Class 345 progress

[simple simon]

The London Evening Standard has an interesting feature about these trains, although it is possible that many people here will already know everything the Standard says!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...the-first-trains-running-in-may-a3526906.html

According to a railgen source the first passenger trains will run on Monday 22nd May. But no timetable information was made public. Also, it will be unit 007 - and not 005 which some sources had thought would be the first to enter passenger service.

I think its best to treat this information with caution, as circumstances might change.

Simon

 

[AM9]

The London Evening Standard has an interesting feature about these trains, although it is possible that many people here will already know everything the Standard says!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...the-first-trains-running-in-may-a3526906.html

According to a railgen source the first passenger trains will run on Monday 22nd May. But no timetable information was made public. Also, it will be unit 007 - and not 005 which some sources had thought would be the first to enter passenger service.

I think its best to treat this information with caution, as circumstances might change.

Simon

According to the ES pages something needs to change. There is this gallery of aerial images showing the new construction along the line:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ing-shape-across-london-a3451056.html#gallery
Slide number 5 has a caption that says:
"The 66 22 metre-long trains will each carry up to 1,500 people."
Now that's what I call high density stock!

 

[simple simon]

According to the ES pages something needs to change. There is this gallery of aerial images showing the new construction along the line:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ing-shape-across-london-a3451056.html#gallery
Slide number 5 has a caption that says:
"The 66 22 metre-long trains will each carry up to 1,500 people."
Now that's what I call high density stock!

Will they travel like sardines in a tin can?

Mind you, if its a newspaper so maybe their facts are somewhat awry! Or maybe they measured the Hornby version?

An update to my earlier message.

I previously said that the train would enter service on the 22nd, now a different message from the same railgen source has quoted the 23rd.

Maybe we will learn more nearer the date.

Here's hoping,

Simon

 

[Techniquest]

That suits me just fine, I won't be able to get down to London until 8th June realistically now. Plenty of time for the 345s to get going and settle into active duties

 

[samuelmorris]

As 315s now and 345s later are the only unit serving my closest station (and one that I will start to use increasingly often later this year), I really want to try and be there for the first day in service, so I'm keeping a close eye on this thread

I managed to pull it off with the 387/3s at Upminster thanks to the efforts of other users here so I greatly appreciate that, here's hoping I get another opportunity to do that here.

After the rather cramped conditions on the 700s and the disappointing but understandable decision to use 3+2 on the 720s, I'm even more looking forward to my air conditioned 2+2 bay seating with armrests, especially in the summer

 

[Uzair]

I previously said that the train would enter service on the 22nd, now a different message from the same railgen source has quoted the 23rd.

Teaching either day. How depressing.

 

[spark001uk]

So, 22nd/23rd, what's the diagram? Is it liv.st to Shenfield/Southend stopper?

 

[MCR247]

Southend?

 

[jopsuk]

So, 22nd/23rd, what's the diagram? Is it liv.st to Shenfield/Southend stopper?

In service they're not going past Shenfield- they've only been going to Southend as the branch is quieter for testing! They're TfL Rail/Elizabeth Line units, not GA

 

[spark001uk]

In service they're not going past Shenfield- they've only been going to Southend as the branch is quieter for testing! They're TfL Rail/Elizabeth Line units, not GA

OK thanks.

 

[321over360]

I wish they were starting this coming Monday morning as will be using the first London bound service to get to work, will be glad to see the back of the 315s though when i saw one pass during one of its test movements, but they do look like really nice trains

 

[samuelmorris]

Honestly I don't think the 315s are that bad after the TfL refresh, the lack of high-back seating is a little annoying and of course with all the short distance stops they're very hot in summer, but for 37 year old trains still in service, they could be far worse!

 

[D365]

... but they do look like really nice trains

At least someone is happy about having new trains

 

[700007]

I've seen the Aventra testing quite a few times (I think it was 002 out that I saw today) and I've spoken with the staff behind introducing it. They have stated the first train will be Tuesday 23rd May, and it will be a special trip that isn't actually on timetable or RTT it seems (the last time I checked).

It will be the 0945 London Liverpool Street to Shenfield working, before sitting at Shenfield for a while whilst the media and figureheads get their share of the new trains (and food as well) and then return closer to the afternoon I think it was. From the 24th May, it will start to form the daily, regular diagram on TfL Rail.

 

[Kite159]

That doesn't surprise me that the first 'public' run will be for invited guests/media.

And I'm guessing it will be a soft launch with one diagram converting from 315 to 345 at a time to allow the units to bed in [and hopefully not break down at Stratford during high peak!]

 

[samuelmorris]

At least someone is happy about having new trains

I don't think that many people are against the 345s are they? I'm certainly looking forward to their introduction.

 

[Techniquest]

I don't think that many people are against the 345s are they? I'm certainly looking forward to their introduction.

I certainly am looking forward to their arrival, if only to find out if they're any good. I'm not expecting much, of course, but there's only one way to find out what they're like!

 

[jopsuk]

I don't think that many people are against the 345s are they? I'm certainly looking forward to their introduction.

I don't think GE metro users are against them, but there's understandable worries about them for Reading slow services

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not sure I see the problem. They'll be 9-car units by the time they're introduced on Reading services, which will undoubtedly be a big capacity increase over the 165s. People commuting from as far away as Reading (and, more likely at least Twyford and Maidenhead) will be able to grab one of the 2+2 seats with armrests, the units will be air conditioned, and at 90mph and being electric they'll be faster than the current DMUs as well. What have they got to lose?

 

[jopsuk]

What have they got to lose?

Toilets!

 

[simple simon]

Air-conditioning will be nice whilst the sample journey times for the new tunnelled section in central London look fantastic.

I just hope that they are not driven like Overground 378's. By which I mean slowly, as if the timetable is padded - and the train driver does not want to get into trouble for arriving early.

I hope the seats will be as comfortable as they were on the Class 306 trains which used to ply the Liverpool Street - Shenfield route.

If I can I will try to see (if not ride on) the media train.

Simon

 

[Uzair]

Toilets!

To be fair, trains on the RER (more or less the Parisian equivalent of Crossrail) in Paris don't have toilets either. Hopefully this will be mitigated with the presence of toilets at core stations.

I just hope that they are not driven like Overground 378's. By which I mean slowly, as if the timetable is padded - and the train driver does not want to get into trouble for arriving early.

The journey times that have been shown on the Crossrail website since its inception through the core indicate the opposite of being driven slowly; in the core anyway. I hope this will be mirrored west of Paddington and east of Whitechapel.

 

[samuelmorris]

Air-conditioning will be nice whilst the sample journey times for the new tunnelled section in central London look fantastic.

I just hope that they are not driven like Overground 378's. By which I mean slowly, as if the timetable is padded - and the train driver does not want to get into trouble for arriving early.

I hope the seats will be as comfortable as they were on the Class 306 trains which used to ply the Liverpool Street - Shenfield route.

If I can I will try to see (if not ride on) the media train.

Simon

With ATO in the core, and a timetable matching, or exceeding the performance of the one from today, I doubt that. With LO there was no real precedent to be concerned about in a lot of areas. I'll be curious to see the actual figures but I'm looking at the 'timetabled' journey times from the website and comparing them to other lines at the moment. Not sure the Elizabeth line will be the fastest but it'll be fairly close.

Edit:

Doing a bit of maths I added up the timetabled travel times (ignoring dwell times which I have assumed to be 30 seconds per stop for the sake of simplicity), extrapolating some figures from other fast tube lines at similar intra-station distances between Stratford and Paddington I get the following:

Elizabeth line: 15m30
Central line (est.): 15m28
Jubilee line (est.): 12m48
So, again ignoring dwell times, that's an average travel speed of 32.7mph, 32.8mph and 39.6mph respectively.
By comparison, the 378s in the East London core from Surrey Quays to Dalston Junction (since it was sort of mentioned) average 22.9mph travel speed (lower of course partly due to the short gaps between stations), so yes the Elizabeth line units will be a lot less leisurely

Also, with regard to the Jubilee line being so far under, with the large 3 mile or so gap between Stratford and Whitechapel, that figure assumes the unit would be able to run at line speed (60mph or so) for the entire gap between acceleration and deceleration, which wouldn't be possible in practice I imagine due to Stepney Green Junction, so perhaps 13m30-14m is more realistic.
Either way, going on the timetable, unless station dwells are estimated to be more than 30 seconds apiece, the Elizabeth line looks like it'll sit between the Jubilee and Central lines in terms of speed, which for full size EMUs really isn't bad. I didn't try comparing the Victoria in the end as there are so few stations with long gaps between them.

 

[jopsuk]

To be fair, trains on the RER (more or less the Parisian equivalent of Crossrail) in Paris don't have toilets either. Hopefully this will be mitigated with the presence of toilets at core stations.

Oh, I don't think it's a major issue, as few will use them as through trains in the outer sections anyway; just pointing out that there has been (on here and elsewhere) disquiet at the idea.

 

[AM9]

Oh, I don't think it's a major issue, as few will use them as through trains in the outer sections anyway; just pointing out that there has been (on here and elsewhere) disquiet at the idea.

I agree, - there can't be that many that it will affect as there are only 3 or 4 toilets on the current DMUs and there would be a constant queues from Reading to Paddington on every train now if some of the wildest prophesies of doom were worth believing.
It's only weeks away from the tirade of hard seats/inadequate armrests/poor window views/no tables/etc., and of course toilets, - from a few here whom you would think were being made to travel the 60+ miles from Shenfield to Reading every working day.

 

[jopsuk]

Well at the very least they're initially replacing units with no toilets, no arm rests, no tables and with rows of seats by the windowless door pockets.

 

[AM9]

Well at the very least they're initially replacing units with no toilets, no arm rests, no tables and with rows of seats by the windowless door pockets.

Yes, but you can't tell a Reading commuter anything!

 

[Fincra5]

Air-conditioning will be nice whilst the sample journey times for the new tunnelled section in central London look fantastic.

I just hope that they are not driven like Overground 378's. By which I mean slowly, as if the timetable is padded - and the train driver does not want to get into trouble for arriving early.

I hope the seats will be as comfortable as they were on the Class 306 trains which used to ply the Liverpool Street - Shenfield route.

If I can I will try to see (if not ride on) the media train.

Simon

To be fair to the North London line (by far the slowest). The actual trackspeed is quite low across most of it! A lot of 30/40mph max!

 

[Kite159]

Yes, but you can't tell a Reading commuter anything!

The Reading - London commuter wouldn't care as they won't be using them from Reading

 

[coppercapped]

I agree, - there can't be that many that it will affect as there are only 3 or 4 toilets on the current DMUs and there would be a constant queues from Reading to Paddington on every train now if some of the wildest prophesies of doom were worth believing.
It's only weeks away from the tirade of hard seats/inadequate armrests/poor window views/no tables/etc., and of course toilets, - from a few here whom you would think were being made to travel the 60+ miles from Shenfield to Reading every working day.

I am aware that hyperbole is a well used tool of the trade in ruk postings, but I am not aware of the extreme prophesies of doom to which you refer.

The issues of the loss of toilets and the proportion of longitudinal seating that have been raised are more to do with the suitability of trains with these features for the longer services outside the central core. Liverpool Street to Shenfield will be a 41 minute journey with Crossrail and Paddington to Reading a 49 minute journey. There will be few people using Crossrail to get to Reading from London as fast trains will do it in a bit less than half the time. The issue is more as to whether what is essentially a Central Line train on steroids is really suitable for travel from, say, Ealing Broadway to Maidenhead or Hayes to Twyford. A certain level of creature comfort is to be expected for such journeys - not simply a box on wheels with standing space. Experience shows that the signalling on the Western has been very flaky for the last few years - the thought of being stuck in the middle of the countryside for a couple of hours with no toilets before help arrives brings tears to the eyes...

I know, I know, come Crossrail the signalling will work perfectly.