Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought a private business would deliberately price their product out of the market, leaving them with assets that aren't making a return - for political purposes.

There was a special agreement to lease the ex-BR fleet back from the ROSCOs, for (I think) 7 years, or the typical length of the initial franchises.
It was known as the MOLA (Master Operating Lease Agreement).
That fixed the lease charges similar to new stock to prevent the TOCs rushing for new trains.
Much BR stock was of course then fairly new (Networkers, Mk4s, 158s, even 319s).
Ten years later there was a massive row between DfT and the ROSCOs, because they didn't bring prices down.
The MMC/CMA told them it was their (DfT) fault for fixing the market and micromanaging the purchase and allocation of rolling stock.
Things should be on a strictly commercial basis now, but we are only just coming into an era of "spare" rolling stock.
The DfT is still "fixing the market" with its purchase of IEP, Thameslink and Crossrail stock, with HS2 to come.
But the rest of the market is supposed to be "free".

 

[modernrail]

Well this is encouraging. It would appear to be the first time since privatisation that genuinely spare units will combine with new electrification and a decent engineering idea to produce something that could be transformational. I do not consider the current franchise commitments to be transformational, just playing catch up.

As for the droll comment on the time machine, get yourself onto Northern Rail - it is one if the easiest ways in the UK to experience life 20 years ago. The distinction I was drawing, not that well, was between a rolling stock issue, which is the problem over most of the northern network, with a much more fundamental issue, which is how I would class TPE. That route needs major surgery to make it fit for purpose and so it can start to extract traffic from the M62.

If I did have my Pacer time machine, Halle Berry would not even be in my top 5. I am sure she is a lovely lady though. Halle, if you happen to follow railforums, please don't be offended!

 

[najaB]

No, this was the Government which made it happen. ...If they hadn't then it is more than obvious that the incoming private operators would have used the old trains for as long as they could, making the public think that privatisation was a terrible idea.

There was a special agreement to lease the ex-BR fleet back from the ROSCOs, for (I think) 7 years, or the typical length of the initial franchises.
It was known as the MOLA (Master Operating Lease Agreement).
That fixed the lease charges similar to new stock to prevent the TOCs rushing for new trains.

Hmm... two posts making diametrically opposing claims. First there was fake news, now it seems there's fake posts!

Sorry, NotATrainspott, but I'm going to go with LNW-GW Joint's post as more accurately reflecting the reality of events since it provides facts that I'm able to independently verify. To whit, the ORR's making a referral to the Markets Commission for an investigation of the market, in which there is a reference to the MOLA and the effect the rates had on distorting the market.

 

[najaB]

As for the droll comment on the time machine...

The point I was making is that it's all fine and good to say what should have happened (with the additional benefit of hindsight) but it really doesn't add that much to the discussion.

 

[modernrail]

Still a bit droll, especially as I had my calculator out for the rest of the post. The other point is that one problem can be fixed pretty quickly, whereas the TPE cannot, it will take about 20 years on past performance in the UK. I think most people along that line have been making the case for a long time, it didn't need hindsight. Unfortunately we have been subject to centralised decision making that can only be described as daft.

 

[deltic08]

The Wallgate bridge is the first of several clearence problems on the Southport line but is the only one that would be required to turn Wallgate into a sensible AC / diesel changeover point. The problem with a neutral section solution is that it is so close to the station you cannot just coast through. As has been mentioned, a changeover at Ince would work, but then extra calls would need to be made just for the changeover.

I am certainly interested in how this project goes. There are many places that could find a use for them, andwith the number of 319s becoming available, no shortage of stock to utilise I'd the testing proves a success.

But if the overhead wire is continuous throughout to Southport, it would only be a case of the diesel engines cutting in and out using trackside balises when negotiating the long neutral section at Wigan Wallgate. I thought someone mentioned it would be unnecessary to stop when changing mode.

 

[deltic08]

the lhcs of course can be converted to electricity by taking the 68 off the end and putting an electric locomotive on instead. I believe this is the long-term intention.

90 001-90 015

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the track could be lowered at Wigan Wallgate, how much would it need to be dropped by to get the required clearance?

 

[deltic08]

No, this was the Government which made it happen. As I said, new trains are politically popular, and the only way to make the privatised railway invest in new trains is to make the old ones unusually expensive. If they hadn't then it is more than obvious that the incoming private operators would have used the old trains for as long as they could, making the public think that privatisation was a terrible idea.

So privatisation has made fares more expensive than they need have been.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought someone mentioned it would be unnecessary to stop when changing mode.

Some people seem to know a lot about what these 319 bi-modes will and won't be able to do from very little official information!

 

[IanXC]

I really don't understand why we're getting so wrapped up in the idea of Flex to Southport, and even if you take that as a given theres presumably no issue in these trains having to call at Ince, as they will undoubtedly be the stoppers anyway. Unless we're proposing that the Southport to Manchester express service, which will continue to Leeds, will be operated by Flex units!

 

[modernrail]

I think Southport is just being used as an example route.

I am not sure that a through train beyond Southport adds much value and so would promote a switch in the franchise agreement there. I say that as somebody who has done Southport to Leeds twice this week on business! I would much prefer re-timed and increased services to match better with West Coast services at Wigan and connections in Manchester, rather than a through train to one destination.

However, my main point revolves around the potential opportunity presented by spare stock at a decent price.

 

[CosherB]

90 001-90 015

What, all of them?! hock:

 

[D365]

What, all of them?! hock:

I'm confused.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not sure that a through train beyond Southport adds much value and so would promote a switch in the franchise agreement there. I say that as somebody who has done Southport to Leeds twice this week on business! I would much prefer re-timed and increased services to match better with West Coast services at Wigan and connections in Manchester, rather than a through train to one destination.

I'd actually go for a mini West-Lancs-Takt and look to modify the service from being almost regular interval to being 100% so (maybe with the odd peak extra slotted in). Ormskirk-Preston is to go hourly[1] and so it'd fit nicely with that.

"The trains to Wigan and Manchester are always at 12 and 42 during the day" is much more of a selling point than whether one of them omits Hoscar or not to save about 2 minutes. I'd either switch Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane to being request stops on all trains, or just close them given that they basically serve near enough nothing whatosever.

[1] I wonder where it'll run through to? With an end to end time of (without looking it up) around 30 minutes, or *only just* too much to do hourly with one unit, two dedicated units will spend a lot of time sat doing nothing. ISTR when it was previously hourly in the early 1990s it ran to Blackpool South.

 

[Elecman]

If the track could be lowered at Wigan Wallgate, how much would it need to be dropped by to get the required clearance?

It can't be lowered by much as there is a main sewer running under the tracks by Dorning Street depot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm confused.

I think the suggestion was which electric locomotives TPE could use to haul the Mk5b coaches post-electrification, wasn't it?

My inclination is more that it would be a new build locomotive of some kind. Or build some new EMUs and ship the 68s and coaches off to Scotland, where they would be a good replacement for the HSTs which will be getting on somewhat by then.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the suggestion was which electric locomotives TPE could use to haul the Mk5b coaches post-electrification, wasn't it?

My inclination is more that it would be a new build locomotive of some kind. Or build some new EMUs and ship the 68s and coaches off to Scotland, where they would be a good replacement for the HSTs which will be getting on somewhat by then.

The TPE franchise agreement does mention getting additional electric only sets, switching the 68s for 88s and returning more 185s post Manchester to York electrification. I'd guess that suggests 88 hauled mk5s remaining on North TPE services like Scarborough where they would have shortish sections not under the wires where the trains don't get up to high speeds.

 

[edwin_m]

The TPE franchise agreement does mention getting additional electric only sets, switching the 68s for 88s and returning more 185s post Manchester to York electrification. I'd guess that suggests 88 hauled mk5s remaining on North TPE services like Scarborough where they would have shortish sections not under the wires where the trains don't get up to high speeds.

Don't think the diesel in an 88 is up to even the Scarborough branch - essentially it's a "last mile" unit for low-speed access to freight terminals etc. Following Manchester-York electrification the LHCS could switch to the Edinburgh and Newcastle diagrams, allowing the Hitachi units to work bi-mode to Middlesbrough and Scarborough.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the plan was to run the North TPE Edinburgh service at up to 125mph once the AT300s are introduced, which wouldn't work if the AT300s are replaced by 88 hauled sets.

 

[daikilo]

Don't think the diesel in an 88 is up to even the Scarborough branch - essentially it's a "last mile" unit for low-speed access to freight terminals etc.

Vossloh quotes 950hp, which should have no difficulty handling say a 5 coach rake at medium speed.

 

[najaB]

Vossloh quotes 950hp, which should have no difficulty handling say a 5 coach rake at medium speed.

In the dead of winter when it's -5°C outside and the set's been sitting for a while?

 

[furnessvale]

Don't think the diesel in an 88 is up to even the Scarborough branch - essentially it's a "last mile" unit for low-speed access to freight terminals etc.

Vossloh quotes 950hp, which should have no difficulty handling say a 5 coach rake at medium speed.

Well below current expectations though.

 

[markydh]

I thought the plan was to run the North TPE Edinburgh service at up to 125mph once the AT300s are introduced, which wouldn't work if the AT300s are replaced by 88 hauled sets.

I thought the plan was LHCS on Newcastle diagrams UNTIL the AT300s are available at which point they will switch to the Middlesbrough and Scarborough services?

 

[notlob.divad]

I'm sorry, but what does any of this discussion of TPE services have anything to do with the 319 flex project?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I thought the plan was LHCS on Newcastle diagrams UNTIL the AT300s are available at which point they will switch to the Middlesbrough and Scarborough services?

Thats the plan.

397s replace the 350s and 185s will remain on the hulls, south route and the "semi-fasts" mostly running as 6 car sets

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I'm sorry, but what does any of this discussion of TPE services have anything to do with the 319 flex project?

It does as deployment of TPEs stock will have an effect on northern, bearing in mind the 6TPH plan, the introduction of Northern Connect services along the calder and the fact there are 22 185s currently deployed on Northern operated MIA-BPN/WDM services becoming homeless (SWT has been suggested internally)

 

[northwichcat]

(SWT has been suggested internally)

DfT suggested SWT bidders would like to look at the option of the released 185s but Stagecoach have been looking at the option of brand new self-powered trains. If they were to go for FLIRT bi-modes like Anglia then it won't say much for Porterbrook's 319 Flex.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DfT suggested SWT bidders would like to look at the option of the released 185s but Stagecoach have been looking at the option of brand new self-powered trains. If they were to go for FLIRT bi-modes like Anglia then it won't say much for Porterbrook's 319 Flex.

If the money is there for new, why would they buy used?

 

[northwichcat]

If the money is there for new, why would they buy used?

A cheaper option might allow a longer average train length.

The SWT and LM franchises may possibly be the first franchises ever where they've had a choice of taking on various different types of existing EMUs, opposed to the class of train DfT have dumped on them or new build if DfT haven't dumped a class on them.