Speculating to the future: What next for the West Highland Line (WHL)?

[CosherB]

I think Neil is right in that there IS a tourist potential to be tapped but i think that is more by Jacobite style steam services rather than by TOC's franchised services.

Maybe some new business opportunities for WCRC!

 

[Altnabreac]

You are selecting facts to fit your argument, without accepting the reality of the situation. I have no idea why you are clutching at the CS as an example of rolling stock procurement for what is 100 miles or so of regular commuting traffic.

As DarloRich has pointed out, the CS benefits from massive political subsidies - it received £17 million in 2015-16 (http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/22982/rail-finance-statistical-release-2015-16.pdf), plus the Scottish Government has stumped up a £60 million grant to support the new Mk5 rolling stock procurement programme. The single reason for all of this money? Connectivity with London.

I am utterly dumfounded at some of the suggestions on here for rolling stock - although I suppose that I shouldn't have been surprised at the old HST "1+4" chestnut rearing it's head again. Please accept that the line will get standard DMUs - the likes of the 158 or 185 or their ilk will be more than adequate. I have no idea why this line deserves such 'special' rolling stock treatment.

Political subsidies will also be available for WHL. Politicians want to see something for their money though and tourist revenues are especially important to the Highland economy. Anything that can be done to boost tourism numbers at a relatively marginal cost will be encouraged.

We have already seen in this franchise a willingness to spec Scenic Stock provision differently from the generic suburban provision within the limitations of reusing current vehicles. I think it not only possible but entirely likely that the next Franchise will have a higher tourist spec for the new stock that will need to be ordered.

A bit of luggage and cycle space, food prep area, good table provision and alignment with windows are really marginal costs when procuring new stock.

Forward facing CCTV, Tourist information, Commentary etc are not really stock issues as such although provision of in train wifi, GPS location etc will help to deliver them.

The only really more expensive / difficult suggestion has been Swiss Style high level glass bodyshells. I'd be interested to see what level of cost is added in specifying a scenic high level glass Flirt compared to a standard suburban one? I'm not sure it will be a huge add on to the cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suspect not that high, too, as they have already done it (not for the UK, but the FLIRT factory seems flexible).

 

[Clansman]

TBF your post here...
is a decent stab at a possible specification. The chief issue, as so often these days, is finding a balance between the different needs that a train has to meet. For instance end doors need to be quite wide if bicycles are going to manoeuvre through them but that may reduce the space for seats. Same applies to a fixed catering point if you want something more than a Class 158 style stowage point.

Cheers, I was hopeful that it was a decent and realistic stab at it.

The end doors can easily be slightly wider, and indeed sliding rather than plug without interfering with the windows - luggage space and toilets would prevent this happening. By having a "trolley station", I was really just implying a bog standard trolley storage space, which doesn't intrude the vestibule areas. So a 158 style trolley point would be more than sufficient on 2/3 coach trains as far as my thought of specifications.

I totally agree about the need for gangwayed ends. If it was for me to decide no unit would be built without them. While I have a small degree of sympathy with drivers' complaints about the view out it's something which ought to soluble by more driver input at the design stage (and drivers would do well to remember just how well paid they are these days!)

I agree about having them on commuter journeys and journeys which in general have a guard and a trolley. I'd stop short by saying all trains need to have end gangways (if that's what you were implying) because Intercity trains are normally fixed lengths already and don't need to double up. Even on suburban stock we are finding that there isn't a need for end gangways - as demonstrated in and around Strathclyde.

Another major factor that's worth remembering is that unlike last time, any new ScotRail trains for the scenic routes really would actually only be used on scenic services even if not kitted out specially. The 156s and 158s ended up running basically every sort of diesel service, from the Glasgow-Aberdeen expresses to branch lines like Paisley Canal. While only the RETB subfleet were able to run on most scenic routes, these trains could and still do end up running other diesel services across the ScotRail network. This was demonstrated in the recent Maryhill line landslip where the reason to bustitute from Crianlarich despite the Queen Street LL route being available was that the WHL trains needed to do other turns and the extra delay from the diversion couldn't be accommodated. However, this is very much on the way out with further electrification of suburban routes. The WHL 156s really won't be able to do much more than those and Anniesland runs, with the 385s running all of the stoppers in the Central Belt, the HSTs doing the express runs and their 75mph top speed making them impractical for use on the remaining diesel Dundee/Perth stoppers. Unless the trains were diagrammed to go over the City Union line and then make up GSW line services, they'll never do anything but scenic routes. Anniesland is obviously ripe for electrification but even then a scenic train on that line wouldn't be the end of the world given its short length and low passenger numbers. In the long term, electrification up to Aberdeen and Inverness (and presumably in between) will mean that the scenic trains from Glasgow and from Inverness will really have no reason to ever leave those areas.

If the trains are going to be restricted to scenic routes by default, there really doesn't seem to be any negative to making them optimal for those services. Beyond catering there are other enhancements which would require effectively no effort at all. That daft idea of external CCTV being displayed to passengers just requires a small piece of software running on the train internet system. The forward-facing CCTV is already going to be connected to this system for remote monitoring and retrieval purposes, so all you need is to send the live video stream to a web browser and you're done. Touristy info can also just be done through the normal train internet portal. Power sockets and WiFi would be happening regardless of the rest of the equipment standard.

I can see your point regarding the flexibility of DMUs beyond 2019, however I think we need to remember that there isn't a direct service worked by 156s work that see them automatically venture out to Edinburgh and Glasgow Central from lines out of Queen Street, without going empty stock anyway. So in that respect, you can already conclude that the 156 fleet as a whole is pretty contained as it is. Under First, the 156s didn't even see Croy for the majority of the time until later on in the franchise. Even the 170 and 158 fleet will be contained on some routes when the HSTs start next year. But the advantage of this is that in turn Scotrail can chop and change what units work on what routes, whether this be for capacity or if one is needing taken out of service. Scenic stock catered for 1 line doesn't pose the same flexibility that Scotrail can take advantage of with the 156s.

At the end of the day one way or another, the 156s (and soon the 158s) will be replaced by new built DMUs for remaining unelectrified lines. The trains that need replacing all work different "genres" of routes, so the most logical approach would be to build a large fleet of DMUs to cater for each and every one of them in the appropriate way which allows the operational flexibility Scotrail has today. So overall you're at new stock for the WHL, FNL and GSWR. You could even go as far as saying that you can shift the 170s and 158s which are going to work new commuter services between Inverness/Kingussie/Elgin, as they tend to struggle with the gradients on these routes - which won't get any better as they age. So even then you can then say the logical solution would be a mass order of DMUs to work the West of Scotland, with all the older DMUs going to Fife and the East Coast on less fuel demanding lines with on average shorter journeys.

So overall, the logical solution would be to kill 2 birds with stone and to order a large fleet of DMUs of 2/3/4 car length which cater for all the markets the sprinters currently serve - as highlighted in a few posts by myself and other members. That way Scotrail then have a uniformed fleet of modern DMUs on suitable medium to long distance routes along with the 170s on short-medium distance commuter routes.

On the subject of Swiss style scenic stock tailored to the WHL and WHL only, I just can't see the feasibility of such trains in regular operation for Scotrail to cater for both commuters and tourists. I agree with CosherB and DarloRich that seasonal journeys funded and operated by private organisations like West Coast railways would be popular with the tourism market. But under Scotrail I just don't buy the idea of anything as extravagant as what the Swiss have, as being feasible nor what Scotrail need to replace the ageing trains that work the WHL, FNL, GSWR etc (even if they were exclusive to one line).

 

[route:oxford]

eh? you aren't going to pay for new carriages and then store them! you either don't buy them or use them all year round.

Believe it or not, but there are certain times of the year when tourists aren't clamouring to make the 164 mile, 5h15m rail journey from Glagow to Mallaig.

Therefore, there are three options:-

Buy units that are not adequate for service provision during the peak tourist season where there is the greatest revenue

Buy fixed formation units that cart fresh air around the country during off-peak season.

Buy adaptable units, that can be reformed during off-peak seasons to avoid wasting diesel and mileage carting fresh air around the country and accepting that this might cause considerable distress to enthusiasts who object to dynamic load management.

 

[47271]

I've got it!

Commission Stadler to faithfully create reproduction 27s and 37s with facsimilie mk1 and mk2 coaches, but with aircon, wood panelling, tartan upholstery and all other modern standards, and the capacity for inoperability with steam. A crucial part of the spec is to ensure that engine note is identical to that of the original locos. Sulzer can be asked to cunningly help them out with what a Class 27 sounds like.

As part of the retail spec, Tartan Special, Sweetheart Stout, Maxpax coffee, soggy sandwiches and BR branded pork pies have to be sold from the reproduction mk1 Griddle Car, extended to at seat service Goldenpass style. An out of work actor playing a 1970s drunken Mallaig fisherman is employed to engage tourists in incoherent and often abusive conversation between April and October.

The Kyle and Far North can be replaced in the same way as a follow on order, but with repro 26s rather than 27s. Sulzer can help with those too.

They're Swiss: they take a brief, they understand tourism built around railway heritage and they can engineer anything. For money.

All of my best ideas are unusable.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think the GSWR should be a good fit for the spare 185s from TPE given this is more a locals/commuter route? Thoughts?

 

[Clansman]

I think the GSWR should be a good fit for the spare 185s from TPE given this is more a locals/commuter route? Thoughts?

I thought of this as well on the "22 class 185s going free" thread. I think they'd be a decent fit in my opinion or at least a 5-10 year stop-gap between getting new stock altogether. Enhanced quality of trains, albeit with a major interior refurbishment as they're in a tatty state, but overall I think they'd be welcomed by commuters.

Can't think of another route which suits them more.

 

[Kneedown]

I've got it!

Commission Stadler to faithfully create reproduction 27s and 37s with facsimilie mk1 and mk2 coaches, but with aircon, wood panelling, tartan upholstery and all other modern standards, and the capacity for inoperability with steam. A crucial part of the spec is to ensure that engine note is identical to that of the original locos. Sulzer can be asked to cunningly help them out with what a Class 27 sounds like.

As part of the retail spec, Tartan Special, Sweetheart Stout, Maxpax coffee, soggy sandwiches and BR branded pork pies have to be sold from the reproduction mk1 Griddle Car, extended to at seat service Goldenpass style. An out of work actor playing a 1970s drunken Mallaig fisherman is employed to engage tourists in incoherent and often abusive conversation between April and October.

The Kyle and Far North can be replaced in the same way as a follow on order, but with repro 26s rather than 27s. Sulzer can help with those too.

They're Swiss: they take a brief, they understand tourism built around railway heritage and they can engineer anything. For money.

All of my best ideas are unusable.

I think you're onto a winner there! They could develop the concept with a reproduction 45 (fitted with a pantograph) and Mk2's for the new MML fleet!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think the GSWR should be a good fit for the spare 185s from TPE given this is more a locals/commuter route? Thoughts?

I thought of this as well on the "22 class 185s going free" thread. I think they'd be a decent fit in my opinion or at least a 5-10 year stop-gap between getting new stock altogether. Enhanced quality of trains, albeit with a major interior refurbishment as they're in a tatty state, but overall I think they'd be welcomed by commuters.

Can't think of another route which suits them more.

The problem here is that Barrhead and East Kilbride are going to be wired up only a few years after the 185s become available. Only the Kilmarnock and Carlisle services will then need DMUs, and there would be too many 185s for them. The situation would be worse if Kilmarnock is wired up too, as then it would be run by the same Class 380/385-style trains used on EK and Barrhead.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Give the rest to Northern for the Tyne Valley stoppers post Connect launch and the current interworking could continue.

The hill climbing grunt would be welcomed both North and South of the border, the ability to pelt up and down the WCML could even be utilised both on the existing service and on some peek time Carlisle Lockerbie shuttles, meaning commuters from that area had more choice.

 

[DarloRich]

Believe it or not, but there are certain times of the year when tourists aren't clamouring to make the 164 mile, 5h15m rail journey from Glagow to Mallaig.

Therefore, there are three options:-

Buy units that are not adequate for service provision during the peak tourist season where there is the greatest revenue

Buy fixed formation units that cart fresh air around the country during off-peak season.

Buy adaptable units, that can be reformed during off-peak seasons to avoid wasting diesel and mileage carting fresh air around the country and accepting that this might cause considerable distress to enthusiasts who object to dynamic load management.

Do try to be rational.

Your final option wont get singed off for investment as it wastes vasts sums of money for long periods of the year when your extra carriages sit in a nice warm shed doing not a lot and means you have to wait even longer for pay back.

I can see the headlines in the Mail now:

Millions spent on new carriages used 3 months of the year while you are crammed in like sheep. Disgusting waste of taxpayers money says rentaquote Conservative MP

:roll:

 

[philthetube]

Do try to be rational.

Your final option wont get singed off for investment as it wastes vasts sums of money for long periods of the year when your extra carriages sit in a nice warm shed doing not a lot and means you have to wait even longer for pay back.

I can see the headlines in the Mail now:

Millions spent on new carriages used 3 months of the year while you are crammed in like sheep. Disgusting waste of taxpayers money says rentaquote Conservative MP

:roll:

Better chance of brand new loco hauled gold plated stock than a tory MP in Scotland.

 

[Class 170101]

For those mentioing WiFi I would ask is there sufficient coverage on the WHL routes for it to work well?

 

[Blindtraveler]

In a word, No.

 

[Altnabreac]

For those mentioing WiFi I would ask is there sufficient coverage on the WHL routes for it to work well?

There are 2 potential parts to the on train wifi provision. Ability to access the internet and ability to communicate with train based data like at seat food, cctv, commentary etc.

The latter is not dependent on the existence of the former.

 

[DarloRich]

Better chance of brand new loco hauled gold plated stock than a tory MP in Scotland.

The rentaquote would be an MP for a southern commuter constituency. There are 31 Tory MSP's ( the second biggest block behind SNP) and 1 Scottish Tory MP

 

[Clansman]

The problem here is that Barrhead and East Kilbride are going to be wired up only a few years after the 185s become available. Only the Kilmarnock and Carlisle services will then need DMUs, and there would be too many 185s for them. The situation would be worse if Kilmarnock is wired up too, as then it would be run by the same Class 380/385-style trains used on EK and Barrhead.

I wouldn't put them on East Kilbride and Barrhead - It'd just be a major waste of capacity at peak times - that's the problem with the 185s, they've less seating capacity compared to 156s.

With their high powered acceleration and first class provision, in that respect they would be a good fit for Glasgow to Stranraer/Dumfries and Newcastle, and possibly Inverness "Crossrail" between Elgin and Kingussie when it starts up next year. But when it comes to the actual quality of comfort etc that they provide, they'd be a downgrade when it comes capacity and seating comfort, as the Scotrail 170s are much nicer to travel on than the 185s (and have a plug socket at every seat).

Will it happen? No. Hence why it's easier to talk about new rolling stock altogether as that'll definitely happen in the next 5-10 years. Although I think the 185s would be a welcome improvement on that line, they'd only really be useful as a stop gap measure between improving the service to allow the 156s to go offlease, and procuring new rolling stock.

 

[Class 170101]

Too many SP Speeds in Scotland for the 185s on all the routes mentioned.

 

[InOban]

Apologies for ignorance, but please e plain SP Speeds. Not a term I've heard before.

 

[GrimShady]

A timely reminder of how unpopular these units have been over the years on the WHL. They were always too noisy (for long distance routes), too cramped, were basic to the point of being merely functional and quite frankly why anyone ever wanted to travel in them is a puzzle to me. If BR management ever devised a "train" - if that's what you could call them - to deter passengers from travelling/using the WHL the 156/158's fitted the bill perfectly.

The Class 37's with Mark II's were probably the zenith of the WHL, however there is a new opportunity to improve the experience for passengers. I would argue for the refurbishment of cascaded HST 125 units, with one power car, four carriages and a push/pull arrangement on the rear carriage. This configuration literally saved Scotrail back in the late 1970's when 47/7's and MKIII'S replaced the 27's push/pull arrangements. (Incidentally I remember these thrashing out of Queen Street and sometimes it was an odd loco combo - 27/37 or 25/37).

If Scotrail wanted to retain the existing Oban+Ft Bill combo - then you could arrange to have an 8 carriage set, splitting in the middle at Crianlarich, with the leading carriage for Ft Bill being the driver trailer.

Whatever the outcome the existing units are well past their life expires status and I for one would never travel on the WHL until they are replaced with something much better!

THIS

I for one am sick to death of the 156s, we've been suffering them on this run for 25 years now! How many times has the line been voted one of the best scenic journeys in the world? As a regular user of the line I constantly here comments from locals and tourists alike with regard to the poor comfort of these trains and severe lack of luggage space, the same comments I've been hearing since 1989!

In the early 80s the idea of running steam excursion services to Mallaig seemed mad, now its one of the most popular runs in the UK.

I've been all for using old HSTs sets for years!

 

[adrock1976]

Apologies for ignorance, but please e plain SP Speeds. Not a term I've heard before.

I believe it stands for Sprinter Differential. If I remember right, this means that as Sprinters have a lightweight bodyshell, they can travel at higher speeds than otherwise would be allowed when compared to locomotive hauled trains or Intercity trains.

An example is along the section of line between Ely and Norwich. Sprinters can travel at a higher speed, however Class 222s (and any other Intercity train) cannot.

Somebody who has more knowledge of Sprinter Differentials may explain it better than me.

 

[D1009]

Apologies for ignorance, but please e plain SP Speeds. Not a term I've heard before.

Differential speed limits for Sprinters, or rather low axle load units. 185s are too heavy.

 

[Mordac]

I believe it stands for Sprinter Differential. If I remember right, this means that as Sprinters have a lightweight bodyshell, they can travel at higher speeds than otherwise would be allowed when compared to locomotive hauled trains or Intercity trains.

An example is along the section of line between Ely and Norwich. Sprinters can travel at a higher speed, however Class 222s (and any other Intercity train) cannot.

Somebody who has more knowledge of Sprinter Differentials may explain it better than me.

Straight from the horse's mouth sectional appendix:

Rule Book Module SP - Speeds : Permissible speeds and enhanced permissible speeds
Section 2, Clause 2.1- Permissible speed indicators
This is what the letters mean:
Letters Description
HST Class 91 locomotive with mark 4 vehicles and DVT, classes 158, 159, 168, 170, 171, 172, 175, 180, 220, 221, 222, 253, 254 and 373
MU Multiple Unit Trains
DMU Diesel Multiple Units
EMU Electrical Multiple Units
SP Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 165, 166, 168, 170 , 171 and 172
CS Class 67 locomotive


At locations where more than one speed indicator is displayed, classes listed in more than one speed category shown above, may run at the higher of the speeds displayed.

National exceptions to MU trains
• Class 185 trains are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds
• Class 390 trains are not permitted to run at MU or EMU speeds
• Class 253 and 254 trains formed with less than three coaches between the power cars are not permitted to run at MU or DMU speeds

 

[Bletchleyite]

I for one am sick to death of the 156s, we've been suffering them on this run for 25 years now! How many times has the line been voted one of the best scenic journeys in the world? As a regular user of the line I constantly here comments from locals and tourists alike with regard to the poor comfort of these trains and severe lack of luggage space, the same comments I've been hearing since 1989!

I agree they could do better, but go and look what rubbish is on some scenic journeys in England - think 153s, 142s, 150s etc.

The 156 is *not* short of luggage space. The overhead rack is large and square, and there is a proper van area at one end, as well as space between some seat backs. Though they are in need of new seats being the only ones left with the originals.

 

[wessexrailguy]

More 68s. As we all know Scotland is the most viable part of Britain for Loco-hauled services in the modern day.

 

[InOban]

Straight from the horse's mouth sectional appendix:

Thanks for all the information! How heavy are185s? I know that,like cars, coaches have got heavier and heavier,but surely they can't be like Voyagers?

 

[Clansman]

Thanks for all the information! How heavy are185s? I know that,like cars, coaches have got heavier and heavier,but surely they can't be like Voyagers?

Class 185s have heavier coaches on average when divided by their total weight

3-car Class 185 = 168.5 Tonnes. /3 = 62.16 tonnes per coach (average)

5-car Class 221 = 227.0 Tonnes. /5 = 45.40 tonnes per coach (average)

 

[Clansman]

THIS

I for one am sick to death of the 156s, we've been suffering them on this run for 25 years now! How many times has the line been voted one of the best scenic journeys in the world? As a regular user of the line I constantly here comments from locals and tourists alike with regard to the poor comfort of these trains and severe lack of luggage space, the same comments I've been hearing since 1989!

In the early 80s the idea of running steam excursion services to Mallaig seemed mad, now its one of the most popular runs in the UK.

I've been all for using old HSTs sets for years!

I see why you'd want the HSTs on the WHL, but realistically it's really hard to envisage why Scotrail or Transport Scotland would go through the effort to make station platforms longer and to reconfigure an Mk3 with an end cab for push pull.

An HST would also only last you about 10 years maximum by the time you actually carry out the refurbishments and introduce them etc. Even the HSTs Scotrail are currently getting will be lucky so see beyond 2030 - then what do you bring to the WHL?

Best to get new stock and to have it over and done with for at least 35 years. Scotrail should really be doing Greater Anglia with it's fleet, especially in a time when procuring new rolling stock is "cheaper than using already built rolling stock".

 

[JonathanH]

Best to get new stock and to have it over and done with for at least 35 years. Scotrail should really be doing Greater Anglia with it's fleet, especially in a time when procuring new rolling stock is "cheaper than using already built rolling stock".

Er, if you are hoping new stock will see out 35 years, why shouldn't the 156s?