Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[BRX]

I guess that with an emu solution, if the traction equipment on it fails, you can't just swap it for another set, like you can with a loco, without major disruption for all the passengers on board.

 

[CosherB]

Train length is an issue so that wouldn't be ideal[1]. Thai sleepers have a gennie on each coach, but it's a bit noisy like a DMU.

[1] Given that and many other factors (e.g. how it would make the shunts far easier), I'm actually slightly surprised an EMU solution (but fitted with traditional drawgear and buffers to allow diesel locomotive haulage in Scotland) wasn't selected.

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, LHCS offers the ultimate in formation flexibility. It also removes the need for driving trailers in fixed or semi-fixed rakes. You have no argument from me, however, on the merits of distributed traction.

 

[TimboM]

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, LHCS offers the ultimate in formation flexibility. It also removes the need for driving trailers in fixed or semi-fixed rakes. You have no argument from me, however, on the merits of distributed traction.

I think the LHCS flexibility is one of the key reasons for staying with that option. The service currently operates with 4x 8-carriage sets, but then one of those splits for Aberdeen and FW, with extra coaches added/removed at Edinburgh for the FW portion. The length of the FW and Aberdeen portions can very I believe depending on seasons. The sets also continually cycle to ensure they pass through the depot at Inverness regularly; so any given 8-carriage portion will need to be split up every 4th trip for the FW/Aberdeen portion. Having an EMU set-up with this flexibility would be more challenging.

I suspect new coaches + refurbed traction was a fair bit cheaper too (or at least before all the extra costs of sorting the 92s and 73s!)

Also the speed of bringing into service - with the age of the current stock and the desire to replace it ASAP, I think brand new EMUs would take longer to design, test, commission etc. than coaching stock.

Also, if you're going to have to add a diesel on for North of Edinburgh it gets to the point where you might as well have LHCS; or otherwise make a bi-mode E/DMU, but then that'd be a whole different ball game of development/cost.

There's potentially a passenger comfort consideration, too, as a (D/)EMU would presumably have traction motors and the like in the majority of the coaches, which would likely increase noise levels, plus fitting all the traction equipment / dips in the roof for pantographs etc. into the coaches would impinge on space to fit in the bigger rooms/en suites and whatever else they have planned.

Is anyone aware of sleeper services elsewhere in Europe/the world that use EMU/DMU stock?

 

[43096]

I think the LHCS flexibility is one of the key reasons for staying with that option. The service currently operates with 4x 8-carriage sets, but then one of those splits for Aberdeen and FW, with extra coaches added/removed at Edinburgh for the FW portion. The length of the FW and Aberdeen portions can very I believe depending on seasons. The sets also continually cycle to ensure they pass through the depot at Inverness regularly; so any given 8-carriage portion will need to be split up every 4th trip for the FW/Aberdeen portion. Having an EMU set-up with this flexibility would be more challenging.



I suspect new coaches + refurbed traction was a fair bit cheaper too (or at least before all the extra costs of sorting the 92s and 73s!)

Sleeper stock is now "maintained" by Alstom at Polmadie - it was Inverness as you say under the old regime - so sets go home more frequently. Alstom also see them every other night at Wembley.

As for the costs of the 73 and 92 issue that doesn't affect Caledonian Sleeper as such as they will pay a fixed price to GBRf. In the case of the 73s, the extra costs will be being borne ultimately by MTU as they supplied the power unit. For the 92s I imagine there has been a debate between GBRf and NR over the condition of the infrastructure.

 

[TimboM]

Sleeper stock is now "maintained" by Alstom at Polmadie - it was Inverness as you say under the old regime - so sets go home more frequently. Alstom also see them every other night at Wembley.

As for the costs of the 73 and 92 issue that doesn't affect Caledonian Sleeper as such as they will pay a fixed price to GBRf. In the case of the 73s, the extra costs will be being borne ultimately by MTU as they supplied the power unit. For the 92s I imagine there has been a debate between GBRf and NR over the condition of the infrastructure.

Thanks for info re Polmadie (and Wembley).

I fully agree - the cost of the 92/73 issues will have been pushed as far down the chain to whoever could be 'blamed' the most! Serco, and probably to a large extent GBRf, won't have actually had to suffer the direct costs (assuming they had made sure they had decent contracts in place) - as you say likely picked up by various suppliers (or supplier's suppliers) e.g. NR, Brush(?), MTU etc. or whoever they could show hadn't delivered what they were contracted to do. It wouldn't stop there either - no doubt MTU would pin some of the costs on whichever specific supplier provided them the component of the alternator that caused the 73 problems, and so on and so on...

That said, Serco/GBRf still have to suffer the reputation issues and possible impact on chances of winning future contracts.

Also, somewhere along the line it has cost extra real pounds for the chosen traction options to be sorted out, even if the Serco numbers still stack up.

 

[CosherB]

That said, Serco/GBRf still have to suffer the reputation issues and possible impact on chances of winning future contracts.

I'm sure GBRf will be fine - they have a good reputation in the industry and the vast majority of their work is handled by 66s.

As for Serco .... they're just another major logistics / outsourcing company along with G4S, Capita and their like.

 

[TimboM]

I'm sure GBRf will be fine - they have a good reputation in the industry and the vast majority of their work is handled by 66s.

As for Serco .... they're just another major logistics / outsourcing company along with G4S, Capita and their like.

Agreed, I don't think it's done GBRf any harm at all - and indeed they've shown great tenacity and ingenuity in getting the sleepers where they need to be largely on time with a variety of traction options, all the while working hard to get Plan A sorted.

So far I think they've used 47s, 66s, 67s, 73s, 86s, an 87, 90s and 92s; plus borrowed locos from pretty much every other major freight operating company other than DRS. Arguably they also used a 70 one night

 

[Far north 37]

Agreed, I don't think it's done GBRf any harm at all - and indeed they've shown great tenacity and ingenuity in getting the sleepers where they need to be largely on time with a variety of traction options, all the while working hard to get Plan A sorted.

So far I think they've used 47s, 66s, 67s, 73s, 86s, an 87, 90s and 92s; plus borrowed locos from pretty much every other major freight operating company other than DRS. Arguably they also used a 70 one night

yes to be honest they have done there best to keep things running and im sure any loco hauled service with as many diagrams over such a long distance daily would be subject to traction problems as well especially given the age of the stock and even traction involved to an extent

 

[Scotrail84]

yes to be honest they have done there best to keep things running and im sure any loco hauled service with as many diagrams over such a long distance daily would be subject to traction problems as well especially given the age of the stock and even traction involved to an extent

Its almost always loco failure that cause the delays either CS locos or other operators. Very rarely does a coach fault delay or cancel services.

 

[GW43125]

Layout as follows. Starting from Euston .

Huge ask I know, but would someone be able to possibly provide the info for the formation of the Highland too?

Thanks.

 

[jopsuk]

The service currently operates with 4x 8-carriage sets,

bit more than that- it is 4x8 carriage sets in each direction, plus one complete one at any time in for service

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Interesting to know what loadings are like - not great by some observers.

 

[TimboM]

bit more than that- it is 4x8 carriage sets in each direction, plus one complete one at any time in for service

Yes, of course...! Which would make an EMU option even more challenging as you've got 2 of the 8 sets each night getting split up (North and Southbound Aberdeen and Fort Bill) - and which ones these are changing each night, not to mention whichever one comes out of the cycle for servicing.

 

[Kite159]

Interesting to know what loadings are like - not great by some observers.

Probably better on some nights than others.

I suspect the loadings last Thursday night would have been higher due to the bank holiday weekend getaway.

----

I've got my first experience of a night in the seats this coming Friday night on route to Edinburgh, I suspect I will be like a zombie on Saturday

 

[43096]

Yes, of course...! Which would make an EMU option even more challenging as you've got 2 of the 8 sets each night getting split up (North and Southbound Aberdeen and Fort Bill) - and which ones these are changing each night, not to mention whichever one comes out of the cycle for servicing.

And of course the load on the Aberdeen and Fort William legs varies. It can be 4 sleepers to Aberdeen, 2 to Fort Bill, but last night (for example) it was 3 sleepers to each. Lounge and seats cars go through to Aberdeen, with Fort William seats/lounge added at Edinburgh.

Try designing an EMU for all those permutations! Not going to work, is it?!

 

[GW43125]

Interesting to note the new carriages use Dellner couplers. Whatever happened to simplicity? If something goes bang they're more than a little stuffed due to not having compatible couplers.

 

[sng7]

Interesting to note the new carriages use Dellner couplers. Whatever happened to simplicity? If something goes bang they're more than a little stuffed due to not having compatible couplers.

The autocoupling ability should stop staff having to get between the coaches reducing the risk of staff injuries would be my assumption for the reasoning.

 

[GW43125]

The autocoupling ability should stop staff having to get between the coaches reducing the risk of staff injuries would be my assumption for the reasoning.

Wont they still have to connect the jumpers and bagpipes though? Or have they gone over to the train wire system (I hope not)...?

 

[theironroad]

The autocoupling ability should stop staff having to get between the coaches reducing the risk of staff injuries would be my assumption for the reasoning.

....And guess what autocoupling also means.....No shunters needed to assist so staffing levels can be reduced.

One reason I'm still perplexed by first group intending to bring back 442s on the Waterloo to Portsmouth line, unless they intend running fixed 10 car formations, station staff will have to be trained to perform attaching/detaching duties.

 

[GW43125]

....And guess what autocoupling also means.....No shunters needed to assist so staffing levels can be reduced.

One reason I'm still perplexed by first group intending to bring back 442s on the Waterloo to Portsmouth line, unless they intend running fixed 10 car formations, station staff will have to be trained to perform attaching/detaching duties.

Or the drivers do it?

 

[47271]

Interesting to know what loadings are like - not great by some observers.

Not sure when your observations were made, but it pans out pretty much like daytime trains. Ignore anyone who tries to tell you that they're running dead, they're far from it.

Busiest northbound Wed-Fri nights, busiest southbound Sun and Mon nights.

Busier in the holiday seasons than in the winter, with peak loadings around Easter and other Bank Holidays. For example, every bed was taken on the northbound Highlander last Wednesday ahead of Easter, and it'll be like that now on the Inverness and Fort William on Thursdays and Fridays through until the end of the summer. Same on Sundays and Mondays southbound.

Inverness and Fort William sections are the quickest to fill on the Highlander, Edinburgh on the Lowlander, and Aberdeen and Glasgow are the routes where you're most likely to get a berth at very short notice.

I'm told on good authority (very regular users, not Serco) that the sleepers are generally busier now than they were under First, I don't know about the seated sections.

 

[XC90]

Not sure when your observations were made, but it pans out pretty much like daytime trains. Ignore anyone who tries to tell you that they're running dead, they're far from it.

I'm told on good authority (very regular users, not Serco) that the sleepers are generally busier now than they were under First, I don't know about the seated sections.

I'm told by someone at Serco that they could sell many services 2 times over.

 

[marks87]

Huge ask I know, but would someone be able to possibly provide the info for the formation of the Highland too?

Thanks.

I don't know the precise coach letters, but on leaving Euston:

Buffers
Inverness seats
Inverness lounge
Inverness sleepers (x6)
-----
Aberdeen seats
Aberdeen lounge
Aberdeen sleepers (x4)
-----
Fort William Sleepers (x2)
Loco

This leaves it in the right order for leaving Waverley - Inverness out first, followed by Aberdeen, then Fort William (after having the seats and lounge added).

 

[Scotrail84]

I don't know the precise coach letters, but on leaving Euston:

Buffers
Inverness seats
Inverness lounge
Inverness sleepers (x6)
-----
Aberdeen seats
Aberdeen lounge
Aberdeen sleepers (x4)
-----
Fort William Sleepers (x2)
Loco

This leaves it in the right order for leaving Waverley - Inverness out first, followed by Aberdeen, then Fort William (after having the seats and lounge added).

Thats wrong. Ft William has 3 x sleepers, Aberdeen has 3 x sleepers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I can vouch for healthy loads in the seats last 2 trips too, admitedly a Northbound Friday but the Edinburgh seats were full

 

[Scotrail84]

The autocoupling ability should stop staff having to get between the coaches reducing the risk of staff injuries would be my assumption for the reasoning.

Staff still need to get in between the coaches to couple up, in fact the process will be trickier than the current method.

Wont they still have to connect the jumpers and bagpipes though? Or have they gone over to the train wire system (I hope not)...?

Yes they will still have to connect jumper cables and I think air bags too although I'd need to check re the air bags.

....And guess what autocoupling also means.....No shunters needed to assist so staffing levels can be reduced.

Incorrect, shunters will still be required a the usual points to couple/uncouple. While the couplers will couple automatically, at least thy are supposed to the couplers still need split manually along with all the jumper cables so no staff level reductions are planned, indeed I believe a another shunters position is planned to be created at Edinburgh.

Or the drivers do it?

As far as the sleepers are concerned the drivers do not touch the coaches, they're nothing to do with couple on/off procedures involving coaches. The shunters do it and on the mainline in an emergency situation the guards do it. Also if no shunters are available for any reason then guard can also be asked to help out as they are fully trained on shunt duties.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm told by someone at Serco that they could sell many services 2 times over.

I don't think that is quite accurate to be fair.

 

[Clansman]

I thought all the portions just mix and match depending on general demand? Aberdeen has always had 4 x sleepers from what I remember, and Fort William has 2 x sleeper. However that being said, 3 x Sleeper each crops up often.

Don't know the coach letters off by heart, but I'm positive this is the Highland Sleeper Formation out of Euston (in order: rear to front)

1 x Mk2 Seated [ Inverness]
1 x Mk2 Lounge
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
5 x Mk3 Sleepers
-----------------------------
1 x Mk2 Seated [Aberdeen]
1 x Mk2 Lounge
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
3 (or 2) x Mk3 Sleepers
-----------------------------
1 (or 2) x Mk3 Sleepers [Fort William*]
1 x Mk3 Sleeper (D)
-----------------------------
1 x Loco [Edinburgh]

Factor in the reversal at Waverley, the order of which the portions arrive/depart Waverley shed light on what position each portion is on N/B & S/B sleepers:

Southbound:
1st to arrive: Aberdeen portion
2nd to arrive: Fort William portion
3rd to arrive: Inverness portion

Northbound:
1st to depart: Inverness portion
2nd to depart: Aberdeen portion
3rd to depart: Fort William portion

So overall, the Southbound Fort William and Aberdeen portions form the Northbound Inverness portion. The then Southbound Inverness portion splits into 2 & 4 (or 3 & 3) at Waverley to form both the Northbound Fort William and Aberdeen portions, with the lounge and seated cars from that portion going up to Aberdeen whilst an additional 2 coaches are shunted on to the Fort William sleepers at Waverley.


*1 x Mk2 Lounge & 1 x Mk2 Seated coupled (N/B) and uncoupled (S/B) at Edinburgh
(D) = Accessible berth & Accessible toilet

 

[marks87]

Thats wrong. Ft William has 3 x sleepers, Aberdeen has 3 x sleepers.

It must have changed relatively recently then. It certainly used to be a 4/2 split, except in peak tourist season when it was 3/3.

In any case, it makes little practical difference to the formation I posted. The order is Inverness at the back, Aberdeen in the middle and Fort William at the front.

 

[Scotrail84]

Not sure when your observations were made, but it pans out pretty much like daytime trains. Ignore anyone who tries to tell you that they're running dead, they're far from it.

Busiest northbound Wed-Fri nights, busiest southbound Sun and Mon nights.

Busier in the holiday seasons than in the winter, with peak loadings around Easter and other Bank Holidays. For example, every bed was taken on the northbound Highlander last Wednesday ahead of Easter, and it'll be like that now on the Inverness and Fort William on Thursdays and Fridays through until the end of the summer. Same on Sundays and Mondays southbound.

Inverness and Fort William sections are the quickest to fill on the Highlander, Edinburgh on the Lowlander, and Aberdeen and Glasgow are the routes where you're most likely to get a berth at very short notice.

I'm told on good authority (very regular users, not Serco) that the sleepers are generally busier now than they were under First, I don't know about the seated sections.

It varies from day to day, some nights the seats are fully booked as well as the berth but other nights they less than 50% capacity.

For example tonights highlander Inverness is nowhere near full, roughly around 50% Northbound but almost 100% full southbound.

The lowlander Northbound is well below 50% full and the Southbound is 95% full.