Question regarding turning Class 68 engines off

[najaB]

And these functions rely on the ETS load and there would be no light and heat if ETS turned off, even if loco was idling?

Sorry to be dense.

No need to apologise.

To clarify - ETS is Electric Train Supply which powers the hotel load as you correctly call it, which is all the things that make a train carriage a nice place to be (light, heat, sockets for phones, water heaters, ovens and coffee machines in the buffet, etc).

It can be supplied by a generator connected to the locomotive engine or by a separate engine - either in the locomotive itself or in Chiltern's case by a diesel generator in the DVT. With DMUs the generator is normally connected to the drive engines in each powered carriage. The energy for the ETS generator has to come from somewhere so switching it to 'ON' in the locomotive means the engine has to run faster.

With regards to lighting, coaches have a battery which can supply the lighting circuit when there is no ETS supply available, but they have a limited capacity (I would think 30 minutes to a couple hour's lighting at most) and cannot power heavy loads such as the HVAC system or water heaters or ovens.

So, if the loco is idling with the ETS switched off the idle speed would be lower but the lights would be running off battery and there would be no heating or ventilation, nor could the cleaners plug a vacuum cleaner in or have any hot water.

 

[putabidin]

It's quite possible that more low-frequency sound is emitted when at a lower RPM. You might wish to arrange some time with Chiltern to sample the different modes and establish for sure which is least intrusive.

Thanks for the suggestion. I shall do that.

 

[putabidin]

No need to apologise.

So, if the loco is idling with the ETS switched off the idle speed would be lower but the lights would be running off battery and there would be no heating or ventilation, nor could the cleaners plug a vacuum cleaner in or have any hot water.

Great explanation. Thanks.

One other question.
When a train comes in and the stay is long. eg the 15.38 arrival which departs at 16.15, it is turned off. That usually happens within a couple of minutes of arrival. It is then turned on again about 13 minutes before departure. How does the cleaning get done without the engine powering the ETS?

 

[najaB]

When a train comes in and the stay is long. eg the 15.38 arrival which departs at 16.15, it is turned off. That usually happens within a couple of minutes of arrival. It is then turned on again about 13 minutes before departure. How does the cleaning get done without the engine powering the ETS?

The small diesel engine in the DVT would be providing the power.

 

[putabidin]

The small diesel engine in the DVT would be providing the power.

OK. So why does the ETS not use that small engine instead of the main engine when in the station for the 25 minute stay, enabling the lower revs. to be used and, therefore, in theory, reduced decibels?

Or have you already answered that and I missed it?

More straw clutching.

 

[rebmcr]

OK. So why does the ETS not use that small engine instead of the main engine when in the station for the 25 minute stay, enabling the lower revs. to be used and, therefore, in theory, reduced decibels?

Or have you already answered that and I missed it?

More straw clutching.

Depending on whether the sound does indeed change enough, this might be an option to suggest to Chiltern. In the event it makes a difference, radio control of the generator in the DVT would further streamline the procedure.

(I'm not sure of whether you have been informed yet, but the DVT is the mostly-empty carriage containing the 'other' driving cab, almost always at the London end of the trains).

 

[87015]

OK. So why does the ETS not use that small engine instead of the main engine when in the station for the 25 minute stay, enabling the lower revs. to be used and, therefore, in theory, reduced decibels?

Or have you already answered that and I missed it?

More straw clutching.

Requires the full shut down and start up procedure which requires an absolute minimum of 27 (10+17) minutes from earlier posts.

 

[najaB]

Requires the full shut down and start up procedure which requires an absolute minimum of 27 (10+17) minutes from earlier posts.

Plus the walking time from end to end.

 

[putabidin]

Requires the full shut down and start up procedure which requires an absolute minimum of 27 (10+17) minutes from earlier posts.

Thanks.
I got the bit about the walk, but I hoped the driver could walk down, switch off the EPS at the loco end, walk back and turn on as he passed the DVT end. Then go off for his/her cup off tea and all day English breakfast.

Ah, Well. Just a thought.

 

[najaB]

I got the bit about the walk, but I hoped the driver could walk down, switch off the EPS at the loco end, walk back and turn on as he passed the DVT end. Then go off for his/her cup off tea and all day English breakfast.

I suppose, in theory, you could leave the loco running but with ETS turned off but then you've got two engines running instead of one.

 

[rebmcr]

I suppose, in theory, you could leave the loco running but with ETS turned off but then you've got two engines running instead of one.

It is possible that it would reduce the sound profile though.

 

[najaB]

It is possible that it would reduce the sound profile though.

Possible. Though it might be hard to justify on air pollution grounds.

 

[putabidin]

I suppose, in theory, you could leave the loco running but with ETS turned off but then you've got two engines running instead of one.

I haven't been conscious of any significant sound emanating from the small engine in the DVT when the trains are switched off. Maybe because it is under the canopy.

At our next meeting with Chiltern I shall suggest that this is trialled and see whether we can achieve a meaningful reduction in the idling noise. As I said previously, we have been aware that there are two different idling speeds and that the quieter one is quite a bit more acceptable.

There could be some resistance from the drivers, who would have to walk the train length. Having said that, there is very meaningful co-operation from them regarding the switch off procedures. They seem to recognise our concerns and seem sympathetic.

Are we sure that the full shutdown and start up routine would not be needed, as in a previous answer from 87015?

 

[najaB]

Are we sure that the full shutdown and start up routine would not be needed, as in a previous answer from 87015?

Not if the loco engine is never shut down, no. The compressor, etc. will still be running so no need to recharge the air system and so on.

 

[Pete_uk]

Here is a option that I believe DB Schenker are using on some 66's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq0y__Qzke0&feature=youtu.be

 

[najaB]

Here is a option that I believe DB Schenker are using on some 66's...

That's where the original thread started - with the about using shore supplies.

 

[putabidin]

Not if the loco engine is never shut down, no. The compressor, etc. will still be running so no need to recharge the air system and so on.

So, 13 pages and all I've got is:
thanks for those who chose to respond to my questions in a helpful way:
an enhanced knowledge of various hybrid locos:
the difference between a DVT, an ETS and a DMU
the start up and shut down routine for Class 68s:
and
the fact that there is nothing anyone can advise is to do that is going to make a real difference to our lives.

Except..
a)trying to get someone to pay for an enhanced acoustic barrier and
b)the hope that we can achieve slightly less noise from the 68s by persuading the drivers and Chiltern to modify some procedures on our behalf.

I can only hope that the groundswell of anti-diesel opinion translates into funding for electrification of the Chiltern line, eventually.

Many lives will be changed and saved when that happens.

 

[najaB]

the fact that there is nothing anyone can advise is to do that is going to make a real difference to our lives.

Unfortunately, the nature of the industry is that it's not easy or cheap to make major changes. Unless you have a massive pot of money all you can aim for is small changes that hopefully add up to something meaningful.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I can only hope that the groundswell of anti-diesel opinion translates into funding for electrification of the Chiltern line, eventually.

The best business case for Chiltern electrification is as a follow on from that of the CrossCountry "core" (which itself has Didcot - Oxford, now indefinitely deferred, as a dependency) and East-West Rail. In terms of the Chiltern route, the former would cover Aynho Junction - Tyseley(ish) and the latter would cover Princes Risborough - Aylesbury Vale Parkway, thus significantly reducing the length still to be wired.

The short version is that there is no way it'll be done before the end of the current franchise in December 2021, and realistically I'd suggest it'll be at least Control Period 7 (2024-2029) before it'll be on the cards...

It's also worth noting that the 165s will be pushing 30 years old by the end of the current franchise, so I would guess new trains will be on the cards for the replacement franchise.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The best business case for Chiltern electrification is as a follow on from that of the CrossCountry "core" (which itself has Didcot - Oxford, now indefinitely deferred, as a dependency) and East-West Rail. In terms of the Chiltern route, the former would cover Aynho Junction - Tyseley(ish) and the latter would cover Princes Risborough - Aylesbury Vale Parkway, thus significantly reducing the length still to be wired.

If that were to happen, would it be worth tagging on conversion of the Watford DC line as either part of the scheme or as a follow on scheme?

 

[D365]

If that were to happen, would it be worth tagging on conversion of the Watford DC line as either part of the scheme or as a follow on scheme?

How is the Watford line related to either of those routes?

 

[t_star2001uk]

So, 13 pages and all I've got is:
thanks for those who chose to respond to my questions in a helpful way:
an enhanced knowledge of various hybrid locos:
the difference between a DVT, an ETS and a DMU
the start up and shut down routine for Class 68s:
and
the fact that there is nothing anyone can advise is to do that is going to make a real difference to our lives.

Except..
a)trying to get someone to pay for an enhanced acoustic barrier and
b)the hope that we can achieve slightly less noise from the 68s by persuading the drivers and Chiltern to modify some procedures on our behalf.

I can only hope that the groundswell of anti-diesel opinion translates into funding for electrification of the Chiltern line, eventually.

Many lives will be changed and saved when that happens.

So using this week, as an example. How many times have you been disturbed by the noise from 68's. And at roughly what time of day..

 

[D365]

the hope that we can achieve slightly less noise from the 68s by persuading the drivers and Chiltern to modify some procedures on our behalf.

Good luck with that.

Many lives will be changed and saved when that happens.

Imagine if Marylebone had actually been converted to a bus terminal...

 

[Clip]

Many lives will be changed and saved when that happens.

I hope you have mentioned this on bus and taxi forums too because they are just as guilty for the whole of Londons pollution and not just one small corner of very expensive housing.

 

[putabidin]

So using this week, as an example. How many times have you been disturbed by the noise from 68's. And at roughly what time of day..

This week was a little disrupted, so I'll give you a typical week.
The people most effected are those who live and work to the north and east of the station. I'm only talking about the 68s here. The DMUs are a different matter.

There are 16 trains a day, starting at 7.28 and finishing 20.20.

Between 7.28 and 18.18 there are 14 of these.

In that 11 hours only 4 shutdown. The rest idle for between 16 and 23 minutes each.

For 3.7 hours in the 11 hour period there is a Class 68 idling at the platform. Twice during that period two are idling at the same time, which is even more horrendous.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How is the Watford line related to either of those routes?

I thought that the Watford DC line shares tracks with the Chiltern Main Line for a bit, or is it just the LU and LO that share tracks?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I thought that the Watford DC line shares tracks with the Chiltern Main Line for a bit, or is it just the LU and LO that share tracks?

The route via Amersham to Aylesbury is a secondary route for Chiltern and it shares tracks beyond Neasden with LU's Metropolitan line.

The Watford DC service is operated by LO and shares tracks with LU's Bakerloo line.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The route via Amersham to Aylesbury is a secondary route for Chiltern and it shares tracks beyond Neasden with LU's Metropolitan line.

That must have been the route that I was thinking of then

 

[furnessvale]

Imagine if Marylebone had actually been converted to a bus terminal...

Indeed, the thought of two express coaches passing in the tunnel at a closing speed of 140mph with less than 18" clearance between them, still makes me laugh at the people who thought that scheme up!

 

[TimboM]

Was driving over the WCML this morning. The track is largely obscured by bushes etc. I suddenly heard this deep growling noise/vibration coming from under the car and thought something was wrong with my motor. But I then realised it was the 2x68s on the Tesco Express passing underneath the bridge. I sympathise with putabidin and his fellow residents - those things make some serious noise/vibrations!