Arriva Rail North DOO

[WatcherZero]

Northern pennine route was due for signalling renewal during electrification, with the plans delayed they may end up doing it first but theres also been talk they will electrify the line as is anyway as a phase 1 before speed improvements made as a phase 2, though they will have a rough idea of what the rescoped phase 2 would be before starting.

 

[Starmill]

Doesn't Glossop still lack track circuits? I love that it was the first one mentioned there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Doesn't Glossop still lack track circuits? I love that it was the first one mentioned there.

Dinting box is indeed Absolute Block.
So are, for example, Mobberley, Glazebrook East and New Mills East.
Also Wigan Wallgate towards Southport/Kirkby.
So if TCB working is required, there are some significant constraints on Northern's network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dinting box is indeed Absolute Block.
So are, for example, Mobberley, Glazebrook East and New Mills East.
Also Wigan Wallgate towards Southport/Kirby.
So if TCB working is required, there are some significant constraints on Northern's network.

Of course it would be possible to adopt the approach taken by GWR and Chiltern at one point and have a guard on the sections where one is required by virtue of the signalling, and not on those where one is not.

So for Manchester to Southport/Kirkby, you'd run DOO from Manchester and a guard would board at Wigan, and alight there on the way back.

 

[FordFocus]

Doesn't Glossop still lack track circuits? I love that it was the first one mentioned there.

The 5 Stockport boxes are AB although I fully expect a deviation from the rules will be allowed here if DOO-P was ever to venture north. Routes like Chester via Altrincham, Hope Valley, Buxton and Hadfield will be AB for a decade or so yet. I'm unsure if any boxes around the Romiley area remain?

 

[74A]

The 5 Stockport boxes are AB although I fully expect a deviation from the rules will be allowed here if DOO-P was ever to venture north. Routes like Chester via Altrincham, Hope Valley, Buxton and Hadfield will be AB for a decade or so yet. I'm unsure if any boxes around the Romiley area remain?

Is AB really a block on DOO ? Chiltern used to run through to Banbury and that was AB (not any more) And I think line between Princes Risborough and Bicester was AB before it was redoubled and DOO use to run there.

 

[FordFocus]

Is AB really a block on DOO ? Chiltern used to run through to Banbury and that was AB (not any more) And I think line between Princes Risborough and Bicester was AB before it was redoubled and DOO use to run there.

Banbury South SB to Aynho Junction was TCB with the appropriate CSR equipment before it got moved into Saltley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is AB really a block on DOO ? Chiltern used to run through to Banbury and that was AB (not any more)

A guard used to board between, I think, Banbury and Birmingham.

 

[FordFocus]

And I think line between Princes Risborough and Bicester was AB before it was redoubled and DOO use to run there.

An interesting question. I'm not sure it was AB between Princes Risborough and Bicester as it came under Marylebone IECC when the modernisation plans came in under Chris Green. In 1992 (when the 165 fleet was introduced to replace the slam door DMUs) Aynho Junction box moved into a NX unit at Banbury South SB. I presume it was then made electrical tokenless block from Bicester to Aynho until the double track present arrangement we see today.

 

[Andrew32]

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH

I have now received a response from ARN on this matter, which has been considered by the NEC, it has noted the letter from the company which offers to seek agreement with your union on the best method of train despatch and staff safety competencies. Additionally, the NEC notes that the company is prepared to offer a guarantee of second person in addition to the driver on its trains.

.....

 

[bb21]

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH

I have now received a response from ARN on this matter, which has been considered by the NEC, it has noted the letter from the company which offers to seek agreement with your union on the best method of train despatch and staff safety competencies. Additionally, the NEC notes that the company is prepared to offer a guarantee of second person in addition to the driver on its trains.

I assume that is a letter from the union rather than you speaking?

 

[Andrew32]

Correct, I've taken most of the text out, just the main bullet point.

 

[sandyravage]

cid:[email protected]
www.rmt.org.uk


27th January 2017

IMMEDIATE



RMT welcomes Arriva Northern offer to agree train despatch and safety

RAIL UNION RMT has welcomed correspondence received from Arriva Northern which offers to work out an agreement with the union on the best method of train dispatch and staff safety competencies.

The union particularly welcomes the fact that the company says it is prepared to offer a guarantee of second person in addition to the driver on their trains.

In view of these developments RMT is seeking an urgent meeting with the company to come up with a comprehensive proposal to meet these objectives

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT welcomes the opportunity to engage in positive talks with Arriva Northern over the best method for train dispatch and staff safety competencies and will be seeking a meeting with the company at the earliest opportunity.

“Ultimately our aim will be to receive a guarantee that there will be a second safety critical member of staff on board their trains."

Ends.

Further information:

Geoff Martin

 

[XDM]

A guard used to board between, I think, Banbury and Birmingham.

All Chiltern trains in passenger service have guards from Banbury northwards. All chiltern mu trains southwards from Banbury & from Oxford are DOO.

 

[Robertj21a]

cid:[email protected]
www.rmt.org.uk


27th January 2017

IMMEDIATE



RMT welcomes Arriva Northern offer to agree train despatch and safety

RAIL UNION RMT has welcomed correspondence received from Arriva Northern which offers to work out an agreement with the union on the best method of train dispatch and staff safety competencies.

The union particularly welcomes the fact that the company says it is prepared to offer a guarantee of second person in addition to the driver on their trains.

In view of these developments RMT is seeking an urgent meeting with the company to come up with a comprehensive proposal to meet these objectives

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT welcomes the opportunity to engage in positive talks with Arriva Northern over the best method for train dispatch and staff safety competencies and will be seeking a meeting with the company at the earliest opportunity.

“Ultimately our aim will be to receive a guarantee that there will be a second safety critical member of staff on board their trains."

Ends.

Further information:

Geoff Martin

Can't help but notice the big sticking point.......

'.....guarantee of second person.....'

vs [RMT]

'......a second safety critical member of staff....'

 

[XDM]

Can't help but notice the big sticking point.......

'.....guarantee of second person.....'

vs [RMT]

'......a second safety critical member of staff....'

You have cracked it in one.

 

[northwichcat]

Can't help but notice the big sticking point.......

'.....guarantee of second person.....'

vs [RMT]

'......a second safety critical member of staff....'

Indeed. Arriva seem to be saying instead of making all reasonable endeavours to ensure there's a second member of franchise staff on all DCO services (as per the franchise requirement), they will offer a guarantee that the second member of franchise staff will be on all services. While the RMT want the second person to be a guard. I wonder if the RMT would be happy with the second member of franchise staff being a guard but the driver being in charge of the doors?

 

[FordFocus]

The ball is in ASLEF court on this one. Any form of drivers operating doors on Northern will probably require the clause they are safety critical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ball is in ASLEF court on this one. Any form of drivers operating doors on Northern will probably require the clause they are safety critical.

Implementing driver door release but guard door closing would probably deal with this, and would also be cheaper as no DOO equipment would be required, and it could probably be retrofitted to all the existing stock as well such that all Northern trains would use the same method of operation.

This is the method of operation I would support for Northern - indeed I support it for the entire network that is not DOO.

 

[danbarnstall]

Implementing driver door release but guard door closing would probably deal with this, and would also be cheaper as no DOO equipment would be required, and it could probably be retrofitted to all the existing stock as well such that all Northern trains would use the same method of operation.

This is the method of operation I would support for Northern - indeed I support it for the entire network that is not DOO.

Sounds like this will be resolved in a similar manner to ScotRails dispute. If door closing will be part of the onboard staff members duties then the role will be safety criticial.

 

[74A]

Sounds like this will be resolved in a similar manner to ScotRails dispute. If door closing will be part of the onboard staff members duties then the role will be safety criticial.

I doubt it. The Northern contract has a requirement for DOO. And if you read the RMT press release in full there is no mention of the guard doing the doors. For Northern to continue with the guard doing the doors would need a renegotiation of its contract which I can't see the government agreeing to any time soon.

 

[lejog]

I doubt it. The Northern contract has a requirement for DOO. And if you read the RMT press release in full there is no mention of the guard doing the doors. For Northern to continue with the guard doing the doors would need a renegotiation of its contract which I can't see the government agreeing to any time soon.

Indeed their contract states that they have to introduce DCO which means "operation of a train by a driver alone without the need for a conductor or any other Franchise Employee". A second member of staff should be present, but not necessary for operation of the train.

Any change to this will require the DfT's permission else Arriva will be in breach of contract.

 

[Andrew32]

Meeting today between RMT executive committee and ARN management where they will be asked to guarantee a second safety-critical person on every train.

Good luck with that!

 

[HH]

They have to introduce some DCO. OFC RMT would probably see this is "foot in the door", but it should mean that the financial stakes are a lot lower than on Southern, so they may well be able to get something close to the ScotRail deal if they're smart enough.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its more likely they would seek to implement DOO on Northern Connect services with the proviso of a second member of staff and only operating from platforms with dispatch staff. Wouldn't require much more resources if any from Northern and should be enough to mollify unions.

 

[Moonshot]

Its more likely they would seek to implement DOO on Northern Connect services with the proviso of a second member of staff and only operating from platforms with dispatch staff. Wouldn't require much more resources if any from Northern and should be enough to mollify unions.

that would seem likely to me as well

 

[northwichcat]

Its more likely they would seek to implement DOO on Northern Connect services with the proviso of a second member of staff and only operating from platforms with dispatch staff. Wouldn't require much more resources if any from Northern and should be enough to mollify unions.

Having new dispatchers would likely mean more DCO services both from Northern and other TOCs, as if the dispatchers are there the TOCs will want to get maximum use from them.

 

[WatcherZero]

I don't think they would need many new, most of the stations on Northern Connect routes have them already.

 

[Carlisle]

I don't think they would need many new, most of the stations on Northern Connect routes have them already.

Won't the new stock all be fitted with body side cameras as well?

 

[lejog]

I don't think they would need many new, most of the stations on Northern Connect routes have them already.

Really? Just choosing the Cheshire-Leeds Northern Connect service (not a random choice I admit) are there dispatchers at most of the following?

Chester, Ellesmere Port, Stanlow & Thornton, Ince & Elton, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Eccles, Victoria, Rochdale, Smithy Bridge, Littleborough, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Sowerby Bridge, Halifax, Bradford Interchange, New Pudsey, Bramley, Leeds.

Okay so many of these are peak hour only stops and for the smaller Calder Valley stations it may not be the Cheshire Northern Connect service that stops, but the Liverpool or Manchester Airport. However all will have Northern Connect services.

I look forward to seeing a dispatcher at Stanlow (88 passengers a year)