Class 387 to GN

[Failed Unit]

Hmm. Unlikely to be 10, as I saw 1P80 (2x387) depart from Plat 10 last night (viewed from the comfortable relative luxury of 2x317 on Plat 9!).

Definitely seen 387s depart from all of platforms 9 to 11.

I wonder which platform it was signalled into and the driver rejected it then. I have seen 387s in 7 & 8, we approached in the right tunnel (heading into KX) or left if you were leaving.

The morning train had got lost between Peterborough and Huntingdon, it auto announcer was very random and announcing stations via the Hertford loop.

 

[bramling]

I wonder which platform it was signalled into and the driver rejected it then. I have seen 387s in 7 & 8, we approached in the right tunnel (heading into KX) or left if you were leaving.

The morning train had got lost between Peterborough and Huntingdon, it auto announcer was very random and announcing stations via the Hertford loop.

2R46 surprisingly turned up 2x321 tonight. Rare as this diagram is normally solid 317s. If things stay as per WTT, this puts them on one of the diagrams starting out of Letchworth tomorrow.

The inside of 321401 was rather tatty, which was noticeable as generally the 321s have been well turned out during their time on the GN.

 

[whoosh]

Couple of interesting things today. This morning we were late into kings cross because we were signalled into a platform 387s are not cleared for. My guess is it was platform 10 as I can't say I have seen one on it. But what is the problem with it?

Today's auto announcer was "Emergency brakes are on service to Royston and Cambridge". Not good considering the service in question the 1722 ex kings cross was delayed on departure because of a train fault. Surely it shouldn't be broadcasting safety critical stuff?

Platform 10 must not have an 8 car 387 enter it (or a 4 car when there is already another 4 car in the platform), because when the train has to exit the station going North, there are issues with signal sighting as the signal is on the right hand side and visibility to the driver's right is limited by the gangway. To the extent that there needs to be 19 metres between a train and a right hand side signal to be sufficiently visible. Platform 10 starting signal does not meet this distance, so 387s have a restriction for this platform.


There are few 'bugs' in the announcements with sometimes parts of one message being interspersed with another. These are being collated and will be rectified at some point.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks Whoosh, we were 8 car so that would explain it. I wonder if there was some banter between the driver an signaller when the driver rejected the route? :-£

 

[Hadders]

There are few 'bugs' in the announcements with sometimes parts of one message being interspersed with another. These are being collated and will be rectified at some point.

I think 'few' is a bit on an understatement. Every 387 I've been on has had incorrect announcements at some point. Just switch it off till it can be rectified.

 

[philjo]

Oh dear. 7:46 from Letchworth (07:32 royston-Kings Cross) has been downgraded - it was 2x387 this morning instead of the usual 2x365.

After leaving Letchworth there was a procession of people walking back though the train looking for seats -seemed to be full and standing at that point.
when it is 2x365s there are still plenty of empty seats after Letchworth, so today anyone boarding at Hitchin would have to stand.
I have never seen so many people standing on this service before in normal conditions (i.e. normal train length and no other service cancellations). Passengers boarding at Welwyn North were stuggling to get on the train.

Auto-announcements at every station - "The Brakes are in emergency Position .... service to London kings cross"


At kings Cross - "please change for ... rear .. services" (the scrolling display said to change for London underground Services)

 

[bramling]

Oh dear. 7:46 from Letchworth (07:32 royston-Kings Cross) has been downgraded - it was 2x387 this morning instead of the usual 2x365.

After leaving Letchworth there was a procession of people walking back though the train looking for seats -seemed to be full and standing at that point.
when it is 2x365s there are still plenty of empty seats after Letchworth, so today anyone boarding at Hitchin would have to stand.
I have never seen so many people standing on this service before in normal conditions (i.e. normal train length and no other service cancellations). Passengers boarding at Welwyn North were stuggling to get on the train.

Auto-announcements at every station - "The Brakes are in emergency Position .... service to London kings cross"


At kings Cross - "please change for ... rear .. services" (the scrolling display said to change for London underground Services)

And the bad news is that 1R45 of which you speak is now booked for 2x387 after this weekend. There's quite a few high morning peak up trains which are converting to 387s, so this is not going to go down well at all.

For those preferring 365s, I believe 2R25, 1R43, 1P45,1P47, and 1R49 change to or remain 365s.

Let's watch the complaints pour in on Monday!

 

[Failed Unit]

Going to be interesting.

Considering the train before is the 2C91 0657 Cambridge- London kings Cross. Which is very full as 2x 317s. I suspect people will be denied boarding this wait for 1R47 following to find out it is just as bad and then need to wait 30 minutes for the next one.

I am thinking about using the services starting at WGC. But why should my journey be extended by 15 - 30 minutes because GTR have decided to use smaller trains?

 

[D365]

What make the 387s "smaller"? Is there less standing space or something?

 

[Failed Unit]

What make the 387s "smaller"? Is there less standing space or something?

Yep. Nearly 70 less seats per 4 car set and no more physical space to stand in. (They are not like the 700s. They have arm rests etc so a much smaller crush loading than 317s

 

[jon0844]

What make the 387s "smaller"? Is there less standing space or something?

Poor internal layout. Get a seat and you're fine (not everyone finds them uncomfortable). But the size of the seats with the armrests makes it harder to move down the aisles.

So, while the middle seat on a 317 or 321 was far from ideal, at least in the peaks you could squeeze in.

Now you have less seats AND no more room in the aisles. Which means there are more people now forced to stand in the aisles, and it's near impossible to move through the train (say, to go to the toilet, or store bags in a luggage rack).

They're not suitable for their current use. Fine for off-peak operation. Fine, hopefully, when they go onto the fast Cambridge services and run as 12 car.

If it was possible to make all 4 car trains become 8, and 8 become 12 then fine (admittedly, you might still find many carriages squashed and some empty - but that would sort itself out in time) but for now, people are seeing a definite downgrade.

Until 700s start arriving, GTR should declassify first class at the very least.

 

[bramling]

Fine for off-peak operation. Fine, hopefully, when they go onto the fast Cambridge services and run as 12 car.

I'm not even sure about that. Fine off-peak as long as they're 8-car maybe, although this still means you have more chance of someone sitting next to you/opposite, or perhaps less chance of getting a 'table' seat (which can already be an issue at weekends since the 365s had their layout changed - all of a sudden I started seeing a fair few squabbles when people turn up at the last minute and expect a table for their group). Definitely *not* fine on 4-car services.

Funnily enough, I had a ranting text message from a (non-railway-interested) friend, complaining that the train he boarded from Hatfield to London in the middle of the day was ram packed. Looking at the time, and without even looking at the diagrams I just knew it was going to be a 387, and sure enough it was 1x387.

Likewise, remember the Cambridge fasts often call at Letchworth and Royston, plus some of them can be pretty crush-loaded around Cambridge. Again, fine if there's an explosion in capacity by copious 4-to-8 and 8-to-12 upgrades, or extra services. But if we don't see this, the reality will be people who get a seat now probably won't in the future. People don't want to be standing for journeys like Royston to London, or even Cambridge to Ely.

 

[Failed Unit]

It does make me wonder if people are trolling when they challenge the reduced capability. Comparisons of seating numbers of the various units on the route have got posted several times.

We will get it was never a problem on Thameslink next...

 

[bramling]

It does make me wonder if people are trolling when they challenge the reduced capability. Comparisons of seating numbers of the various units on the route have got posted several times.

We will get it was never a problem on Thameslink next...

It is very obvious in real life.

The way the GN is run, there are certain services which see different types of stock from one day to the next. Generally when 365s turn up instead of 317/321s it doesn't seem to make much difference to the number of seats available. However when 387s turn up it's immediately noticeable that there are way fewer free seats. Same applies on lightly-loaded services too - it's very noticeable how the number of free seats is much less and a previously spacious service now feels quite busy.

All the usual suspects will throw in reasons like "maybe it was half term week", or "maybe it was a Friday", or whatever, when we try to compare loadings. But in reality there's no getting away from the fact the 387s simply don't use the interior space efficiently, especially when compared to 365s which do.

 

[jon0844]

It's clear the interior of the 387 is more cramped than a 365, and akin to a 317 (almost, but not quite) with only 4 seats across.

If the arm rests were removed in the aisles that might help a bit. Perhaps keen them in first class to actually make them a bit more luxurious!

 

[bramling]

It's clear the interior of the 387 is more cramped than a 365, and akin to a 317 (almost, but not quite) with only 4 seats across.

If the arm rests were removed in the aisles that might help a bit. Perhaps keen them in first class to actually make them a bit more luxurious!

Yes by all means remove the armrests. They're a pain when walking through the train as they seem to be particularly prone to snagging clothing on. Meanwhile I find them too high to be comfortable when seated (actually I find this on the earlier Electrostars too, to be fair), and with the well-known class 387 rough ride I find myself banging my elbows on them on the frequent occasions when the train jolts from side to side.

My only issue with keeping them in First is it would give GTR another reason why it's more difficult and/or costly to remedy their stupid faux-pas on the location of first class.

 

[jon0844]

I catch my man bag when walking through, but I can see how they'll catch anything. And I bet a lot of people don't even use them, having them folded up anyway.

These are trains far more suited for relatively few stops and a long time between stations.

 

[bramling]

I catch my man bag when walking through, but I can see how they'll catch anything. And I bet a lot of people don't even use them, having them folded up anyway.

Yes it's noticeable that most of them tend to be in the upright position. What bugs me is that the one adjacent to the windows is fixed down.

These are trains far more suited for relatively few stops and a long time between stations.

... but not longer journeys when the hard seats really begin to bite. A layout and seats akin to the class 357, perhaps with less 3+2, would work better.

Needless to say, we already have something perfectly suited to the route, it's called the class 365!

 

[SPADTrap]

Entertaining announcements from many Class 387 PIDS:

Doors released at station; 'Brake controls are in the emergency position, service to Cambridge;

Doors released at station; 'PTOSL(W) MCB trip, service to Cambridge'

Arrival at Cambridge; 'Coaches Grand Central to East Coast, terminate here'

Something got muddled!

 

[SPADTrap]

Today's auto announcer was "Emergency brakes are on service to Royston and Cambridge". Not good considering the service in question the 1722 ex kings cross was delayed on departure because of a train fault. Surely it shouldn't be broadcasting safety critical stuff?

Well they technically are given the door release.

 

[Hadders]

Needless to say, we already have something perfectly suited to the route, it's called the class 365!

Well said. Why the hell GTR can't see it is beyond me.

And when is someone going to put the PIS on the 387s out of its misery and just switch it off till its fixed.

 

[D365]

Well said. Why the hell GTR can't see it is beyond me.

What, so an increase in fleet size, SDO capability and the like is completely irrelevant?

 

[Failed Unit]

What, so an increase in fleet size, SDO capability and the like is completely irrelevant?

It would be. But they refuse to use it. Saturday services are leaving people behind as they are only 4 coaches. Using SDO would solve this and actually improve the journey. Instead the choose to reduce capacity and increase dwell times as people try to force thier way on the train. Fine have increase fleet size and SDO. But at the moment it is like for like with less seats.

 

[urpert]

Entertaining announcements from many Class 387 PIDS:

Doors released at station; 'Brake controls are in the emergency position, service to Cambridge;

Doors released at station; 'PTOSL(W) MCB trip, service to Cambridge'

Arrival at Cambridge; 'Coaches Grand Central to East Coast, terminate here'

Something got muddled!

This is like something from the Train-related Dreams thread.

 

[Antman]

viewed from the comfortable relative luxury of 2x317

Really? They (and the 321) are horrible trains. Sooner they are disposed of the better.

 

[MatthewRead]

Really? They (and the 321) are horrible trains. Sooner they are disposed of the better.

Oh no the 317's and 321's are comfortable with proper padding unlike those horrible ironing board seats!

 

[Hadders]

Oh no the 317's and 321's are comfortable with proper padding unlike those horrible ironing board seats!

I agree they're not the best but they're better than standing on a 387 being used on an inappropriate service during the peaks.

 

[D365]

Oh no the 317's and 321's are comfortable with proper padding unlike those horrible ironing board seats!

By "proper padding" I take it you mean the uncomfortable cushions and excessively low seats, especially on the Class 317s.

 

[bramling]

By "proper padding" I take it you mean the uncomfortable cushions and excessively low seats, especially on the Class 317s.

I'm tempted to measure the height of the 317 seats as I don't think they're low. Personally I find them quite agreeable, and in the 30 years they have been on the GN I have never heard anyone moan about them being uncomfortable. 387s on the other hand... I do accept the legroom on the 317s is a little cramped if you have someone sitting opposite (less likely than a 387 due to the 3+2 however). But I'd rather have less legroom in the high peak if it means I get a seat.

 

[Class377/5]

Entertaining announcements from many Class 387 PIDS:

Doors released at station; 'Brake controls are in the emergency position, service to Cambridge;

Doors released at station; 'PTOSL(W) MCB trip, service to Cambridge'

Arrival at Cambridge; 'Coaches Grand Central to East Coast, terminate here'

Something got muddled!

New software update went a tad late. Fix incoming.

Well said. Why the hell GTR can't see it is beyond me.

And when is someone going to put the PIS on the 387s out of its misery and just switch it off till its fixed.

Because now you get fined if your not announcing/displaying on for blind/deaf people. Might be funny joke to see the message up but if you have problems, ie your blind, then all the PA announcements in the world won't help. And post 2020 it'll be treated very seriously.