First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

I thought Thames travel was a basket case for a few years, Didn't Carousel also benefit from First pulling back in the old Berkshire areas.

Is there a Thames travel/ Carousel day ticket? At lest at first you can get proper tickets that link up different operational areas,

I don't believe that there is much of a link in territory but should Arriva lose interest in Wycombe....

As for Carousel, it would seem to be in good health. The annual report showed an increase in turnover (up 15%) but with profit slightly down.

That might be interpreted as poor performance but fortunately, the narrative helpfully tells us that they are trading very well and that there is a £250k one off insurance claim that they had to fund.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A while back, I think First Group agreed that they would consider offers for ANY of their bus operating divisions - UK or USA. In all probability they've had little interest - either because an obvious purchaser (Stagecoach?) is already too big in much the same area (and would run into competition issues) or, more likely, that First has a number of operations that are simply only borderline/marginally profitable.
Of course, in practice, any group might accept a good offer for parts of their business - indeed, I see that someone has already mentioned BS and Stagecoach London.

I have a house and I'm not looking to sell it nor do I need to. However, if someone came along and offered my £0.5m for it, I'd snatch their hand off - would check with the other half though!!

 

[robertclark125]

I have a house and I'm not looking to sell it nor do I need to. However, if someone came along and offered my £0.5m for it, I'd snatch their hand off - would check with the other half though!!

Check with the other half, to make sure she hasn't already sold it?!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Check with the other half, to make sure she hasn't already sold it?!

Good point! I had noticed she's been spending on more shoes

 

[BradK2017]

A while back, I think First Group agreed that they would consider offers for ANY of their bus operating divisions - UK or USA. In all probability they've had little interest - either because an obvious purchaser (Stagecoach?) is already too big in much the same area (and would run into competition issues) or, more likely, that First has a number of operations that are simply only borderline/marginally profitable.
Of course, in practice, any group might accept a good offer for parts of their business - indeed, I see that someone has already mentioned BS and Stagecoach London.

Even if First would consider offers for any of their divisions, I highly doubt they would ever sell some of their highest earning operations (Leeds & Glasgow spring to mind)

One depot that always seemed to be rumoured for closure/sale every few years a while ago was Halifax (most of the main routes could easily move to Huddersfield/Bradford/Leeds & possibly Oldham depots) leaving the scraps to other companies, but I think First refurbishing Todmorden Outstation and newer buses coming in confirms Halifax is safe.

Also at one point I remember it seemed it was also heavily rumoured first was going to fully chuck in the towel at the Potteries ,in fact I don't think there are many areas served by First that have not been rumoured for closure :roll:

Apart from merging two depots into one in some areas, for the time being I think all the operations are safe

 

[Robertj21a]

Good point! I had noticed she's been spending on more shoes

Perhaps reassuringly, that doesn't prove anything - they all do.......
:roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Also at one point I remember it seemed it was also heavily rumoured first was going to fully chuck in the towel at the Potteries ,in fact I don't think there are many areas served by First that have not been rumoured for closure :roll:

Apart from merging two depots into one in some areas, for the time being I think all the operations are safe

Indeed and some that weren't rumoured (London, Borders) were sold.

There will be further trimming in networks and perhaps the odd bit of consolidation as you say where they can but that is probably fair comment for most of the large groups!

 

[DragonEast]

Perhaps just for a change we should discuss how First can improve their quality of service in their operations rather than just what they can get rid of or, even less likely, acquire. It's not entirely a game of Monopoly, with just new buses v old and disposals v acquisitions, good game though it is.

For starters, I'm not sure I understand why First seem to prefer just putting more buses on longer urban routes which seem to suffer more from the impact of congestion (more of it) than perhaps the alternative of trying shorter routes (as they have the extra buses anyway, or they wouldn't be putting more of them on in the first place), which might run more reliably without the multiple congestion hotspots. It's not the same everywhere, I know; it might for instance depend on whether an urban area is compact, or spread out giving the routes more recovery time. They still look to me to be rather stick-in-the-mud. A bit more imagination and willingness to try things may not come amiss, perhaps? More reliability might help to gain more passengers, which just might possibly help the financial viability. And perhaps their drivers might be in better mood, if they have a job they can do rather than one which, however hard they try, they can't (or at least not without ever-regulating management on their back), leaving them a bit of time for the passengers without always looking over their shoulder. Or is that too obvious for the clever clogs?

 

[vicbury]

Perhaps just for a change we should discuss how First can improve their quality of service in their operations rather than just what they can get rid of or, even less likely, acquire. It's not entirely a game of Monopoly, with just new buses v old and disposals v acquisitions, good game though it is.

For starters, I'm not sure I understand why First seem to prefer just putting more buses on longer urban routes which seem to suffer more from the impact of congestion (more of it) than perhaps the alternative of trying shorter routes (as they have the extra buses anyway, or they wouldn't be putting more of them on in the first place), which might run more reliably without the multiple congestion hotspots. It's not the same everywhere, I know; it might for instance depend on whether an urban area is compact, or spread out giving the routes more recovery time. They still look to me to be rather stick-in-the-mud. A bit more imagination and willingness to try things may not come amiss, perhaps? More reliability might help to gain more passengers, which just might possibly help the financial viability. And perhaps their drivers might be in better mood, if they have a job they can do rather than one which, however hard they try, they can't (or at least not without ever-regulating management on their back), leaving them a bit of time for the passengers without always looking over their shoulder. Or is that too obvious for the clever clogs?

Not all of the management changes have been bad, from a passenger's point of view. For example, First drivers tend to be a lot more smooth than other operators' - this could be due to GreenRoad, which monitors acceleration and braking profiles.

CCTV can work in a driver's favour, particularly in the event of a collision.

Finally, since the widespread adoption of real time information, and its associated vehicle tracking, incidents of buses skipping parts of routes are far fewer.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Perhaps just for a change we should discuss how First can improve their quality of service in their operations rather than just what they can get rid of or, even less likely, acquire. It's not entirely a game of Monopoly, with just new buses v old and disposals v acquisitions, good game though it is.

For starters, I'm not sure I understand why First seem to prefer just putting more buses on longer urban routes which seem to suffer more from the impact of congestion (more of it) than perhaps the alternative of trying shorter routes (as they have the extra buses anyway, or they wouldn't be putting more of them on in the first place), which might run more reliably without the multiple congestion hotspots. It's not the same everywhere, I know; it might for instance depend on whether an urban area is compact, or spread out giving the routes more recovery time. They still look to me to be rather stick-in-the-mud. A bit more imagination and willingness to try things may not come amiss, perhaps? More reliability might help to gain more passengers, which just might possibly help the financial viability. And perhaps their drivers might be in better mood, if they have a job they can do rather than one which, however hard they try, they can't (or at least not without ever-regulating management on their back), leaving them a bit of time for the passengers without always looking over their shoulder. Or is that too obvious for the clever clogs?

You mean like;
operating the advertised service,
with buses clean internally and externally,
with buses maintained to a high standard internally and externally i.e. no dented panels flapping around, bald seat moqeutte and plastic trim held in place by rivets and large washers?

Then you could;
improve frequencies,
improve network density,
extend into evening operation,
extend into Sunday operation,
examine where those people that catch the bus to work/college want to go when not going to work/college and meet that need.

First seems convinced that price (fare paid) is everything, and that the only people who travel by bus want to pay as little as possible and are not concerned with the consequences that has on service levels.

Professor John Hibbs used to refer to 'Sainsbury' buses and 'Tesco' buses serving different sectors of the market - when Sainsbury was upmarket and Tesco 'piled it high and sold it cheap'. First are aiming somewhere below 99p world.

Locally, First potteries have very convoluted diagrams which take several hours to get back to where they started. Try a 4, followed by a 4A/3, followed by a 3, then a 3/4A, then back to the orginal 4. Commence 0915, back to service 4 at 1615. Not just routes merged into one long route, but one built onto another, onto another. A recipe for extended, non-recoverable disruption. But it keeps it simple for the managers. We sent them all out at 0600, and then there is nothing we can do until tomorrow and start afresh.

 

[Robertj21a]

You mean like;
operating the advertised service,
with buses clean internally and externally,
with buses maintained to a high standard internally and externally i.e. no dented panels flapping around, bald seat moqeutte and plastic trim held in place by rivets and large washers?

Then you could;
improve frequencies,
improve network density,
extend into evening operation,
extend into Sunday operation,
examine where those people that catch the bus to work/college want to go when not going to work/college and meet that need.

First seems convinced that price (fare paid) is everything, and that the only people who travel by bus want to pay as little as possible and are not concerned with the consequences that has on service levels.

Professor John Hibbs used to refer to 'Sainsbury' buses and 'Tesco' buses serving different sectors of the market - when Sainsbury was upmarket and Tesco 'piled it high and sold it cheap'. First are aiming somewhere below 99p world.

Locally, First potteries have very convoluted diagrams which take several hours to get back to where they started. Try a 4, followed by a 4A/3, followed by a 3, then a 3/4A, then back to the orginal 4. Commence 0915, back to service 4 at 1615. Not just routes merged into one long route, but one built onto another, onto another. A recipe for extended, non-recoverable disruption. But it keeps it simple for the managers. We sent them all out at 0600, and then there is nothing we can do until tomorrow and start afresh.

I noted a 'Readers Letter' in the latest issue of 'Buses' magazine that also portrayed First Potteries in a less than wonderful light.

 

[overthewater]

I dont think Pottiries should go, It could be worse, Rota could buy it or worse centrebus.

 

[Robertj21a]

I dont think Pottiries should go, It could be worse, Rota could buy it or worse centrebus.

A rather strange comment. Centrebus/High Peak runs a very professional operation across the Midlands - far better, in my view, that many others.

 

[overthewater]

A rather strange comment. Centrebus/High Peak runs a very professional operation across the Midlands - far better, in my view, that many others.

I think your'll find its more to do with High peak, travel east and south and I bet its not the same level.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think your'll find its more to do with High peak, travel east and south and I bet its not the same level.

Can't agree at all. What are you basing your comments on ?

 

[DragonEast]

You mean like; . . .
.

Not quite. Like everyone else, First have resource issues and ops do vary from place to place. It's part of their history. But, like humans, it's not just how affluent you are but how smart you are (and I don't mean appearance, even a new uniform).

First, to me, just don't seem smart. I sometimes wonder if the bits, even within an individual opco, actually are on speaking terms with each other. Locally First seem to manage to run an expensive (both fares and cost) and poor quality service. It's not because they're not trying, they are, in every sense of the term, and things have improved with the resources and effort they've put in, but not by as much as it should have. So the result of all the tweaking and initiatives (constant) is a patchwork quilt, neat and threadbare at the same time; and like children perhaps, some bits when they are good are very good, and a heck of a lot of it seems to think that when it's bad it's better. The result is passengers who are very confused, they never know which face First are going to show on the day. To some extent it's the same everywhere, but First seem to make some sort of virtue out of it.

To me it seems dysfunctional, as though the local head office (who are trying) just throw so much at the depots that they can't cope, and everyone is in their bunker, perhaps because it's the only way they can cope. People need to be singing from the same hymn sheet, and they aren't. And it really has very little to do with resources, if you want it in a phrase, it's bad management. It's like a nagged kid, they rarely grow up into mature adults quickly, because they are never given the opportunity. Sadly, it even gets to the state where one can feel that putting resources, or the effort, in is a waste of time. Anyone else know the feeling?

 

[Polo Mint]

First Bus still have an ageing fleet compared to Stagecoach and other large groups. It wouldn't be too bad if old buses were refurbished and repainted, but they are often a mess and an uncomfortable experience. I'm not sure whether reducing the fleet age would have an impact on profitability, but it would improve the passenger experience.

 

[Robertj21a]

First Bus still have an ageing fleet compared to Stagecoach and other large groups. It wouldn't be too bad if old buses were refurbished and repainted, but they are often a mess and an uncomfortable experience. I'm not sure whether reducing the fleet age would have an impact on profitability, but it would improve the passenger experience.

If I recall correctly, they extended their depreciation period for buses from 15 to 17 years recently.

 

[overthewater]

Can't agree at all. What are you basing your comments on ?

From what I've read around the web and pics, Have their upped there game?

Can't agree at all. What are you basing your comments on ?

Again this would not be a problem if at 8/9 years old there refurbished, I dont mind older stock as long as there keep tidy.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I noted a 'Readers Letter' in the latest issue of 'Buses' magazine that also portrayed First Potteries in a less than wonderful light.

It wasn't me!

To be quite fair, they are better than they were. It's just that there is 33% less of them (buses on the road) than there were just 3 years ago and it is becoming rather difficult to do anything other than a simple trip into town and back for daytime shopping. It does not bode well for the future as the existing passenger base dies and is not replaced.

There remains an absence of customer focus somewhere within the management structure. Recently, the validity of the First Potteries Day Ticket was revised to exclude Leek, which went back to requiring the more expensive Network Ticket. Fair enough, businesses can change their prices, product ranges etc, but the change was not widely promoted. Some cheap leaflets in the Hanley enquiry office, similar in the newsagents on Leek Bus Station, possibly some notices on the buses for that particular route (18). But, nothing until after the event on their website (and that required a good poke from outside the company). No mention alongside the list of service changes implemented on the same date. A passenger travelling from elsewhere on their network, and then onto Leek would have had no idea of the change and the need to buy a different ticket. People don't like being treated in such a way. It leaves a bad taste that you have been 'had' by some 'shyster'. Would it have been that difficult to tell people in advance?

 

[DragonEast]

There remains an absence of customer focus somewhere within the management structure.

Definitely agree. A good minor example recently. A number of local services are having their frequencies reduced "for the summer". There was a question passengers were asking about rumours that one of them was being scrapped. The answer which cs quoted from the depot was "no plans", but no mention of the reduction of the imminent reduction in frequency, found elsewhere on their website. It was like, and it happens often, "we answered the question you asked, it's not our job to volunteer any more information even if it might be helpful". Childish, or 1970s. Similarly what seems like the matters of hot debate within the local opco, whether you should pick up passengers who don't stick their arm out in the right way as all stops are request stops, and god help the passengers who get it wrong with their fare as the driver huffs and puffs or stares at you, blankly. For anyone who doesn't travel regularly (and there are few enough of them) how do they know? (A brilliant answer from one driver though, when a passenger tendered the wrong fare being unaware of a price increase and reported being met with just a blank stare: "Do you expect me to pay you?") The drivers can't mind read, OK, but the passengers can, apparently. Perhaps in their cs training the depot played them recordings of 1970s Sid James and they thought it was a role model. (Or, perhaps more likely, that the management are a joke).

Similarly I know cs is answered nationally, but compare it to Arriva or Stagecoach which do the same, and the others look more intelligent. Often, it depends of course on the information they're given.

Yep they talk about their customer care training, and preface every piece of PR with that bit about "leading transport company" (leading what?), and even managed to get a supremely good example into the local press recently. But it's not just a "been there, done that", you have to build on it. It doesn't follow through. Other companies seem to manage it better. That being said First locally are extending their early evening services where other companies are cutting back. Whether anyone notices, though . . . And a couple of times diversion notices appeared on all local bus stops for the first time, ever. Though they did stay up for weeks afterwards.

 

[83G/84D]

On a recent visit to Essex I had a look at the First fleet. The appearance of most buses was poor with plenty of dents and scrapes. Quite a few were dirty externally and the staff were scruffy and surly on the buses I rode on.
To be fair the staff the Colchester office were very happy and helpful but my overall impression was not good.

Sorry for going slightly off topic.

 

[DragonEast]

On a recent visit to Essex I had a look at the First fleet. The appearance of most buses was poor with plenty of dents and scrapes. Quite a few were dirty externally and the staff were scruffy and surly on the buses I rode on.
To be fair the staff the Colchester office were very happy and helpful but my overall impression was not good.

Sorry for going slightly off topic.

That illustrates the point nicely. Colchester has a new multi-million pound depot (compared to the three ancient ones they had previously), has ongoing investment including a couple of dozen new buses last year, and have plenty of passengers with a near monopoly on serving the uni and the Tendring peninsula which has less than average incomes and lower car ownership, and a retiree profile. A decent garrison and uni town, very socially minded, and some nice interurban runs. Should be the envy of everywhere else. So what's their excuse? (The excuse for exterior cleanliness: the new, outside, bus washes freeze up in winter, a typical bit of First thoughlessness and cheese-pairing, perhaps?). I gather neighbours First Norwich really took an active interest in their depot redevelopment.

The Travel shops are good. So they can do it. Not the operational side though, apparently. The First quandry, perhaps. According to the local OpCo their priority over the last couple of years has been the appearance of their buses and staff, and the reliability . . . ??? OK we understand about the reliability; but the rest of it seems to have had the opposite effect. Look across the border at First Ipswich which has to rely on refurbs and paint jobs (and has more competition and a less bus friendly environment, at least for First) and it's a completely different story. Perhaps they've just had to try harder. Weird.

 

[Polo Mint]

Attention to detail has always been a problem with First. In my opinion they are better than Stagecoach in Manchester and are far more reliable, but have an older fleet, paint peeling off vehicles and sometimes tatty seats.

I wonder whether they should have gone with local identities, like Buses of Somerset, in other areas where they had a bad reputation. Would a fresh non-First brand identity have lured back disgruntled passengers?

 

[overthewater]

Thats a hard question, The only other company to get rebrand was First Scotland East. But there kept the First name but its all become Midland bluebird with its two tone blue. There got new buses etc but its still trying to gut out the problems.

There no point in a rebrand if the same problems remain.

 

[DragonEast]

I don't know, but perhaps have a theory. It might be complete balderdash. There are perhaps two sorts of managers, those who have worked their way up and are very hands on, will get their hands dirty, and who often know what they expect and make sure everyone knows it (- think Stagecoach, at least by their no-nonsense reputation. I thought their bosses used to make it a regular occurrence to cut through the bureaucracy and do the rounds of the depots?); and the more management-school who are happier operating through the bureaucracy with their line managers, the memorandum, and the lecture theatre. As well as their small size, it might too account for the success of many small independents.

Drivers are notoriously difficult; think lorry, white van or taxi drivers; or even your normal car driver. They're quite independent minded, often self-employed. Don't take orders easily, especially from someone they don't respect, even officialdom, or where they feel they have more knowledge. And has engineering become the cinderella more than a craft too? What are drivers backgrounds? Often perhaps in that sort of work or ex-military. A sort of counter canteen-culture develops.

Could that be part of the problem, and account for some at least of the differences in OpCo performance?

I suspect anyway things are changing with modern education being much more orderly with the national curriculum, so younger drivers are much happier taking orders. But it'll take much longer for their older colleagues to drop out of the workforce.

 

[90sWereBetter]

First Bus still have an ageing fleet compared to Stagecoach and other large groups. It wouldn't be too bad if old buses were refurbished and repainted, but they are often a mess and an uncomfortable experience. I'm not sure whether reducing the fleet age would have an impact on profitability, but it would improve the passenger experience.

Would this be the same Stagecoach that was still running a sizeable quantity of Olympians in normal service up until the last month of 2016?

Stones, glass houses, etc

 

[KendalKing]

Would this be the same Stagecoach that was still running a sizeable quantity of Olympians in normal service up until the last month of 2016?

Stones, glass houses, etc

Stagecoach still had Olympians in normal every day service, in February this year.

 

[DragonEast]

Stagecoach still had Olympians in normal every day service, in February this year.

I don't mind travelling on Olympians. Quite comfortable and reliable, and better (less rattly) than some modern vehicles. Streetdecks anyone? Of course I'm not disabled.

 

[Robertj21a]

Stagecoach still had Olympians in normal every day service, in February this year.

But only a few odd examples, not a massive number.