Told to move from unmarked reserved seat...

[1B85]

I traveled on a train into Manchester Piccadilly a while back.

I boarded at station A with a flexible standard class day ticket with no reservation. At the time of boarding, the train was not busy and I had the pick of the seats. So I sat in one.

A bit later, the train arrived at station B. This was now in the commuter rush and many people boarded the train, making it standing room only. A woman traveling with her partner approached me and the guy sitting next to me and said 'You're sitting in our seats...'. I checked the seat back. There were no reservation cards displayed. I informed them of this.

They insisted, showing the reservation coupons which showed they had indeed reserved the seats. The guy sitting next to me got up to make way. What other choice did I have? Any reasonable person would say that they are entitled to the seats they reserved. Indeed, I'd expect nothing less if the situation were reversed.

So I stood in the packed train carriage for the remainder of the journey to Piccadilly. I wrote to the train operator who said 'Sorry, the train was late arriving, so we didn't put the reservation cards in. In any case, your ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat reservation, so no compensation'

I think that I am entitled to compensation - after all, it's their actions that resulted in me being without a seat - if they had had their reservation cards in place I could have chosen a seat that was free for my entire journey.

Opinions on this?

 

[crehld]

You are not entitled to compensation. I'm afraid the train company is right here, on paper at least. When you purchased the ticket you agreed to the National Rail Conditions of Travel which state:

3.3 Unless you have made a reservation please note that your Ticket does not automatically entitle you to a seat, and at busy times you may have to stand.

Yes the company could have made things easier if they put the seat reservation tickets out (though note on some trains reservations are displayed electronically above the seats), but if having a seat is important to you, and it is possible on the train you wish to travel on, you could always get a reservation for yourself. They're normally available up to a couple of hours before departure, and this would guarantee you a seat for the entity of your journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The usual rule (albeit unwritten) is that if reservations are not placed they do not apply. So I'd have said sorry, no, unless they looked like they needed a seat more than me in which case they would be offered the seat whether they had a reservation or not.

I've diffused seat arguments before by pointing out that this is the usual approach, by the way. I do wish in situations where reservations are not placed guards would announce that it is the case clearly and repeatedly.

The easiest solution would be to place stickers on the train walls making it clear that this is the rule (or that the rule is that they apply whether marked or not, it barely matters), in the manner of the way the French have the statement that if there's an argument over windows being open or not they default to closed.

 

[Greenback]

I would not have moved. In fact, I have refused to do so in identical circumstances in the past.

You aren't entitled to anything as you decided to copoerate with the request to vacate the seat.

 

[gray1404]

As the seat you sat in was not reserved, you did not need to move. At the same time you are not entitled to compensation because you did not have a reservation.

 

[crehld]

The usual rule (albeit unwritten) is that if reservations are not placed they do not apply.

"Usual rule" (albeit unwritten) in so far as I observe it in place about half of the time. The other half of the time the "usual rule" (albeit unwritten) seems to be that reservations stand, and if you are asked to vacate your seat by a fellow passenger who holds a reservation for that seat you are required to do so. Which usual rule is in operation seems to depend very much on who the guard/train manager is. On Virgin West Coast, for example, when the reservation system goes down / doesn't load they will apply either usual rule. Things tend to work out best when the train manager makes an announcement saying the reservation system is down, so everyone with a reserved seat sit where you are supposed to and anyone without a reservation should find a seat in the designated unreserved carriages. So yes, clear communication which helps people understand what their position is can help resolve these issues a lot of the time.

I would not have moved. In fact, I have refused to do so in identical circumstances in the past.

Interestingly I would have moved as, without any other notification from on board staff, the passenger asking me to move seemingly has a more legitimate claim to the seat (but then perhaps that's only because if I held the reservation I would expect either the occupant to vacate the seat, or a member of on board staff to find me a suitable alternative).

 

[furlong]

The requirement not to occupy a reserved seat comes from a byelaw - the same one often used against people found in first class without first class tickets even if they immediately agree to move:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

Without a notice, the reservation is unenforceable.

(B.R. used to advertise that reservations lapsed if they weren't claimed something like 10 minutes after leaving the named station so that people couldn't be prosecuted for occupying reserved seats where the reservation holder didn't turn up and the seats wouldn't have to be left empty unless the guard gave permission.)

 

[bb21]

No reservation labels placed means no reservation enforceable.

No need to move at all. Tough luck to that couple. It's a fair game.

I certainly would not have if I were travelling on full fare tickets.

The only exception would be when it is someone vulnerable.

 

[Paule23]

I'd would have moved, and as a passenger holding a reservation I would expect anyone in my seat to move. Look at it from the reservation passenger perspective, it is hardly their fault if the TOC has not put out reservations. I know it seems harsh on someone who occupied a seemingly unreserved seat, but as posted above the passenger with the reservation has more right to the seat in my view so you should move.

No entitlement to compensation either in my book.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The person who holds the reservation not honoured is entitled to compensation. Compensation being the full amount paid for the reservation. A ticket, as we all know, allows travel from A to B but with no promise of a seat.

That, I assume, is why reservations are now free rather than the old nominal amount (was it £1?, can't remember).

Try explaining that one to a passenger!

I did once and they weren't at all receptive to the details of the point being made. I was travelling from North Wales on a Euston service, from the junction I think, and there were no reservations loaded, so everyone sat where they did, fine at the junction but as we travelled eastwards (towards Chester) the train got busier and busier. At Chester it was rammed and no way was I moving at that point!

 

[IanXC]

Transpennine Express do seem to have a confused position on this, which is not being helped by the declining rate at which Reservations are displayed. Try finding a service which leaves its origin after 2100 with Reservations displayed... And give up if it's a short working not through Huddersfield!

 

[Starmill]

The person who holds the reservation not honoured is entitled to compensation. Compensation being the full amount paid for the reservation. A ticket, as we all know, allows travel from A to B but with no promise of a seat.

That, I assume, is why reservations are now free rather than the old nominal amount (was it £1?, can't remember).

Train companies offer compensation schemes for reserved seating which turns out not to be available.

e.g.

Seat reservations
If your reserved seat is unavailable, our on board staff will help you
find another seat. If you have reserved a seat and had to stand for
all or part of your journey, we will offer you compensation. Please
ask the Train Manager or Senior Conductor to endorse your ticket
and send it, along with your reservation, to our Customer Service
Centre.

What is the Seat Guarantee scheme?
Our seats are famously comfy. So it’s only natural to be cheesed off if you find none are available when you’ve gone to the trouble of booking one.

If that happens, and our staff can't track you down an alternative seat, our Seat Guarantee scheme lets you claim a refund. Here’s how it works:

If you had a one way ticket, we’ll compensate you 100% of the value
If you had a return ticket, we’ll compensate you 50% of the value
If you had a First Class ticket and the only seat available is in Standard Class, we’ll compensate you the difference between the fare you paid and the Standard Class equivalent

Furthermore, if your reservation is not honored and you do not travel as a result, you are entitled to a full refund.

 

[Starmill]

Transpennine Express do seem to have a confused position on this, which is not being helped by the declining rate at which Reservations are displayed. Try finding a service which leaves its origin after 2100 with Reservations displayed... And give up if it's a short working not through Huddersfield!

The issue I often find with TransPennine is that they leave reservations for a service from hours ago out. This causes huge confusion with people not wanting to take seats because they don't understand the portion of the journey they are reserved for, because the label has a station on it that the train doesn't even go to.

It's very poor indeed to leave old reservation labels out when it would only take a cleaner a couple of minutes to remove them all and then just announce that reservations are not in force.

 

[furlong]

The person who holds the reservation not honoured is entitled to compensation. Compensation being the full amount paid for the reservation.

This varies by TOC - CrossCountry, for example, offers 5% in vouchers if you still don't have a seat after 20 minutes (and get your ticket endorsed).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The person who holds the reservation not honoured is entitled to compensation. Compensation being the full amount paid for the reservation. A ticket, as we all know, allows travel from A to B but with no promise of a seat.

That, I assume, is why reservations are now free rather than the old nominal amount (was it £1?, can't remember).

Actually, if they are unable to get *any* seat they are on most TOCs entitled to a partial fare refund as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Transpennine Express do seem to have a confused position on this, which is not being helped by the declining rate at which Reservations are displayed. Try finding a service which leaves its origin after 2100 with Reservations displayed... And give up if it's a short working not through Huddersfield!

That, if true, is *highly* sloppy and really not good enough.

 

[yorkie]

The usual rule (albeit unwritten) is that if reservations are not placed they do not apply.... .

100% Agreed. If the seat is not marked as reserved, it is by definition unreserved. Most trains are unreserved anyway so it's a case of people just need to find any available seat.

If they particularly need a seat for any reason and none are available, then they can politely mention their needs to someone occupying a 'Priority Seat'.

 

[Greybeard33]

This morning the 0729 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh TPE service started short at Manchester Piccadilly; consequently there were no reservation cards. The guard made PA announcements at each stop asking passengers to vacate their seats if requested by someone with a reservation for that seat. He also warned people without reservations that they might have to give up their seats if a reservation holder boarded at a later stop, and said that a high proportion of seats were reserved on this pre-Easter service (a 4-car 350).

In my carriage people moved with good grace when shown a reservation. Fortunately there were just about enough seats, presumably because of the passengers who had been left behind at the Airport.

 

[Starmill]

This is the critical reason why it's not good enough to say that invisible reservations should apply - those services generally (not just because it's Easter) have upwards of 90% of seats reserved in Standard. Sometimes every single seat apart from the ones by the catering area without numbers, which are non-reservable, are reserved.

 

[theironroad]

I traveled on a train into Manchester Piccadilly a while back.

I boarded at station A with a flexible standard class day ticket with no reservation. At the time of boarding, the train was not busy and I had the pick of the seats. So I sat in one.

A bit later, the train arrived at station B. This was now in the commuter rush and many people boarded the train, making it standing room only. A woman traveling with her partner approached me and the guy sitting next to me and said 'You're sitting in our seats...'. I checked the seat back. There were no reservation cards displayed. I informed them of this.

They insisted, showing the reservation coupons which showed they had indeed reserved the seats. The guy sitting next to me got up to make way. What other choice did I have? Any reasonable person would say that they are entitled to the seats they reserved. Indeed, I'd expect nothing less if the situation were reversed.

So I stood in the packed train carriage for the remainder of the journey to Piccadilly. I wrote to the train operator who said 'Sorry, the train was late arriving, so we didn't put the reservation cards in. In any case, your ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat reservation, so no compensation'

I think that I am entitled to compensation - after all, it's their actions that resulted in me being without a seat - if they had had their reservation cards in place I could have chosen a seat that was free for my entire journey.

Opinions on this?

You should be grateful you weren't travelling with United Airlines

While you may not be entitled to compensation, I think the fact you bothered to write in and they admitted they'd not bothered to put reservation cards out put you in a good position for a discretionary good will gesture. I also guess it would depend on whether the TM was proactive in making regular announcements that seats might be reserved and people without reservations may need to vacate seats.

South West trains got rid of all seat reservations a few years back, partly because of the amount of grief they caused with arguments between passengers and then arguments between passengers and guards. One of the best decisions they made, in my opinion.

 

[BML247]

We simply dont know what train the OP was on so we dont know if it was a train with electronic reservations which of course they wouldnt see if they looked at the seat back.

 

[yorkie]

This morning the 0729 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh TPE service started short at Manchester Piccadilly; consequently there were no reservation cards. The guard made PA announcements at each stop asking passengers to vacate their seats if requested by someone with a reservation for that seat. He also warned people without reservations that they might have to give up their seats if a reservation holder boarded at a later stop, and said that a high proportion of seats were reserved on this pre-Easter service (a 4-car 350)..

Unenforceable of course, but completely and utterly unacceptable.

Virgin Trains East Coast Guards make it clear that if there are no reservation cards, there are no reservations, and that customers can sit in any seat. Anyone with a particular issue (e.g. a group that booked to sit together) can seek advice from the Guard.

I strongly believe the idea that someone can be asked to move - without warning - at any point, and multiple times on a long journey, is ludicrous and TPE should provide appropriate guidance to their Guards to ensure this does not happen in future.

 

[gray1404]

I totally agree. TPE should not even be suggesting that customers should move if asked to do so. It basically causes conflict and it will be interesting to see how customer service respond.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I strongly believe the idea that someone can be asked to move - without warning - at any point, and multiple times on a long journey, is ludicrous and TPE should provide appropriate guidance to their Guards to ensure this does not happen in future.

Agreed, the more sensible approach is that if reservations are not placed then they do not apply. I think this should be displayed prominently in each coach so there can be no arguments.

 

[bb21]

Playing musical chairs on a busy service (which is when it is arguably most needed) is just asking for trouble.

So very little logic for enforcing invisible reservations imo.

 

[crehld]

Playing musical chairs on a busy service (which is when it is arguably most needed) is just asking for trouble.

So very little logic for enforcing invisible reservations imo.

The issue is that in the real world any policy / policies which may exist is applied wholly inconsistently - as I indicted above. The result is the average passenger doesn't know where they stand (figuratively speaking of course ) Neil has already highlighted the need for clear communication. It costs the railway nothing to implement that.

Yes playing musical chairs is silly. But at the same time I understand how frustrating it is to go to the effort of making a reservation knowing that a particular service is going to be busy, only to find that reservation has not been honoured and, despite going to the effort to ensure I have a seat, find I have to stand for my journey because someone else who couldn't be bothered to go to the same efforts got to the seat before I could.

There are a number of ways these frustrations can be alleviated. On board staff finding me a seat elsewhere, a free upgrade to first class, a free beverage from the on board shop/buffet have all worked to address my frustrations in the past. A meaningful compensation scheme such as Virgin East Coast's seat guarantee is most welcome.

Of course addressing the root-cause of the issue would be ideal. If reservations not getting put out (for whatever reason - e.g. late arrival so no time to prepare train for next journey, ran out of reservation slips, printer packed in, staff simply forgot) is the issue, then electronic reservation systems should have eliminated the problem. And yet I find such systems to be far more unreliable than their paper counterpart.

 

[Sleeper]

...find I have to stand for my journey because someone else who couldn't be bothered to go to the same efforts got to the seat before I could....

I'm sympathetic to most of Crehld's posting, but I think this part is unfair. Many of us choose to use walk-up fares rather than cheaper advances because we want flexibility, not because we can't be bothered to book ahead. When we join the train, what more can we do but respect the reservation signs that have been put out?

If - for whatever reason - the tickets have not been put out, or the electronic system is not working, then it is the railway and nobody else that has failed the passenger who reserved a seat. And the railway is in the best position to put things right, e.g. by upgrading to first class or refunding the fare. But the consequences should not be visited upon the walk-up fare passenger who occupied the seat in good faith in the first place, especially given that in the alternative s/he could be made to move several times - luggage 'n' all maybe - during the course of a single journey.

By extension, the Cross-Country arrangement that apparently permits other people to reserve seats passengers are already occupying seems to me pretty monstrous. (I have no personal experience of this, but it's what I understand from several posts on the forum.)

Obviously, I hope, additional considerations may apply where people with disabilities, or who are elderly, are involved, particularly where all seats are occupied and someone must stand.

 

[crehld]

I'm sympathetic to most of Crehld's posting, but I think this part is unfair. Many of us choose to use walk-up fares rather than cheaper advances because we want flexibility, not because we can't be bothered to book ahead. When we join the train, what more can we do but respect the reservation signs that have been put out?.

Part of this here is down TOCs ensuring ample space for unreserved passengers is provided. Virgin Trains have unreserved carriages, for example, where those without reservations can be assured of not inadvertently sitting in someone else's seat. These are clearly marked, and announcements are often made to tell boarding passengers that if they don't have a reservation they should find a seat there.

And even if you went for the flexibility option you can still get a reservation up to a couple of hours before departure (I've done it many times). And Virgin Trains and Cross Country will even do you one by Twitter if you tweet them a photo of your ticket and tell them what train you want to get. Reservations are not just for advance ticket holders! I've used them with Anytime Returns, rover tickets and season tickets. The only prerequisite is that you hold a valid ticket.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'd would have moved, and as a passenger holding a reservation I would expect anyone in my seat to move. Look at it from the reservation passenger perspective, it is hardly their fault if the TOC has not put out reservations. I know it seems harsh on someone who occupied a seemingly unreserved seat, but as posted above the passenger with the reservation has more right to the seat in my view so you should move.

No entitlement to compensation either in my book.

Agreed. People can obtain seat reservations from any staffed station. More promotion on this will ensue a fairer system.

However, where possible, I do think that for services where reservations have not been displayed for whatever reason, then they should state this on the platforms of the stations that service is calling at. Similar to when services are reported as being full and standing. A few weeks ago I was making my regular journey between Bristol and Cardiff. The train was packed coming from Bath, and a message was displayed at Temple Meads saying train reported full and standing. With that, the 158 pulled in and it was indeed rammed to the rafters, even after quite a lot alighted at Bristol. Subsequently I took an XC service to Bristol Parkway and caught a HST to Cardiff from there.

Going back to seat reservations, if that communication is available then I would attempt to travel on a different service instead, unless I was on an Advance ticket.

 

[Ianigsy]

I think the fairest approach was taken on a FGW HST I travelled on several years ago. No reservations due to a fault with the machine at Plymouth, so the guard announced to the effect "please try to sit somewhere near your reserved seat as there should be enough places for everybody". I've also had a reservation for a priority seat (which I don't need) on an advance ticket and (twice) reservations for seats which physically weren't there due to unit substitutions.

I don't travel TPE at the weekend without a reservation precisely because of being turfed out of a reserved seat without a card several years ago and two trips between Leeds and Manchester standing all the way. Exception made for this weekend- nobody else on Good Friday seemed to be expecting six cars on every train so there were a couple of stampedes at Piccadilly and Leeds.