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Class 345 progress

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physics34

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I agree, - there can't be that many that it will affect as there are only 3 or 4 toilets on the current DMUs and there would be a constant queues from Reading to Paddington on every train now if some of the wildest prophesies of doom were worth believing.
It's only weeks away from the tirade of hard seats/inadequate armrests/poor window views/no tables/etc., and of course toilets, - from a few here whom you would think were being made to travel the 60+ miles from Shenfield to Reading every working day.

but you always seem to be happy for trains to have minimal facilities for everyone. Agreed it would be daft if you were actually gonna travel that whole line rather than change at Paddington for a fast one to Reading, but seeing as their will be still pretty long journeys (non metro) on these, toilets are surely a must. Its got to be quite common for a long distance traveller to maybe have a bad stomach or something, or an elderly person to have a weak bladder. If the train breaks down for a long time that also can be a good reason to have a loo. If all stations on the route have a toilet avaliable then that softens the blow...a bit.

We all know the seats will be hard...im starting to give up on that argument. Have read something recently about how strict the fire regulations are which basically saying that seats should have minimal padding!! Grim days we live in, especially for heavy people and people with bad backs.
 
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MCR247

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What about those with bad backs that prefer harder upright seats? ;)
 

samuelmorris

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I am aware that hyperbole is a well used tool of the trade in ruk postings, but I am not aware of the extreme prophesies of doom to which you refer.

The issues of the loss of toilets and the proportion of longitudinal seating that have been raised are more to do with the suitability of trains with these features for the longer services outside the central core. Liverpool Street to Shenfield will be a 41 minute journey with Crossrail and Paddington to Reading a 49 minute journey. There will be few people using Crossrail to get to Reading from London as fast trains will do it in a bit less than half the time. The issue is more as to whether what is essentially a Central Line train on steroids is really suitable for travel from, say, Ealing Broadway to Maidenhead or Hayes to Twyford. A certain level of creature comfort is to be expected for such journeys - not simply a box on wheels with standing space. Experience shows that the signalling on the Western has been very flaky for the last few years - the thought of being stuck in the middle of the countryside for a couple of hours with no toilets before help arrives brings tears to the eyes...

I know, I know, come Crossrail the signalling will work perfectly.

As someone that finds it very difficult to use toilets aboard a train that's in motion it doesn't bother me as long as the stations have toilets that are open at sensible hours, even if you have to pay to use them. On the few occasions I've been stuck on a late night train, the level of crowding has been such that I couldn't possibly get to the toilet anyway.

I agree with the sentiment that stations like Maidenhead should have trains with better interiors than a glorified tube line, but many still will - Maidenhead will still have the Oxford services on 387s and/or 800s. My understanding is that these will remain at 2tph and will also stop at West Drayton, Iver, Langley, Slough and Twyford?

That only really leaves Burnham and Taplow outside the TfL zones area without such rolling stock. Doesn't seem too bad to me.
 

EssexGonzo

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But these are glorified tube trains. Few who actually live on the Essex side of the line (what was GE Metro) is lamenting the fact that our local station is now on a tube map! Quite the opposite.

And no-one will be doing the whole Shenfield to Liverpool St journey so lack of toilets should not be an issue. Cross your legs for Brentwood, mind.......

Having said that I will be giving it a try for my commute to Farringdon from Shenfield. In theory, the elapsed time might be very similar for me once crossing LST concourse and waiting for the Circle / Met tube has been factored in. Plus, I get a seat on an air-conditioned train in the rush hour on the way into London. Gotta be worth a try. Once the new core is open, of course.
 

samuelmorris

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Our paths have probably crossed a few times - I've done the exact journey of Farringdon - Shenfield a few hundred times in the evening peak and likewise, I intend to use Crossrail to do this once it opens, partly due to the fact that my local station is Brentwood and by the time Crossrail opens I won't really have the option of car sharing that I do now, and Shenfield station car park is a bit full and expensive to be practical for me.

What I may end up doing is going straight from Brentwood into London in the AM peak since I'll have a seat throughout, but for the PM peak probably use Greater Anglia from Liverpool Street or Stratford (depending on where I'm coming from) to Shenfield and head back in the other direction.
Having travelled from Shenfield a few occasions AM peak, you have to really think hard about whether the 10-15 minutes you save is worth the crush. AM services on that route always seem worse than PM to me. Of course, by the time the core opens, both TOCs should be operating all air-conditioned stock, though it does seem at the moment rather amusingly that the 345s may offer a higher level of comfort!
 

EssexGonzo

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Indeed. I won't mind trading few minutes here and there for a seat, comfort, air con and convenience.

Like you say, I may well use the GA service on the return journey but there'll be the choice of another route at least. And it's a no-brainer for Brentwood.
 

Goldfish62

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but you always seem to be happy for trains to have minimal facilities for everyone. Agreed it would be daft if you were actually gonna travel that whole line rather than change at Paddington for a fast one to Reading, but seeing as their will be still pretty long journeys (non metro) on these, toilets are surely a must. Its got to be quite common for a long distance traveller to maybe have a bad stomach or something, or an elderly person to have a weak bladder. If the train breaks down for a long time that also can be a good reason to have a loo. If all stations on the route have a toilet avaliable then that softens the blow...a bit.

We all know the seats will be hard...im starting to give up on that argument. Have read something recently about how strict the fire regulations are which basically saying that seats should have minimal padding!! Grim days we live in, especially for heavy people and people with bad backs.

I quite agree. Those on these forums who seem to take great delight in trains being as basic as possible and criticise anyone who disagrees need to get out more and see how it's done elsewhere.

I recently travelled on the new Desiros on Vienna S Bahn services. As well as toilets they had comfortable, contoured and reclinable seats with armrests, footrest, tables, and charging points. I'm not saying that new trains should always have all these features, but neither should they be completely dumbed down, which seems to be the fashion in the UK rail industry and, it would seem, among a sizeable number of enthusiasts.
 

AM9

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but you always seem to be happy for trains to have minimal facilities for everyone. Agreed it would be daft if you were actually gonna travel that whole line rather than change at Paddington for a fast one to Reading, but seeing as their will be still pretty long journeys (non metro) on these, toilets are surely a must. Its got to be quite common for a long distance traveller to maybe have a bad stomach or something, or an elderly person to have a weak bladder. If the train breaks down for a long time that also can be a good reason to have a loo. If all stations on the route have a toilet avaliable then that softens the blow...a bit. ...

Much criticism has been aired on here about the comfort levels (usually expresses in terms of personal preferences) offered in new rolling stock. Similarly, it would seem that many lament the passing of a publically owned and operated railway whose role is to provide a public transport service, - to a degree without direct reference to absolute cost.
The position that the railway is now in is somewhat different where through political ambition, rail services are operated at an ever reducing cost to the public purse, the burden now being borne by the passenger's purses. Excluding Network Rail, the operators of the service are now commercial businesses, often blessed with their underlying cynical approach to milking the customer whilst spending as little cash as possible, - they call that profitability. There are sweeteners across the system, sometimes to grab or secure an additional part of the market, or sometimes to ensure that they get buggin's turn at the next round of franchise awards. There are also large parts of the market where the passengers will come whatever rolling stock is running as rail often offers the only practical option for travel. Actual provision of equipment lies somewhere between these two extremes, but is currently drifting towards the austere end of the scale like much of the country's universal public services.
OK, so that's how I personally see the position on rail investment.
Whilst there is the frequent complaint that London gets all the new trains, we all know that London would be seriously crippled if the system failed to provide the service that is needed, so the investment is there to meet that need. This is why the class 345s are the way they are, (just like the class 700s) i.e. mass transport systems. Their prime role is to get the maximum number of passengers safely from their travel origins to their destinations, and of course at the minimum commercial cost for the next three or four decades. Issues such as comfort (which is very subjective anyway) are rightly placed secondary to safety, and for legal equality reasons must also address accessibility, - and for all passengers, established comfort/convenience levels relative to the journeys that the majority of the journeys justify.
So here is the rub. Whilst it will be possible to travel on Crossrail from Shenfield to Reading (c.1 hr 30 mins but may not be a single train), very few passengers are likely to do that. Just as very few passengers ever travel from Epping to West Ruislip on the Central Line (1 hr 26 mins). However, every day millions of commuters make journeys of 30-40 minutes every week into London on tube trains with longtitudonal seats, maximum standing room, no toilets, no charging points and no tables. Most of them just do it, safely and reasonably quickly, so from the top of the government to the passengers who pay for their travel, there is no widespread demand for changes that would inevitably raise costs to the public purse or the user.
In this scenario, the class 345s are designed to be:
safe - no criticism here it seems
fast(er) - than their class 315/165 predecessors
greater capacity - here it starts eating into some people's personal wishes because it involves wide gangways and sliding doors, lontitudonal seating, no toilets and no tables. Air conditioning however improves passenger comfort when the trains crush-loaded.​
This I believe is the way that a fully loaded metro/suburban railway of the future will operate in the UK political and commercial environment. It may not seem good but the alternative mode will get worse in some respects.
 

AM9

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I quite agree. Those on these forums who seem to take great delight in trains being as basic as possible and criticise anyone who disagrees need to get out more and see how it's done elsewhere.

I recently travelled on the new Desiros on Vienna S Bahn services. As well as toilets they had comfortable, contoured and reclinable seats with armrests, footrest, tables, and charging points. I'm not saying that new trains should always have all these features, but neither should they be completely dumbed down, which seems to be the fashion in the UK rail industry and, it would seem, among a sizeable number of enthusiasts.

If you want to cherry pick rolling stock around the world that is better than some of that in the UK, it would be better to compare like with like, e.g. OBB is a state owned, run and funded railway. See my post #463 as to why I think that is relevant.
Does it have the same traffic density? Is the infrastructure the same as the GEML or GWML, apart from being much bigger (UIC C) making high density stock easier to design.
 

samuelmorris

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Indeed, I would argue that complaints about rolling stock being too basic inside should probably be directed at TOCs that aren't running a scaled up tube service with a 36,000 pph throughput serving nine major underground interchange stations in a single city that are all well within the confines of the centre of the tube network. Considering that despite the above you are still getting some transverse seating with armrests, air conditioned vehicles with WiFi, I'm really not sure what else you could expect.

Imagine positioning a full-size disabled toilet inside inside a Victoria line train, and think about the number of people that would otherwise fill that space in the peak, 24 (or in that case 34) times an hour, in each direction. With stations no more than 6-7 minutes apart at any point on the route, the way these trains have been specified is pretty damn good in my opinion.
 

Goldfish62

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If you want to cherry pick rolling stock around the world that is better than some of that in the UK, it would be better to compare like with like, e.g. OBB is a state owned, run and funded railway. See my post #463 as to why I think that is relevant.
Does it have the same traffic density? Is the infrastructure the same as the GEML or GWML, apart from being much bigger (UIC C) making high density stock easier to design.

I deliberately compared like with like. 'S Bahn v Crossrail. OBB v TfL. How much closer would you like? But as I said my post was more to do with generally declining standards of comfort across UK train design, versus the opposite elsewhere, rather than saying every train should have the whole suite of features.

Anyone else wish to deliberately misinterpret my views?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Provided the first few days using the 345s in service go well, how quickly will London Liverpool Street to Shenfield go over to being all services using 345s?
 

AM9

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I deliberately compared like with like. 'S Bahn v Crossrail. OBB v TfL. How much closer would you like? But as I said my post was more to do with generally declining standards of comfort across UK train design, versus the opposite elsewhere, rather than saying every train should have the whole suite of features.

Anyone else wish to deliberately misinterpret my views?

MTR is the TOC for Crossrail, not TfL, so that comparison is correct. MTR won the concession which is an 8-year contract period for a nominal £1.4 billion in a competitive commercial bid. There will be penalties and/or performance adjustments, but I'm sure that neither MTR nor TfL regard the physical luxuries in the passenger area as relevant to payment as:
a) TfL specified and ordered the trains
and
b) MTR expect the trains to run with minimum maintenance for their contract duration. Their customer base is guaranteed so long as they keep the trains running to spec.
Next, as I said before compare the physical and traffic situations between the two examples that you chose.
However, to address your general point, my earlier post also suggested why the general levels of trim in UK trains are being targetted at issues that affect commercial profit rather than individual passenger preferences, especially whilst passenger numbers are high and still rising. Your general comment about "declining standards of comfort" (in your view) should also take that into consideration. I may (personally) agree with some of the views on passenger amenity expressed on this general subject, but when considering the issue, I acknowledge the impact of the more cynical aspects of a commercial business whose customer base is almost guaranteed in a pseudo-competitive environment.
 

AM9

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Provided the first few days using the 345s in service go well, how quickly will London Liverpool Street to Shenfield go over to being all services using 345s?

I imagine that they will be deployed as soon as they are available and tested. That would ensure that most of the bugs can be snagged before they take on the more critical role of running through the core.
Of course they will need somewhere to park the 315s as Ilford sidings will fill rapidly and the GWML storage areas will not be accessible until the track in the core is commissioned.
 

Mordac

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I imagine that they will be deployed as soon as they are available and tested. That would ensure that most of the bugs can be snagged before they take on the more critical role of running through the core.
Of course they will need somewhere to park the 315s as Ilford sidings will fill rapidly and the GWML storage areas will not be accessible until the track in the core is commissioned.

I hear there's some available space in Rotherham. :p
 

simple simon

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I imagine that they will be deployed as soon as they are available and tested. That would ensure that most of the bugs can be snagged before they take on the more critical role of running through the core.
Of course they will need somewhere to park the 315s as Ilford sidings will fill rapidly and the GWML storage areas will not be accessible until the track in the core is commissioned.


They could always travel via the North London Line. Especially since the part of the route that they would need to use is now fully wired.

Simon
 

AM9

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They could always travel via the North London Line. Especially since the part of the route that they would need to use is now fully wired.

Simon

The NLL is pretty full so any plans to add multiple transfers of stock over it may not get support from NR.
 

Ianno87

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They could always travel via the North London Line. Especially since the part of the route that they would need to use is now fully wired.

Simon

Acton Bank isn't.

Only electrified connection is via North Pole depot with reversal on the WLL and again in the depot. Which isn't a viable routeing for several reasons.
 

reddragon

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Acton Bank isn't.

Only electrified connection is via North Pole depot with reversal on the WLL and again in the depot. Which isn't a viable routeing for several reasons.

I has been used in the past so is viable (as confirmed by someone who new a few months back)

The gates which had been closed & route OOU have recently re-opened and look live.

So the route is viable.

The only destination for a 315 is a scrap yard, hauled after stripping for spare or under its own power.
 

Roast Veg

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Overnight movements on the WLL and NLL seem likely for test and gauging purposes, when there's the unit/driver/stabling available.
 

nesw

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Provided the first few days using the 345s in service go well, how quickly will London Liverpool Street to Shenfield go over to being all services using 345s?

I've read that one unit should be commissioned every fortnight so that by December most off peak trains should be 345s.
 
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