet with the campaigners behind the idea.

He said: “I am pleased that the Secretary of State has agreed to this meeting. I believe that this project could be a long-term solution to resolving some of the problems on the existing line.”

A spokesman for rge BML2 campaigners said: “We’re delighted the Secretary of State has agreed to meet the BML2 consortium. Over the past year, international investors have looked at the Brighton Main Line 2 proposal in detail and have now agreed to fund it. The consortium of professionals is now prepared to undertake its design and construction and will now put its case to the government.

“Aside from the current industrial disputes, railways in London and the South East are struggling to meet demand. BML2 will deliver vast amounts of capacity so more trains can be operated. There will be new destinations with some closed routes in Sussex reopening. This is going to be a very exciting time and a huge boost for the Sussex economy.”

http://www.brightonandhoveindepende...to-discuss-second-brighton-mainline-1-7773707
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But in France transport workers have to provide a basic service. They are not allowed to all out strike. So these is still freedom of movement. You may be delayed but you will get to where you want.

Yes indeed 30% service and work to rule is illegal, unlike here. In the USA striking is illegal by public service workers (Taylor law) and nationally it has to be approved by the government for Railroad/Airlines. This is since the 70s after the collapse of PennCentral, America's biggest bankruptcy at that date brought on by the Unions after the merging of two railroads to save costs.

In some Marxist–Leninist states, like China and Russia, striking is totally illegal.
 
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GT4E

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Also heard that Mick Whelan has never met Charles Horton as he doesn't turn up for meetings.

Very interesting in that article from the Croydon Advertiser. According to the drivers union chap the offer Southern made to them about upgrading the equipment on the trains was conditional on the union attesting that the changes that the company want to bring in are safe. So they wouldn't upgrade the cameras unless the drivers union declared the companies changes as safe. If they can upgrade the cameras why didn't they do it to start with?
 

Degsi00

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http://www.brightonandhoveindepende...to-discuss-second-brighton-mainline-1-7773707
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes indeed 30% service and work to rule is illegal, unlike here. In the USA striking is illegal by public service workers (Taylor law) and nationally it has to be approved by the government for Railroad/Airlines. This is since the 70s after the collapse of PennCentral, America's biggest bankruptcy at that date brought on by the Unions after the merging of two railroads to save costs.

In some Marxist–Leninist states, like China and Russia, striking is totally illegal.

Yes but how is 'work to rule' a strike?

Indeed, how can it be illegal to refuse to work beyond that which you are cotractually obliged?
 
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