Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

The West Coast Power Supply Upgrade item on page 69 contains some new text:
"WCPSU is a critical enabler for the Preston – Manchester (Phase 4) EIS in December 2017 following changes to the NWEP Phase 5 programme."
Its third commissioning area, Springs Branch to Euxton, has slipped from March 2017 to December 2017, and its fourth commissioning area, Weaver to Whitmore, has disappeared.

This is one of those almost invisible major projects that somehow has the ability to cripple everything else.
The WCPSU seems to have been going on for years, and yet it is incomplete and now apparently "critical".
I've never been sure how critical though, as electric traffic levels are still fairly modest with the drop-off in freight (the upgrade from Cumbria northwards was cancelled some time ago) and the use of Voyagers/185s on the WCML.
There are certainly stretches where the mast extensions and insulators are up, but have no ATF cable attached.

 

[Class 170101]

Have I read the document correctly that Guide Bridge to Stalybridge is now penciled in for 2022 completion? (NB Table on Page 11)

 

[Starmill]

That's certainly what it says.

 

[snowball]

I think Guide Bridge to Stalybridge has been 2022 ever since that date was chosen (in 2015) as the new target date for electrifying Stalybridge-Leeds-York/Selby.

Going back further, if I remember correctly, GB-Staly was at one time listed as simultaneous with Victoria to Stalybridge (both were then supposedly 2016). Then they apparently looked at it again and decided that there was no purpose in completing it earlier than the rest of the TP route (which at the time was supposedly 2018). So when the rest of TP slipped to 2022, GB-Staly also slipped to 2022.

Somewhat bizarrely, it nevertheless continues to be counted as part of phase 5.

 

[snowball]

This is one of those almost invisible major projects that somehow has the ability to cripple everything else.
The WCPSU seems to have been going on for years, and yet it is incomplete and now apparently "critical".
I've never been sure how critical though, as electric traffic levels are still fairly modest with the drop-off in freight (the upgrade from Cumbria northwards was cancelled some time ago) and the use of Voyagers/185s on the WCML.
There are certainly stretches where the mast extensions and insulators are up, but have no ATF cable attached.

I think the "critical" bit means roughly "we'd better do what we can to strengthen the juice between Wigan and Preston now that it might be called on to feed Manchester-Euxton in the absence of Stalybridge".

 

[Starmill]

I think the "critical" bit means roughly "we'd better do what we can to strengthen the juice between Wigan and Preston now that it might be called on to feed Manchester-Euxton in the absence of Stalybridge".

That was my thinking with that too. Without the Stalybridge feeder that is one large area that could be affected by a single outage. And presumably it would mean little or no spare capacity in the power supply under normal peak service conditions?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Went to Blackpool on the train yesterday. The fast lines at Kirkham are now out of use (sleepers across each track at each end). Also the Burn Naze/Fleetwood line has been disconnected at Poulton-le-Fylde. Signalling between Salwick and Blackpool North is to be transferred to Preston Power Box during the November-April blockade (it will be transferred later to Manchester ROC when Preston PSB closes).

 

[edwin_m]

I've never been sure how critical though, as electric traffic levels are still fairly modest with the drop-off in freight (the upgrade from Cumbria northwards was cancelled some time ago) and the use of Voyagers/185s on the WCML.
There are certainly stretches where the mast extensions and insulators are up, but have no ATF cable attached.

Most of the freight on the WCML is intermodal, which is still growing. Coal has been the big loser but that's generally diesel-hauled anyway. So I think freight will be using more power not less. Not many 185s on the WCML either, and I guess the new CAF units (being a bit longer) will use a bit more power than the 350s.

 

[QueensCurve]

Why not just leave the posts per page on the default setting? In my experience, software is generally least buggy when used in its default configuration, because that gets the most testing. I suspect most forum users (myself included) have never even looked at that "Edit Options" page.

Are you remembering to tick the "Remember Me" box when you log back in? I get logged out at random if that is not ticked.

That means more pages to go thro'.

It would be nice is the "remember me" would work. It did for a while and now it doesn't. :cry:

 

[snowball]

Most of the freight on the WCML is intermodal, which is still growing. Coal has been the big loser but that's generally diesel-hauled anyway. So I think freight will be using more power not less.

However the page on the WCPSU now says

Provision for growth in electric freight is no longer part of the scope. This reduction in scope has been agreed with the Department for Transport.

 

[CAF397]

Signalling between Salwick and Blackpool North is to be transferred to Preston Power Box during the November-April blockade (it will be transferred later to Manchester ROC when Preston PSB closes).

Is that a recent change of direction? The signalling has always been destined for the ROC in Manchester?

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...west-electrification/preston-blackpool-north/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think I would contend that there is less electric usage on the WCML north of Weaver Jn than there was in, say 1990, or whenever it was XC stopped using electric locos north of Birmingham/Preston.
Electric freight is down, there are only 3 mail/sleeper trains a day, and daytime passenger electrics are still only 3tph north of Preston, and sometimes only 1tph Weaver Jn-Golborne Jn.
Chat Moss and St Helens C carry only 3tph low-power 319/350s (combining west of Huyton).
Manchester-Blackpool will only add about 3tph similar EMUs.
So I would be surprised if the power supplies were "critical" until electric usage is significantly higher - say when TPE goes fully electric west of Manchester, and additional services, including significant freight, are operating on the WCML.

 

[Geeves]

Is that a recent change of direction? The signalling has always been destined for the ROC in Manchester?

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...west-electrification/preston-blackpool-north/

I think Warrington and Preston are in the "difficult pile" but I believe that the plan certainly a few years ago was that once everything was under the powerbox at Preston it was somewhat easier to transfer to Manchester than having another ROC Island like Oxford Rd and Huyton. I believe Preston and Warrington are being left till last anyway. Could have changed in the mean time though.

 

[notlob.divad]

I think I would contend that there is less electric usage on the WCML north of Weaver Jn than there was in, say 1990, or whenever it was XC stopped using electric locos north of Birmingham/Preston.
Electric freight is down, there are only 3 mail/sleeper trains a day, and daytime passenger electrics are still only 3tph north of Preston, and sometimes only 1tph Weaver Jn-Golborne Jn.
Chat Moss and St Helens C carry only 3tph low-power 319/350s (combining west of Huyton).
Manchester-Blackpool will only add about 3tph similar EMUs.
So I would be surprised if the power supplies were "critical" until electric usage is significantly higher - say when TPE goes fully electric west of Manchester, and additional services, including significant freight, are operating on the WCML.

And Chat Moss will lose one electric service until the Bi-mode TPE units arrive. Sorry if this has been covered, and my understanding fails, but are the new Transformers at Edge Hill, Huyton Quarry, Newton-Le-Wiillows and Ordsell Lane, not sufficent to provide resilience for what is currently installed. Or are we talking about the national grid feeders to these places.

I was interested in why they decided not to take a feed, from the National Grid substation adjacent to Chat Moss at Lea Green (original station location).

 

[Elecman]

In the absence of Stalybridge, the NG supply points at Catterall and Willow Park will have to provide the power for Manchester - Preston and Preston - Blackpool

 

[edwin_m]

And Chat Moss will lose one electric service until the Bi-mode TPE units arrive. Sorry if this has been covered, and my understanding fails, but are the new Transformers at Edge Hill, Huyton Quarry, Newton-Le-Wiillows and Ordsell Lane, not sufficent to provide resilience for what is currently installed. Or are we talking about the national grid feeders to these places.

I was interested in why they decided not to take a feed, from the National Grid substation adjacent to Chat Moss at Lea Green (original station location).

I think of the ones you mention only Newton-le-Willows is an actual feed from the Grid, the others being autotransformer stations.

I guess Lea Green would be a bit too close to Newton-le-Willows to consider putting another feeder there.

The Grid feeds are one of the longest lead items on an electrification scheme as National Grid needs about five years notice for a connection of that sort of size. The order of completion of the phases was no doubt very different when the completion dates for the feeders were signed up to.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the absence of Stalybridge, the NG supply points at Catterall and Willow Park will have to provide the power for Manchester - Preston and Preston - Blackpool

Where is the feeder point for Manchester South?
Does that have any spare capacity to feed further north?
There aren't going to be any heavy electric freight trains over the Pennines for years, and there will be nothing remotely similar to London's peak 12-car EMU services in the area., or the WCML VHF timetable south of Rugby.
A pair of Pendolinos passing occasionally is the most demand there will be.

 

[snowball]

I believe that

a) there are no feeder stations between Manchester and Crewe via Stockport or Styal

b) there's one at Weaver Junction

c) there's one at Barlaston between Stoke and Stone, and no others on that route between Manchester and Colwich.

I'm not sure where the first one is, going south from Crewe.

If this is right it raises the question of how the first lines to be wired, back in about 1960, were fed.

I hope others more knowledgeable will correct me.

 

[Elecman]

I believe that

a) there are no feeder stations between Manchester and Crewe via Stockport or Styal

b) there's one at Weaver Junction

c) there's one at Barlaston between Stoke and Stone, and no others on that route between Manchester and Colwich.

I'm not sure where the first one is, going south from Crewe.

If this is right it raises the question of how the first lines to be wired, back in about 1960, were fed.

I hope others more knowledgeable will correct me.

There is a feeder station at Edgeley ( near Stockport) a feeder at Crewe itself and then at Doxey Junction

 

[Elecman]

Where is the feeder point for Manchester South?
Does that have any spare capacity to feed further north?
There aren't going to be any heavy electric freight trains over the Pennines for years, and there will be nothing remotely similar to London's peak 12-car EMU services in the area., or the WCML VHF timetable south of Rugby.
A pair of Pendolinos passing occasionally is the most demand there will be.

South Manchesrer Feeder is at Edgeley.

 

[snowball]

Thanks Elecman!

 

[Class 170101]

Could they boost the power of existing feeders?

I think I read something about a feeder of 132KV being decommissioned somewhere within that document but being replaced with a 400kv feeder on an adjacent site instead. Could the same not be done for the North West Electrification scheme to provide greater security of supply?

 

[Greybeard33]

Could they boost the power of existing feeders?

I think I read something about a feeder of 132KV being decommissioned somewhere within that document but being replaced with a 400kv feeder on an adjacent site instead. Could the same not be done for the North West Electrification scheme to provide greater security of supply?

Each feeder is a large single phase load on the 400kV Supergrid and so injects a negative phase sequence component back into the 3-phase supply. I imagine there is a limit to the load that National Grid can tolerate on any one feeder, before it causes an unacceptable degradation in grid power quality.

 

[snowball]

Weren't a lot of the original early 1960s feeds taken from the 132kV network, with later ones (e.g. WCML north of Weaver) from the 275kV or 400kV supergrid?

Do cables at voltages like 275kV and 400kV run into urban areas like the locations of the old Crewe, Stockport and Stafford feeders or does it get transformed down at the edge of the urban area?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Weren't a lot of the original early 1960s feeds taken from the 132kV network, with later ones (e.g. WCML north of Weaver) from the 275kV or 400kV supergrid?

Do cables at voltages like 275kV and 400kV run into urban areas like the locations of the old Crewe, Stockport and Stafford feeders or does it get transformed down at the edge of the urban area?

Crewe is fed at 132, Weaver at 400, Willow Park at 132, Heyrod at 275.

 

[reg]

Two masts have gone up at Bolton,adjacent to Burnden sidings worksite.Picture to follow.

 

[LDECRexile]

Two masts have gone up at Bolton,adjacent to Burnden sidings worksite.Picture to follow.

And here it is, with an enlargement of the shot's centre.

First, in Reg's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157671732263863

and in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Reg.

PS: I have changed the photos' captions. I originally misinterpreted the signalling portal as OHLE. My error.

Dave

 

[Elecman]

Crewe is fed at 132, Weaver at 400, Willow Park at 132, Heyrod at 275.

Beaten to the answer!! I think Catterall is 132kv

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Beaten to the answer!! I think Catterall is 132kv

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.88647,-2.74768,18z/data=!3m1!1e3

Certainly looks like 132kV to me.

Though about 0.5 miles away there are 275kV pylons and lines.

 

[Aws87024]

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.88647,-2.74768,18z/data=!3m1!1e3

Certainly looks like 132kV to me.

Though about 0.5 miles away there are 275kV pylons and lines.

Definitely 132KV.