South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Solaris]

Yes we know, you keep saying but what about everywhere else, ie. What's now being called the 'non-core' valley lines south of queen street? Any mention of any improvements to those lines seems to have evaporated.......maybe that's because those lines aren't getting any.

Lets see what comes out of the procurement process.....

 

[Envoy]

Looks like the so called ‘Transport Interchange’ - Cardiff’s new bus station (if you can call it that) - will get the go-ahead next Wednesday - despite ATW & Network Rail objecting.

Cardiff’s new bus station looks set to get its final approval next week – but without the support of Wales’ main train operator or Network Rail.

The planning application is going before planners on Wednesday and includes intricate detail about the station will look and operate as well as the effect on neighbouring roads.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiffs-new-bus-station-finally-12653932

 

[gareth950]

Just the 1960s design of that 'bus station' is enough to reject permission surely?

Unfortunately this seems to be Cardiff Council's approach to planning at the moment. If the Welsh Govt wants it or there's big money involved/to be made, a development gets the go-ahead, no matter how many objections there are.

The same thing happened on Park Place in Cathays a few weeks ago. Cardiff University want to build a new 'centre for student life' that will be built over the current student's union, which is already built over the railway. Network Rail objected becsuse it will severly restrict access to Cathays station from Park Place. Local councillors and conservation groups voiced strong objections as it will completely dominate Park Place and alter the character of the area, which is designated a 'conservation area' due to the historic civic centre character and buildings in Cathays. But it was waved through by Cardiff council anyway.

There's the same situation over in Cardiff West, where masses of new housing will be built, despite there being no rail links from the Metro into Cardiff proposed, just 'express bus routes'.

 

[Hwnt52]

Just the 1960s design of that 'bus station' is enough to reject permission surely?

Unfortunately this seems to be Cardiff Council's approach to planning at the moment. If the Welsh Govt wants it or there's big money involved/to be made, a development gets the go-ahead, no matter how many objections there are.

The same thing happened on Park Place in Cathays a few weeks ago. Cardiff University want to build a new 'centre for student life' that will be built over the current student's union, which is already built over the railway. Network Rail objected becsuse it will severly restrict access to Cathays station from Park Place. Local councillors and conservation groups voiced strong objections as it will completely dominate Park Place and alter the character of the area, which is designated a 'conservation area' due to the historic civic centre character and buildings in Cathays. But it was waved through by Cardiff council anyway.

There's the same situation over in Cardiff West, where masses of new housing will be built, despite there being no rail links from the Metro into Cardiff proposed, just 'express bus routes'.

-
Presumably these 'Express Buses' will travel into the city via Llantrisant Road, Llandaf and Cathedral Road. With a bit of luck in the morning rush hour you might arrive by lunchtime. The rush by Cardiff Council to pass these 'plans' has of course nothing to do with the elections in May when the present ruling clique are likely to lose control.

 

[gareth950]

-
Presumably these 'Express Buses' will travel into the city via Llantrisant Road, Llandaf and Cathedral Road. With a bit of luck in the morning rush hour you might arrive by lunchtime. The rush by Cardiff Council to pass these 'plans' has of course nothing to do with the elections in May when the present ruling clique are likely to lose control.

May's local elections are a big factor of course, but the plans have to be approved and recommended by professional Planners first, who one assumes are supposed to be politically neutral, so the looming council elections can't be the only reason why so many controversial, big money developments have been approved in Cardiff recently.

 

[Envoy]

May's local elections are a big factor of course, but the plans have to be approved and recommended by professional Planners first, who one assumes are supposed to be politically neutral, so the looming council elections can't be the only reason why so many controversial, big money developments have been approved in Cardiff recently.

Yes, the Planners who years ago thought it would be a good idea to ram a cinema/entertainment complex right up against the southern side of the Millennium Stadium. (Labour Council at the time).

Some years later, having created a pleasant green space to the east of St.David’s 2, these planners allowed this land to be sold off for the Admiral office block. So, we now have lost a pleasant green space in the heart of the city for a wind blown area that is mainly in shadow. Meanwhile, the Rapport site next to Churchill Way remains semi derelict. How much better things would have been had the Admiral block been located on that land? However, that land was not Council owned but the green space was. (Lib Dems & Plaid Cymru were running the Council at the time).

The next disaster area courtesy of Cardiff’s Planners is likely to be Britannia Park. This is the park that was created near the Norwegian Church back in the early 1990’s. Apparently, plans have been drawn up to build a massive apartment block on this land along with restaurants along the quaysides. The amount of green space will be significantly reduced and be overshadowed in the mornings by the massive apartment block. So, it would appear that developers go to Cardiff’s Planners with their ideas, planners say that seems to be OK and detailed plans are drawn up, they then go through all the legal stuff whereby the public can object. Then plans get ‘recommend’ to the Councillors on the planning committee who vote the thing through. More on Britannia Park here:>http://www.dolffinquay.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Dolffin-Quay-Exhibition.pdf
and http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/news-opinion/cardiff-risks-becoming-city-shadows-12414160#rlabs=1%20rt$sitewide%20p$4

This is the first look at a building which could change the skyline of Cardiff Bay.

Developers want to build this 20 storey building at a new development called Dolffin Quay.

 

[Envoy]

-
Presumably these 'Express Buses' will travel into the city via Llantrisant Road, Llandaf and Cathedral Road. With a bit of luck in the morning rush hour you might arrive by lunchtime. The rush by Cardiff Council to pass these 'plans' has of course nothing to do with the elections in May when the present ruling clique are likely to lose control.

Yes, these are likely to be the routes for the so called ‘Express Buses’ from the Plas Dwr development. I note that the Plas Dwr plans do not show any proposed sites for stations - should the new rail line to Cregiau ever be built. (Current plans show it will be a cycleway).

I also note that that the Metro Map issued by the Welsh Government shows a rail station on the City Line at Ely Mill. Guess what? The plans for the Ely Mill development have been drawn up with no railway station present - or land set aside for this. The plans show new buildings rammed right up against the City Line. Building is starting now on this site.

 

[CardiffKid]

Some years later, having created a pleasant green space to the east of St.David’s 2, these planners allowed this land to be sold off for the Admiral office block. So, we now have lost a pleasant green space in the heart of the city for a wind blown area that is mainly in shadow. Meanwhile, the Rapport site next to Churchill Way remains semi derelict. How much better things would have been had the Admiral block been located on that land? However, that land was not Council owned but the green space was. (Lib Dems & Plaid Cymru were running the Council at the time).

The Admiral building is built on the site of an old NCP multi-story that was knocked down during the construction of SD2. The land was always planned to be built on.

There is an annual film festival held in the nearby Ciniworld cinema, the organisers of which asked Rapport to tidy the area up ahead of the festival. That is why the pleasant bit of grass and a few trees where planted. If anything Rapport did too much of a good job tarting it up.

Would I like the green space and trees back yes, but do remember that Admiral employe a lot of people and given the chance of several hundred jobs or a few trees I'll pick the jobs any day.

Rapport's current site is a bit of an eye-saw and I'm sure they are hanging onto it until its the last bit of land available in the city centre and then sell it.

Cardiff Council don't and haven't owned either the Admiral site or the Rapport site.

 

[krus_aragon]

The Admiral building is built on the site of an old NCP multi-story that was knocked down during the construction of SD2. The land was always planned to be built on.

There is an annual film festival held in the nearby Ciniworld cinema, the organisers of which asked Rapport to tidy the area up ahead of the festival. That is why the pleasant bit of grass and a few trees where planted. If anything Rapport did too much of a good job tarting it up.

Granted, but I recall walking past many times during the summer of ~2011(?), and seeing crowds of people sat about chatting and relaxing on the grass.

Rapport's current site is a bit of an eye-saw and I'm sure they are hanging onto it until its the last bit of land available in the city centre and then sell it.

Are you referring to Rapport's Ivor House, on Bridge Street? I was led to believe (by a relative who worked in the building) that Rapport had managed to get the building listed, hence why it's survived this long.

 

[Envoy]

The Admiral building is built on the site of an old NCP multi-story that was knocked down during the construction of SD2. The land was always planned to be built on.

Would I like the green space and trees back yes, but do remember that Admiral employe a lot of people and given the chance of several hundred jobs or a few trees I'll pick the jobs any day.

Rapport's current site is a bit of an eye-saw and I'm sure they are hanging onto it until its the last bit of land available in the city centre and then sell it.

Cardiff Council don't and haven't owned either the Admiral site or the Rapport site.

According to my information, the green space was created on the site of a former car park that was owned by the Council. Rapport offered their site (at a high price) to Admiral but according to my sources, the Council sold off (on the cheap) the site that Admiral now have their office block - ie. the former green space.

The city of Cardiff would have been so much better had this green space been retained. Nobody said that it was the intention to flog it off until it was made public that the land had been offered to developers Stobart & hence Admiral. Another ‘done deal’ behind closed doors with just all the legal stuff such as inviting objections, done afterwards.

No way would Admiral have left Cardiff as they had too many staff already in the city. They would surely have had plenty of money to purchase an alternative site.

 

[CardiffKid]

Granted, but I recall walking past many times during the summer of ~2011(?), and seeing crowds of people sat about chatting and relaxing on the grass.

And?

Are you referring to Rapport's Ivor House, on Bridge Street? I was led to believe (by a relative who worked in the building) that Rapport had managed to get the building listed, hence why it's survived this long.

If that sh*t heap of a building is listed there’s no hope!

According to my information, the green space was created on the site of a former car park that was owned by the Council. Rapport offered their site (at a high price) to Admiral but according to my sources, the Council sold off (on the cheap) the site that Admiral now have their office block - ie. the former green space.

The city of Cardiff would have been so much better had this green space been retained. Nobody said that it was the intention to flog it off until it was made public that the land had been offered to developers Stobart & hence Admiral. Another ‘done deal’ behind closed doors with just all the legal stuff such as inviting objections, done afterwards.

No way would Admiral have left Cardiff as they had too many staff already in the city. They would surely have had plenty of money to purchase an alternative site.

You and I obviously have different sources.

Question why would Cardiff Council own the land on which a NCP Car Park was built? It could happen but I think it’s highly unlikely.

A fully agree that area would be lovely with the grass still there.

Regarding Admiral, whilst some people don’t like them, I think they’re responsible employers by building their offices so close to railway stations. Admiral won’t build an office unless it’s within walking distance of a railway station. And please do remember that their office replaced an ugly multi story car park.

 

[krus_aragon]

And?

Sorry, I seemed to drop a sentence from my mental process when typing that out.

Seeing crowds gathering and enjoying the sun in the centre of the city was something I liked and approved of. It was an oasis of green right in the commercial centre, just outside the brand new shopping centre. I liked the "haven-like" feel, and miss it's loss, although I acknowledge that it was only ever temporary.

(Yes, there's still the Gorsedd Gardens near City Hall, but you need to start walking out of town to get there.)

 

[Envoy]

And?

Question why would Cardiff Council own the land on which a NCP Car Park was built? It could happen but I think it’s highly unlikely.

A fully agree that area would be lovely with the grass still there.

Regarding Admiral, whilst some people don’t like them, I think they’re responsible employers by building their offices so close to railway stations. Admiral won’t build an office unless it’s within walking distance of a railway station. And please do remember that their office replaced an ugly multi story car park.

It is probable that Cardiff Council entered into an agreement whereby NCP would manage the car park and the Council would get a rent. (Cardiff Council regretted selling off/ renting out their car parks as they lost control of parking rates. The car park in Pellet Street was offering all day parking for commuters at a very low rate - something the Council did not want as it only encouraged workers to commute into the central area by car. Another of their former car parks - in Westgate Street, charges fees that are so high that locals coming in from the west won’t use it. This results in extra congestion for the St.David’s 2 car parks which are cheaper for says of 2 to 3 hours).

I have nothing against Admiral apart from the fact that this wealthy company insisted on taking what was a green space in the heart of the city for their office block. (Henry Engelhard has now gone and left the city stuck with this great loss of a green space. However, it is the city planners and Rodney Berman’s Lib Dem/ Plaid coalition that must take the blame for selling off this site). Having said that, he created a highly regarded company in the city and I hear that employee levels of satisfaction are high. (Wonder what the average wage is)?

 

[CardiffKid]

I have nothing against Admiral apart from the fact that this wealthy company insisted on taking what was a green space in the heart of the city for their office block. (Henry Engelhard has now gone and left the city stuck with this great loss of a green space. However, it is the city planners and Rodney Berman’s Lib Dem/ Plaid coalition that must take the blame for selling off this site). Having said that, he created a highly regarded company in the city and I hear that employee levels of satisfaction are high. (Wonder what the average wage is)?

I would argue that Admiral built on the site of an old ugly multi story but we're getting sidetracked here.

I would rate Admiral as a good employer (and before the mods jump in, this is related to the Metro) as they only build offices near public transport hubs. They could have saved a fortune by building a call centre in some god awful and isolated place in the Valleys but they paid a premium for a city centre site near two railway stations. I commute out of Cardiff Queen Street every morning (just to be different) and there are loads of late teens/early twenties/thirties getting off the trains.

I wouldn't have thought that the average wage of staff in their Cardiff office is particularly high (although they do get a share bonus after I think three years) I would imagine/hope they also get a substantial discount naturally on car insurance, but it's still important to their employers that it's near public transport.

(Admiral also pride themselves on locating near entertainment venues for staff to enjoy after work and also provide free breakfasts - something you can see if you stand by the Traders Tavern.)

And no, I don't work for them!

 

[EbbwJunction1]

If that sh*t heap of a building is listed there’s no hope!

Don't worry, according to the Cardiff Council's web site, the Rapport building (or, to give it it's correct title, Ivor House) is not a listed building.

Although there are two Conservation Areas in the locality (Charles Street and Churchill Way), the building is not within either of those.

Oh, and yes, I agree with your thoughts about listing .... but sadly, stranger things have happened in the world of Listed Buildings!!

 

[anthony263]

Have heard from the locals in the Beddau area including from somebody who is a local counciler that they have heard the line to Beddau is to be re opened with some of the costs being met by developers who are gonna be building new housing developments around the beddau area including the old coke works.

However it seems like they are opting for the cheaper option of reopening the branch to Pontyclun.

Good idea however it is likely to put further pressure on the south wales mainline between Pontyclun & Cardiff Central

 

[Envoy]

Have heard from the locals in the Beddau area including from somebody who is a local counciler that they have heard the line to Beddau is to be re opened with some of the costs being met by developers who are gonna be building new housing developments around the beddau area including the old coke works.

However it seems like they are opting for the cheaper option of reopening the branch to Pontyclun.

Good idea however it is likely to put further pressure on the south wales mainline between Pontyclun & Cardiff Central

No, it won’t put pressure on the mainline if the service terminates at Pontyclun. Another problem could be the fact that a level crossing would be on a main road? Far better just to use local buses to get people to Pontyclun station and sort out the parking shambles at this location. (Cars are parked all over the local streets because derelict railway land has not been turned into a car park). The station could also do with signage from the local road network.

Goodness knows why Cardiff Council & the Welsh Government think that a P&R at J33 is a good idea? Who is going to get on a bus that will take at least 30 minutes to reach central Cardiff via Ely & Canton? Surely, the people from Llantrisant & environs will go to Pontyclun station where they can catch trains on the mainline travelling at up to 90mph that will get them into Cardiff in 15 minutes - as they do now? The problem now is the trains are not at regular 30 minute intervals and they are overloaded. The sooner a regular electric service is operating from Maesteg and/or Swansea, the better. This could possibly go to Ebbw Vale.

Perhaps Cardiff Council / WG want the P&R at J33 to show that is ‘sustainable’ to dig up the countryside and have a business park at this location along with the housing? (The abandoned LG site west of Newport could be a business park and the former Llanhari open cast site - but the WG don’t seem to go in for regional planning). J33 is likely to be jammed up even more = an own goal for the WG owned airport down at Rhoose as delay here damage connectivity.

 

[anthony263]

One idea was to put a P&R station at Miskin/Jct 34 with the station being on the miskin loops and service by a 30 minutely service from Beddau and a 30 minutely service from Maesteg timed to give a 15 minutely interval between Pontyclun and Cardiff.

Such a option might not be such a bad idea especially as a stopper service in the loops could then be overtaken while its stopped. However one issue does seem to be trying to path freight trains in between the fast/slow passenger services

 

[Envoy]

One idea was to put a P&R station at Miskin/Jct 34 with the station being on the miskin loops and service by a 30 minutely service from Beddau and a 30 minutely service from Maesteg timed to give a 15 minutely interval between Pontyclun and Cardiff.

Such a option might not be such a bad idea especially as a stopper service in the loops could then be overtaken while its stopped. However one issue does seem to be trying to path freight trains in between the fast/slow passenger services

Yes, I had also thought that a station at Miskin could be a good idea. They could use the Renishaw car park as that is right alongside the tracks. Renishaw would have to have a new car park on the east side of their factory. A direct road link could be built from the next bridge east of the Miskin Interchange to facilitate the passage of traffic from the Cregiau area & A4119. Thus, it would negate the need to build a P&R at J33 and the new road link could act as a by-pass for Groes Faen.

Downsides could be:- people driving all the way from west Wales to leave cars at Miskin for the last short run into Cardiff. (It would obviously better for them to travel from their nearest railhead). Another minus factor is putting in another stop on the mainline when Beddau etc. are already relatively near to Pontyclun. (Pontyclun has no direct access to the M4).

This all brings me back to the fact that 3 counties meet near this point - Cardiff, Vale of Glam & Rhondda Cynon Taff and they were all requested to draw up Local Development Plans by the Welsh Government. This was a big mistake as a regional plan should have been drawn up that would have made the best use of the land that is available.

 

[oglord]

This all brings me back to the fact that 3 counties meet near this point - Cardiff, Vale of Glam & Rhondda Cynon Taff

Three council areas, not counties!

 

[anthony263]

It seem s like they are in favour of light rail for the Valley Lines north of Queen Street however I think it would be a mistake to terminate all services at Cardiff Central.

If they want light rail then use tram-trains which are dual voltage that way they can continue running on heavy rail lines to Penarth and Barry Island.

However I do agree the Maesteg & Ebbw Vale line should remain as heavy rail and should have a much improve d service that what they currently get

 

[HowardGWR]

If you will forgive an outsider's view, it seems to me that the problem is that Cardiff has two stations (and probably needs them because Queen St is handier for many visitors and commuters from the valleys for their end-destinations). If it had but one station, then whether the services ended up at or went through that station, it would make for a simple interchange from one service to another at that one station.

As that is not the case, it seems sensible to have a mix of train and tram / train, all of which should at least pass through (or past the front door of) Central, to enable easy interchange.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you will forgive an outsider's view, it seems to me that the problem is that Cardiff has two stations (and probably needs them because Queen St is handier for many visitors and commuters from the valleys for their end-destinations). If it had but one station, then whether the services ended up at or went through that station, it would make for a simple interchange from one service to another at that one station.

As that is not the case, it seems sensible to have a mix of train and tram / train, all of which should at least pass through (or past the front door of) Central, to enable easy interchange.

Penarth and Barry services carry sizeable loadings through to Queen St and vice versa for Valleys services to Central.

 

[gareth950]

Penarth and Barry services carry sizeable loadings through to Queen St and vice versa for Valleys services to Central.

As well as from Barry & the Vale onwards past Queen St to Cathays. Indeed, one of the big advantages of the current setup of the Vale and Valley lines network is the ability to make cross city journeys from Barry and the Vale through Cardiff and beyond without having to change trains and wait for connections. When there is no disruption journeys really are seamless if travelling from the Pontypridd direction onwards towards Barry and vice versa in the opposite direction.

To take away this big advantage would be a mistake.

 

[Hwnt52]

I think that some of the politicians and others in Cardiff who think that having nice shiny new trams crawling around the city is a good idea should ask the people who live in Merthyr, Aberdare, Rhymney and Rhondda what they need. They will tell you that the most important thing by far is to be able to get into the city quickly and reliably for work and onward travel from Cardiff Central. Tens of thousands of people travel into Cardiff every day for work - the city is a huge economic magnet for the valleys. Converting an excellent rail system into tramlines and breaking it in half at Queen Street is insane, but then for many in Cardiff civilisation ends at Radyr and all points north are bandit country.

 

[Envoy]

Hwnt52 & Gareth950, I could not agree more - absolutely bonkers to have trams N of Cardiff and normal trains down to the coast. What is more - where would all the through passengers switch from one system to another? Can you imagine a busy sunny day in summer when many people from the valleys wish to get to Barry Island and they all have to change somewhere in Cardiff?

 

[Llanigraham]

At long last people are talking some sense. (Hwnt, Gareth950, Envoy).
Too many people on here seem fixated on tram trains without knowing the area.

(An Ex-Cardiffian)

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I was at Cardiff Central a couple of days ago on a steam special and was surprised how busy it was, I think it has 9 platforms. There was a real combination of rolling stock too, from what looked old and new pacers, some coupled together, to very modern looking units.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think that some of the politicians and others in Cardiff who think that having nice shiny new trams crawling around the city is a good idea should ask the people who live in Merthyr, Aberdare, Rhymney and Rhondda what they need. They will tell you that the most important thing by far is to be able to get into the city quickly and reliably for work and onward travel from Cardiff Central. Tens of thousands of people travel into Cardiff every day for work - the city is a huge economic magnet for the valleys. Converting an excellent rail system into tramlines and breaking it in half at Queen Street is insane, but then for many in Cardiff civilisation ends at Radyr and all points north are bandit country.

I can remember when i worked for Welsh Government being told of an old Welsh Office civil servant who boasted at his retirement party that he'd never been north of the M4.

The over riding work related priority of many of my ex colleagues working in central Cardiff was to secure a car parking space which meant being there for just after 0700 in the morning. They then wanted to have meetings around 0900 and expected folk from Mid, West and North Wales to get there for that time....

 

[Gareth Marston]

At long last people are talking some sense. (Hwnt, Gareth950, Envoy).
Too many people on here seem fixated on tram trains without knowing the area.

(An Ex-Cardiffian)

The scary thing is theirs people who live there that don't know the area!