Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Chrism20]

Two of the bigger stops on the Aberdeen route are Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing and tbh if I I was getting the sleeper from any of those two I'd go on the lowlander due to the later departure and earlier arrivals of the Aberdeen portion.

The only other big stop on the Aberdeen portion is Dundee. Leuchars might do a turn if something is on at St Andrews and there will be a few from Arbroath & Montrose but that's it. Anytime I've travelled on the Aberdeen portion it's been mostly end to end traffic with decent few at Dundee and a handful elsewhere at most.

 

[BRX]

The population of dundee + aberdeen is about 360k.

Inverness 60k at most. You could add in perth as an equivalent to dundee even though it has even earlier/later departure times which would get you up to around 100k total.

Intermediate stops Arbroath and montrose are about 20k and 10k respectively. Conpare that with the stops between perth and inverness...I can't think of anywhere with more than 2 or 3k.

So it remains curious to me that there's not more demand on the Aberdeen service. Are tourist volumes to Inverness really so much greater?

I wonder if the shootin' and fishin' brigade are part of the answer (as with fort william).

 

[CosherB]

I dare say that CS know the business drivers for capacity requirements north of the border, and form their trains accordingly.

 

[Chrism20]

The population of dundee + aberdeen is about 360k.

Inverness 60k at most. You could add in perth as an equivalent to dundee even though it has even earlier/later departure times which would get you up to around 100k total.

Intermediate stops Arbroath and montrose are about 20k and 10k respectively. Conpare that with the stops between perth and inverness...I can't think of anywhere with more than 2 or 3k.

So it remains curious to me that there's not more demand on the Aberdeen service. Are tourist volumes to Inverness really so much greater?

I wonder if the shootin' and fishin' brigade are part of the answer (as with fort william).

It's not just population IMO. VTECs timings, particularly northbound will play a factor on the sleeper loading to Aberdeen.

You can leave London at 1600 and be in bed in Aberdeen before midnight, Dundee has a respectable 10pm-ish arrival from London.

Anyone doing business in London and travelling back north can have almost a full days business and be on the 1600 and be in their own bed that night rather than sitting about in Euston then trundling up the WCML.

Thats the difference IMO, I could be completely wrong though but even as a person who loves train travel and particularly likes the sleeper after a days work my own bed wins almost every time and if you're going to have to spend a night away from home the daytime train, night in a hotel and daytime train back may be more appealing to a lot of people and there probably isn't that much of a price difference at times as since the Aberdeen portion has been cut to three carriages fares have definitely increased.

There is definitely more tourist traffic to Inverness without a doubt. I'm not sure of the split between business and leisure but it's significantly different between Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely the fact that Aberdeen (and intermediate stations to the central belt) has a much better day service than the Highland line means that the customer base has more options to London. Therefore less likely to use the sleeper.

Another factor may be that compared to Inverness, Aberdeen has twice as many flights to/from London, with 3 times as many post 1800. If you need to do a full day's work in London and the late flight(s) back are full (or if you don't like Easyjet) the sleeper is the only other option. To get to Aberdeen you have 6 flights from 4 airports with 3 carriers after 1800.

 

[DelW]

But that whole journey must take 6 or 7 hours at the best of times, so it must be that you are able to leave work mid afternoon and arrive at work midday. For someone not able to do this, the calculation would be different.

I used to commute part-weekly between home in south-west Surrey and work in Milngavie, and I could do it reliably in around 4 hours door to door, less on a good day, and that was leaving a margin for possible road delays going to each airport. When you do journeys like that regularly, you get to know just how long it will take you to park, how long to allow for security, etc. so speeding the whole process up considerably. I used my car at the south end and a hire car in Scotland, and that way I could be in work at Milngavie by about 9:00 - 9:15. Leaving work at about 18:00 (a couple of days later) would get me onto an evening flight and home about 22:00, so my employer got full days work out of me.

 

[Highland37]

A friend of mine commutes Aviemore to Inverness each day on the Sleeper, if it's on time, and reports that the last three nights were 2x73 but it's now 67013 again. He or I don't know why.

 

[Bald Rick]

I used to commute part-weekly between home in south-west Surrey and work in Milngavie, and I could do it reliably in around 4 hours door to door, less on a good day, and that was leaving a margin for possible road delays going to each airport. When you do journeys like that regularly, you get to know just how long it will take you to park, how long to allow for security, etc. so speeding the whole process up considerably. I used my car at the south end and a hire car in Scotland, and that way I could be in work at Milngavie by about 9:00 - 9:15. Leaving work at about 18:00 (a couple of days later) would get me onto an evening flight and home about 22:00, so my employer got full days work out of me.

Agree entirely. I have often departed Fort William after 1700 and been home in Hertfordshire before 2300, and that usually includes time for a leisurely meal and a couple of pints in Glasgow airport. If I cut that out and travelled with cabin bags only my door to door would be well under 5 hours.

I know this is a rail forum, and many will think I am mad... I can get the sleeper for free, and I go to Scotland frequently, yet I will always fly in preference to using the sleeper.

 

[paul1609]

Not going to argue about what works best for you personally.

But that whole journey must take 6 or 7 hours at the best of times, so it must be that you are able to leave work mid afternoon and arrive at work midday. For someone not able to do this, the calculation would be different.

It would also of course be different if your commute was in the other direction and you wanted to maximise your time in scotland rather than kent.

No I normally get the 16.49 train south from Garelochead, 19.10 flight from Glasgow gets me in to the village pub for a proper cider around 22.20, If I have to work late there is a much later BA flight to Gatwick at 21.20 gets me home at just after midnight, whether I get Cider depends on the scope of that nights lock-in. On the return flight I travel up on the last flight which usually means leaving home around 17.00 start work at 0800 next morning.
Ive only had 1 serious delay this year when the return flight was diverted to Prestwick.

 

[GrimShady]

I used to commute part-weekly between home in south-west Surrey and work in Milngavie, and I could do it reliably in around 4 hours door to door, less on a good day, and that was leaving a margin for possible road delays going to each airport. When you do journeys like that regularly, you get to know just how long it will take you to park, how long to allow for security, etc. so speeding the whole process up considerably. I used my car at the south end and a hire car in Scotland, and that way I could be in work at Milngavie by about 9:00 - 9:15. Leaving work at about 18:00 (a couple of days later) would get me onto an evening flight and home about 22:00, so my employer got full days work out of me.

I also get to use the sleeper through my employer which I take full advantage of every time whenever time isn't a constraint.

 

[LeylandLen]

Cable fire near South Hampstead north London closes all lines in and out of Euston until at least 2000 so no doubt sleepers affected . Obviously lots of delayed stranded passengers on Virgin and LM

 

[43096]

A friend of mine commutes Aviemore to Inverness each day on the Sleeper, if it's on time, and reports that the last three nights were 2x73 but it's now 67013 again. He or I don't know why.

73971 has gone back to Brush (again!) - no idea why.

The 67 is an insurance replacement for the damaged 73969 (whilst it is being repaired), it makes sense to put as many miles on that as possible rather than on your own locos.

 

[BRX]

Surely the fact that Aberdeen (and intermediate stations to the central belt) has a much better day service than the Highland line means that the customer base has more options to London. Therefore less likely to use the sleeper.

Another factor may be that compared to Inverness, Aberdeen has twice as many flights to/from London, with 3 times as many post 1800. If you need to do a full day's work in London and the late flight(s) back are full (or if you don't like Easyjet) the sleeper is the only other option. To get to Aberdeen you have 6 flights from 4 airports with 3 carriers after 1800.

True enough.

Serco had better start a campaign against improvements to the Highland Main Line....

 

[TimboM]

A friend of mine commutes Aviemore to Inverness each day on the Sleeper, if it's on time, and reports that the last three nights were 2x73 but it's now 67013 again. He or I don't know why.

67013 has remained in use over the weekend - however due to the engineering works over the Easter weekend in the Motherwell area it was needed for ECS/Edinburgh portion moves that were running temporarily over a non-electrified route between Polmadie/Glasgow and Edinburgh (these workings have normally been done in recent weeks by 86401 and the F/L 90s when under the wires). I think as these moves are generally 8 coaches plus another loco on the end, the 67 was preferred. It therefore came off its 'normal' Inverness duties for the long weekend to be replaced by the 2x 73s.

Now engineering works are over and routes back to normal, the electrics can work the ECS and Edinburgh portions via Carstairs under the wires and 67013 went back on the northbound EDB-Inverness working in the early hours of this morning (having brought up the Edinburgh portion ECS from Polmadie yesterday evening). I suspect 67013 will now stay on the Inverness (until the next round of engineering...)

73971 has gone back to Brush (again!) - no idea why.

The 67 is an insurance replacement for the damaged 73969 (whilst it is being repaired), it makes sense to put as many miles on that as possible rather than on your own locos.

I'd be interested how the contracts/arrangements work for these - maybe with the 67 as it's an 'insurance replacement' there isn't a per mile charge and it does make sense like you say to use it as much as possible.

However, for the 2x F/L 90s on hire still, over the past few weeks they've appeared to try and use them as little as possible (typically one has worked the EDB portion - the shortest run under the wires, and the other has sat at Willesden; they've only done 'long runs' to bail out 92s on a couple of occasions). I'm guessing in part it's to prove the 92s are able to cope, but I also wonder if on this contract there's a mileage charge to F/L too?

As for 73971 going back to Loughborough, no idea why, however it was working the Aberdeen service the last couple of days and the move to Brush was in as an STP a few days back (i.e. before then), so it's obviously something that's been planned for a bit and isn't something (it would appear) that stops it from working. Maybe something needs an 'adjustment'; or prep work for the new stock?

 

[TimboM]

Whats the ETA on the new MK5 fleet?

I dying to try one out

Whenever asked on Twitter recently, CS quote "April 2018".

 

[Bald Rick]

True enough.

Serco had better start a campaign against improvements to the Highland Main Line....

... and the A9 Dualling. Oh.

 

[TimboM]

This debate about loadings/capacity etc. to the various destinations is genuinely interesting, but isn't it missing the point somewhat that the Sleeper is inherently loss making and subsidised to the tune of many £millions by the UK government? (for whatever tourism/political reasons which I'm sure has been debated previously and doesn't need debating again...)

Consequently, there's presumably a fair bit more around what services run to where (and when) than what is driven by just the economics. If it were just down to what was profitable, half the Sleepers (or perhaps even all of them) wouldn't run at all.

 

[GW43125]

Certainly looks interesting re tonight's northbound sleepers.

CS adamant it will go ahead but currently T-23 mins to the highland and it hasn't even left Wembley yet, add to that that 1&15 are currently occupied by 390s-can the sleeper fit in 16?

 

[wls1]

Cable fire near South Hampstead north London closes all lines in and out of Euston until at least 2000 so no doubt sleepers affected . Obviously lots of delayed stranded passengers on Virgin and LM

Disruption now into tomorrow morning so the evening sleepers will be disrupted. Anyone know what will happen?

 

[TimboM]

Certainly looks interesting re tonight's northbound sleepers.

CS adamant it will go ahead but currently T-23 mins to the highland and it hasn't even left Wembley yet, add to that that 1&15 are currently occupied by 390s-can the sleeper fit in 16?

Bigger issue is they've closed Euston to passengers again due to inadequate lighting - so even if Sleeper can get there and into Platform 16, passengers (as it stands) can't board!

Suspect Plan B is being looked at (again) rapidly...

 

[GW43125]

Bigger issue is they've closed Euston to passengers again due to inadequate lighting - so even if Sleeper can get there and into Platform 16, passengers (as it stands) can't board!

Suspect Plan B is being looked at (again) rapidly...

Enough people have torches on their phones (I'm taking the mick before someone jumps at me), but that would seem to be the gist-but if they start from WFJ what about all the pax stuck in London, surely a fair proportion?

 

[Crossover]

Highland Sleeper still not left Wembley

 

[TimboM]

Enough people have torches on their phones (I'm taking the mick before someone jumps at me), but that would seem to be the gist-but if they start from WFJ what about all the pax stuck in London, surely a fair proportion?

As per comments on the Euston disruption thread, Kings Cross may be a more likely Plan B. That said they may just sit it out and hope for a resumption of service soon(ish)? Either way going to be a challenge to sort and delayed.

 

[GW43125]

As per comments on the Euston disruption thread, Kings Cross may be a more likely Plan B. That said they may just sit it out and hope for a resumption of service soon(ish)? Either way going to be a challenge to sort and delayed.

That would seem sensible. Though I do wonder how well they'd Be able to recover? Also where would it cross back to the WCML: you don't want to leave out watford/Preston pax either

 

[Crossover]

That would seem sensible. Though I do wonder how well they'd Be able to recover? Also where would it cross back to the WCML: you don't want to leave out watford/Preston pax either

With Watford a no-go potentially, I would think it would go non-stop via the ECML

 

[TimboM]

That would seem sensible. Though I do wonder how well they'd Be able to recover? Also where would it cross back to the WCML: you don't want to leave out watford/Preston pax either

You were right!

They've just said on Twitter the Highlander will start at Watford Jnc

(Don't think all the coaches fit though, so some may need to be locked and boarded from further down?)

 

[GW43125]

You were right!

They've just said on Twitter the Highlander will start at Watford Jnc

(Don't think all the coaches fit though, so some may need to be locked and boarded from further down?)

Pretty sure they don't, interestingly I can never get availability seated EDB-WFJ; could this be platform length related?

 

[Devonman2014]

You were right!

They've just said on Twitter the Highlander will start at Watford Jnc

(Don't think all the coaches fit though, so some may need to be locked and boarded from further down?)

Any idea on departure time ? I'm waiting at Crewe to join it ...

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm eating my words here. I thought it would not start at Watford but it is. Staff and crew en route to Watford now. No estimated time of departure at the moment.

 

[GW43125]

Apparently there's word Euston is partially reopening-do we know whether they'll send the lowland in or still too early to call?