Speculating to the future: What next for the West Highland Line (WHL)?

[Clansman]

Er, if you are hoping new stock will see out 35 years, why shouldn't the 156s?

I didn't say that the 156s wouldn't last 35 years - indeed they will. But I was speaking in the context of their suitability for the WHL also.

Sure, 156s are perfectly suitable for a 15 minute journey to Anniesland or 25 minutes to Barrhead.

But let's be honest, are they really that suitable for a 5 and a half hour journey on the world's most scenic rail journey in the coldest part of the country? No.

Hence why I was saying that at least if Scotrail were to get new rolling stock just now to displace all sprinters from long distance duties (not just stock specifically tailored to the WHL), then it would be at least 30 odd years before there was talk of them needing replacing due to unsuitability - whereas I imagine the 156s were criticised right from the offing.

 

[GrimShady]

They were indeed! ScotRail even put 37s and Mk2s back on the run at the weekends which lasted until 1993 I think? This was due to the complaints about lack of luggage space/over crowding specifically for the hill walking mob.

ScR also ran 156s as three car units for a breif period too.

 

[380101]

Too many SP Speeds in Scotland for the 185s on all the routes mentioned.

The 185 would be fine on the GSW to Carlisle as there is only one differential speed and it's a very short one - the 185 would easily make the speed back up due to its superior engines compared to the 156.

 

[gsnedders]

For those mentioing WiFi I would ask is there sufficient coverage on the WHL routes for it to work well?

Depends how you do it: almost everywhere in the UK uses mobile telephony based systems, and that won't have coverage. You can also use satellite based systems, and then you have coverage everywhere… and comparatively high latency.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

They were indeed! ScotRail even put 37s and Mk2s back on the run at the weekends which lasted until 1993 I think? This was due to the complaints about lack of luggage space/over crowding specifically for the hill walking mob.

ScR also ran 156s as three car units for a breif period too.

I remember it well – it seemed a bad decision to many people at the time, though it has probably saved quite a lot in running costs over the years by removing the need for a run around at the termini.
At the time I felt a lot of the magic had gone out the journey and it was little different from travelling by bus, so I lost interest a bit in the WHL (since regained).

 

[scotraildriver]

I agree they could do better, but go and look what rubbish is on some scenic journeys in England - think 153s, 142s, 150s etc.

The 156 is *not* short of luggage space. The overhead rack is large and square, and there is a proper van area at one end, as well as space between some seat backs. Though they are in need of new seats being the only ones left with the originals.

The first "fully" refurbished units with new seats, USB charging points and wifi should be in service within 2 weeks. If only the driver was getting a new seat too.......

 

[47271]

The first "fully" refurbished units with new seats, USB charging points and wifi should be in service within 2 weeks.

Hooray, let's see if that improves the experience on the WHL or anywhere elese.

I hope that the charging proves more reliable than that on the refurbed 158s, the last three I've been on have been dead.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

...and wifi...

Good luck with that on the WHL

If only the driver was getting a new seat too.......

Shame – such parsimony, might have understood if it was the Aberdeen trains

 

[scotraildriver]

Hooray, let's see if that improves the experience on the WHL or anywhere elese.

I hope that the charging proves more reliable than that on the refurbed 158s, the last three I've been on have been dead.

The charging points are reliable if used properly. Unfortunately the use of hair straighteners and such like trips out the system (particularly at week3nds)and train crews are not permitted to reset in case it is a genuine fault.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But let's be honest, are they really that suitable for a 5 and a half hour journey on the world's most scenic rail journey in the coldest part of the country? No.

Given that they're not used on a line that fulfills either of the above criteria you might like to think again. Though I'll give you five and a half hours is a touch long to be on a 156. However better than some of the draughty Mk1s that could be found on the line even towards the end of loco-haulage, especially in winter when ice on the insides of the windows was one of the "charms" of the route!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The charging points are reliable if used properly. Unfortunately the use of hair straighteners and such like trips out the system (particularly at week3nds)and train crews are not permitted to reset in case it is a genuine fault.

I was about to make a smartarse reply about USB straighteners but I think the point about misuse of the mains sockpluglets, which in other circumstances are rated at 13A, is an important issue. I do wonder about possible solutions to this recurring problem as some people seem either not to be able to comprehend the warning labels or choose to ignore them.

Interesting that if the 25kV OHLE trips, the appropriate staff are normally expected to reset it (once anyway), but this is not so for the charging sockets on the train.

 

[47271]

I know that we're going off topic on this, but my frustration with power on the 158s is partly borne out of comparison with using it on Scotrail 170s.

I don't believe that I've ever had a dead socket on a 170. No socket at all obviously, but that's another thing.

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes the 158's have a mixture of USB and normal "looking" sockets. I'll check but I'm fairly sure they are only rated at 5amp as the alternator simply cant provide any more, not at every seat anyway hence the mix of sockets and USB.

 

[Clansman]

Given that they're not used on a line that fulfills either of the above criteria you might like to think again. Though I'll give you five and a half hours is a touch long to be on a 156. However better than some of the draughty Mk1s that could be found on the line even towards the end of loco-haulage, especially in winter when ice on the insides of the windows was one of the "charms" of the route!

Ok...5 and a bit hours to Mallaig then. Overall I'm implying that 156s are unsuitable for a journey in excess of 1 or 2 hours. Their design both inside and out is catered best to suburban/local workings. If 156s were still being operated between Glasgow and Inverness, I guarantee you more folk would see their unsuitability.

Not trying to be a crusader of any sort, but more or less can't help but seeing it from the perspective it blatantly is.

 

[scotraildriver]

I know that we're going off topic on this, but my frustration with power on the 158s is partly borne out of comparison with using it on Scotrail 170s.

I don't believe that I've ever has a dead socket on a 170. No socket at all obviously, but that's another thing.

The refurbished units with sockets throughout are more prone to oveloading and tripping. The 1st class only ones are generally ok.

 

[scotraildriver]

I was about to make a smartarse reply about USB straighteners but I think the point about misuse of the mains sockpluglets, which in other circumstances are rated at 13A, is an important issue. I do wonder about possible solutions to this recurring problem as some people seem either not to be able to comprehend the warning labels or choose to ignore them.

Interesting that if the 25kV OHLE trips, the appropriate staff are normally expected to reset it (once anyway), but this is not so for the charging sockets on the train.

I suspect it's more to do with the fact the circuit breaker in a 170 is located above the ceiling in 1st class requiring the conductors to drop a celing panel and then stand on 2 seats and reset the circuit breakers without falling off at 100mph!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The refurbished units with sockets throughout are more prone to oveloading and tripping. The 1st class only ones are generally ok.

Perhaps that's because 1st class passengers are less likely to be using straighteners on the train?

I suspect it's more to do with the fact the circuit breaker in a 170 is located above the ceiling in 1st class requiring the conductors to drop a celing panel and then stand on 2 seats and reset the circuit breakers without falling off at 100mph!

Ah - that sounds like a good reason. Not perhaps the most ideal design, but perhaps the available best solution as it was a retrofit?

 

[GrimShady]

Would a batch of engine upgrades be possible for the 170s?

Apart from the gauging issues what are the technical resons they wouldn't be able to cope?

Another idea would be Class 43 - 3x Mk3 - Ex 156 Driving Trailer. No costly Mk3 conversions needed and still retains the gangway connection. The set can face forward and one aft. Apart from having to convert the Ex 156 Driving trailer to 3 phased supply what other technical issues could there be. Would push pull be suitable for WHL? Could a single 43 be enough motive power?

 

[Clansman]

Would a batch of engine upgrades be possible for the 170s?

Apart from the gauging issues what are the technical resons they wouldn't be able to cope?

Another idea would be Class 43 - 3x Mk3 - Ex 156 Driving Trailer. No costly Mk3 conversions needed and still retains the gangway connection. The set can face forward and one aft. Apart from having to convert the Ex 156 Driving trailer to 3 phased supply what other technical issues could there be. Would push pull be suitable for WHL? Could a single 43 be enough motive power?

Wow.

To be honest new stock would just be much simpler and longer-lasting than HSTs with a 156 on the other end. Most of the HSTs will be scrapped by the time the Scotrail ones are in full service in 2019 on all Intercity routes, so that also backs up the idea for new stock to replace the Sprinters.

As for the 170s, they possibly could be upgraded, but at a large cost I can imagine. The 170s would cope, but they'd be dodgy in a similar manner to how they perform on the Highland Mainline. After the discussion about the HT sets, I think we discussed the utilisation of them for the WHL thoroughly of which there'd be many implications for doing so.

 

[CosherB]

Would a batch of engine upgrades be possible for the 170s?

Apart from the gauging issues what are the technical resons they wouldn't be able to cope?

Another idea would be Class 43 - 3x Mk3 - Ex 156 Driving Trailer. No costly Mk3 conversions needed and still retains the gangway connection. The set can face forward and one aft. Apart from having to convert the Ex 156 Driving trailer to 3 phased supply what other technical issues could there be. Would push pull be suitable for WHL? Could a single 43 be enough motive power?

Oh dear ... oh dear ... oh dear ... :roll:

 

[GrimShady]

Oh dear ... oh dear ... oh dear ... :roll:

Just as well you weren't around in the BR days Cosher otherwise you'd be having a heart attack. ETHEL, DBSO, PUSH PULL 47s, A & B shunters, PCVs, Class 489, Steam to Mallaig........ All raving mad plans!

Whats you solution to the problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh dear ... oh dear ... oh dear ... :roll:

Does it cause you to go into palpitations when we mention Chiltern Mk3s, Wessies returning, ScotRail HSTs etc?

 

[CosherB]

Just as well you weren't around in the BR days Cosher otherwise you'd be having a heart attack. ETHEL, DBSO, PUSH PULL 47s, A & B shunters, PCVs, Class 489, Steam to Mallaig........ All raving mad plans!

Whats you solution to the problem?

I've posted earlier what I think the solutions are, none of which contain a hotch-potch of HSTs and DMUs.

 

[CosherB]

Does it cause you to go into palpitations when we mention Chiltern Mk3s, Wessies returning, ScotRail HSTs etc?

No, yes and no!

 

[43096]

Does it cause you to go into palpitations when we mention Chiltern Mk3s, Wessies returning, ScotRail HSTs etc?

They are all a bit different in terms of common sense from using stripped down 156 cars as driving trailers, though.

 

[Highland37]

Whatever the new stock will be and whenever that is, I agree, the 156s are not suitable for the WHL in terms of providing a quality experience to the passenger. I use the line often and am embarrassed when I speak to foreign tourists about the stock relative to their own countries.

 

[GrimShady]

Things of this nature have been done before. There are many examples some of which I listed above.

 

[GrimShady]

Something will have to be done be it old stock conversions or new stock. Tou can't hope to attract business if the product is substandard.

 

[Clansman]

Something will have to be done be it old stock conversions or new stock. Tou can't hope to attract business if the product is substandard.

If you think that stock conversions would make them standard, then technically speaking on that basis you think that the major refurbishment coming up on the 156s for Scotrail would make them fit for purpose?

Struggling to see where you're coming from because on one hand you say that the 156s aren't fit for purpose and that there really should be replaced by much better rolling stock (which I agree with). Yet on the other hand, you're saying that Scotrail should stick a 156 coach on the back of a HST set and run it up the WHL as a replacement?

Just curious.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nowt wrong with the Class 156 shell, it's barely any different from a Mk3, indeed the windows are a bit bigger, almost panoramic. Gut it and install a new interior and aircon[1] and it'd be comparable to any Mk3.

[1] Though on scenic lines I personally much prefer fresh air.