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Van Hits Pedestrians near Finsbury Park Mosque

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sheeldz

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What's the chance that the bloke in question, who mowed down these Muslims, is an athiest?

Well, without knowing the exact location of the person's residence, let's take the census and see what are the chances?

According to the 2011 Census (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom)...

Christianity: 59.5%
No Religion: 25.7%
Not Stated: 7.2%

So there is a 25.7% chance he is ascribed to no religion, or 32.9% if we include Not Stated. Thusly, there is a 67.1% chance he ascribes to a religion.

But, what was your point?
 
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Bromley boy

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59% of the population identify as "Christian".

Doesn't sound that disparate to me.

I wonder how accurate figures from the census are. The below article suggests that aetheists now outnumber Christians in much of the UK.

The proportion of the population who identify in NatCen’s British Social Attitudes survey as having no religion, referred to as “nones”, reached 48.5% in 2014, outnumbering the 43.8% who define themselves as Christian – Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations. In 2011 the BSA survey found 46% identified as having no religion.

What percentage of the Islamic community identifies as Muslim? 100%, I imagine.

Hence the distinction I drew between the two groups.
 

najaB

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It is an interesting question.

However I'd argue that terrorism is a perfectly rational. It's calculated to advance a particular cause or objective in the most bloody and dramatic way possible.
You raise a good point about ETA, though is nationalism religion by another name? I bow to your logic.
 

radamfi

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talkRADIO have an excellent, light-hearted and often silly show at 1pm on weekdays presented by Jon Holmes. For the last few terrorist attacks and the tower block fire Jon suspended normal programming in favour of a serious show.

Today, Jon is doing a normal light-hearted show.
 

Bromley boy

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You raise a good point about ETA, though is nationalism religion by another name? I bow to your logic.

I guess that depends on your definition of religion, which is a whole other discussion!

I'd imagine most people would probably consider that "religion" would require some component of the belief in/worship of a higher power or supernatural deity of some kind.

Nationalism, on the other hand, can be confined to simply identifying with a particular place or group from a particular place.
 

Tetchytyke

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You raise a good point about ETA, though is nationalism religion by another name?

It's an interesting one. ETA is probably more geopolitical than religious.

But if we look at other terrorist groups, such as the LTTE or Baddar Khalsa, the religious and national identity are pretty closely linked.
 

najaB

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Breaking news alert on the BBC website - the perpetrator has been further arrested for "commission, preparation or instigation of terrorism".

So it *is* being treated as terrorism, unlike recent incidents in the USA which involved majority perpetrators.
 

Jonny

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It's an interesting one. ETA is probably more geopolitical than religious.

But if we look at other terrorist groups, such as the LTTE or Baddar Khalsa, the religious and national identity are pretty closely linked.

It was a similar issue with The Troubles in Northern Ireland; that was between Irish Republicans (who wanted a United Ireland, as a republic) and various Unionist/Loyalist factions (who wanted to keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK). They just also happened to be divided along religious lines.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Well, without knowing the exact location of the person's residence, let's take the census and see what are the chances?

According to the 2011 Census (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom)...


So there is a 25.7% chance he is ascribed to no religion, or 32.9% if we include Not Stated. Thusly, there is a 67.1% chance he ascribes to a religion.

But, what was your point?

My point was to state that whatever the blokes motives were, there is a chance that he may be an athiest as not everyone is religious. It was also reported on the BBC that the bloke was from Cardiff, so could this be some Welshman who has clearly had enough of what was going on and decided to react at the worse possible time?
 

Busaholic

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My point was to state that whatever the blokes motives were, there is a chance that he may be an athiest as not everyone is religious. It was also reported on the BBC that the bloke was from Cardiff, so could this be some Welshman who has clearly had enough of what was going on and decided to react at the worse possible time?

Lives in Cardiff, but originally from Weston-Super-Mare, apparently. His family have put out a statement that they knew he was troubled, but had no inkling he was racist.
 

RichmondCommu

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My point was to state that whatever the blokes motives were, there is a chance that he may be an athiest as not everyone is religious. It was also reported on the BBC that the bloke was from Cardiff, so could this be some Welshman who has clearly had enough of what was going on and decided to react at the worse possible time?

Why is it the "worst possible time"? In all fairness I suspect what happened in Manchester and London this year has got nothing to do with it; the bloke who did this is racist and hates none whites. The fact that he targeted Muslims is just an excuse for racist violence.

I would be astonished if the bloke hasn't got links to either the BNP, Britian First or the EDL or maybe all three.
 

GusB

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My point was to state that whatever the blokes motives were, there is a chance that he may be an athiest as not everyone is religious. It was also reported on the BBC that the bloke was from Cardiff, so could this be some Welshman who has clearly had enough of what was going on and decided to react at the worse possible time?

Who gives a monkey's about whether he was religious or not? The guy mowed people down on the pavement. Whether this act was intentional or not I would prefer to leave it to a court to decide. And what does him being Welsh have to do with it?

Wind yer neck in.
 
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RichmondCommu

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All that will happen is that the attacker will be universally condemned, dismissed as a lunatic, and anyone who dares say "well, let's look at what motivated him and see if we should change or rethink our policy" will be silenced and called a racist Islamophobe.

Lets face facts the bloke is a racist who is using what happened this year as an excuse. The BNP / National Front were very active way before we started seeing suicide bombers killing people in the name of Islam.

Please don't give this racist ******* any excuses. He is just a racist *******.
 

RichmondCommu

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Instead, we have a multicultural policy where public money is spent effectively propping up self-proclaimed "community leaders", regardless of whether those people are qualified to represent their community in the way mainstream political discourse would accept.

Should ethnic minorities not have community leaders? The same community leaders who have done more to help the victims of the Glenfell disaster than the local borough council?
 

cjmillsnun

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Should ethnic minorities not have community leaders? The same community leaders who have done more to help the victims of the Glenfell disaster than the local borough council?

Well said. And every community group has leaders. Local Neighbourhood watch? has a leader, resident's association? a leader. Local Church congregation? Yup, the vicar...
 

najaB

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Should ethnic minorities not have community leaders? The same community leaders who have done more to help the victims of the Glenfell disaster than the local borough council?
I think the comment was speaking to the quality of some of the people who have received government money. Most of them are upstanding representative of their communities, a few... well less so.
 

Bromley boy

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Who gives a monkey's about whether he was religious or not? The guy mowed people down on the pavement. Whether this act was intentional or not I would prefer to leave it to a court to decide. And what does him being Welsh have to do with it?

Wind yer neck in.

I think his ranting about wishing to kill Muslims, after having driven a van into a group of people who were obviously Muslim by their dress and the fact they had just spilled out of a mosque, is strongly suggestive of intent.

According to some reports I've seen the chap that died may have died from natural causes. Apparently he collapsed for reasons unconnected to the attack, a group gathered around him and the van was then driven into this group.

And agreed, I'm not sure where the post you replied to was going in terms of the reference to the fact the perpetrator may or may not be Welsh. What on earth does it matter?
 
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AlterEgo

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Should ethnic minorities not have community leaders? The same community leaders who have done more to help the victims of the Glenfell disaster than the local borough council?

Every community has leaders. My comment was about the quality and legitimacy of some of the leaders that receive public funding - it was clearly stated in the quote!

The other aspect which I'll repeat is that we are more than happy for sub groups like the Islamic community to choose leaders in a way which is completely contrary to our values. Islamic community leaders are almost always men, and almost never women. They're definitely never LGBT. Now, my belief is a community can choose whoever it wants to be their leader/s, but I think that throwing public money at it is wrongheaded; if a "white" community had the same approach to picking leaders then we'd be absolutely more critical of their standards - contrast our hand wringing and defence of "ethnic community leaders" with how we treat white working class community leaders, who get a much stricter standard applied to them. Look at how long it took Mo Ansar to get found out.

It's this which is the sticking point of multiculturalism - the double standards, and the patronising way in which we apply much lower standards of conduct to leadership of minority communities compared to white, and particularly working class communities. You can look at how the Anglican Church community is spotlighted as an example - constantly being informed they should pick leaders more in line with contemporary values, being told that much of their laity are backwards, and generally being hassled to improve their standards. Or have a look at Ulster loyalist communities, who are relentlessly pilloried - in many ways, rightly so, too - but in a way which we would deem grossly unacceptable to do to a Muslim community.
 
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AlterEgo

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Lets face facts the bloke is a racist who is using what happened this year as an excuse. The BNP / National Front were very active way before we started seeing suicide bombers killing people in the name of Islam.

Please don't give this racist ******* any excuses. He is just a racist *******.

That's one way of looking at it.

You could use the same logic to say that some violent Muslims have always liked killing infidels, but that would probably be deemed a bit inarticulate or insensitive - and certainly not telling the whole story! Often, we have discussions about the Prevent strategy or foreign policy and think about how our actions as a society may prevent or encourage Islamic terror.

I don't think we will, as a society, be giving the same treatment to terror by the far right, and I think that's intellectually duplicitous.
 

Senex

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Every community has leaders. My comment was about the quality and legitimacy of some of the leaders that receive public funding - it was clearly stated in the quote!

The other aspect which I'll repeat is that we are more than happy for sub groups like the Islamic community to choose leaders in a way which is completely contrary to our values. Islamic community leaders are almost always men, and almost never women. They're definitely never LGBT. Now, my belief is a community can choose whoever it wants to be their leader/s, but I think that throwing public money at it is wrongheaded; if a "white" community had the same approach to picking leaders then we'd be absolutely more critical of their standards - contrast our hand wringing and defence of "ethnic community leaders" with how we treat white working class community leaders, who get a much stricter standard applied to them. Look at how long it took Mo Ansar to get found out.

It's this which is the sticking point of multiculturalism - the double standards, and the patronising way in which we apply much lower standards of conduct to leadership of minority communities compared to white, and particularly working class communities. You can look at how the Anglican Church community is spotlighted as an example - constantly being informed they should pick leaders more in line with contemporary values, being told that much of their laity are backwards, and generally being hassled to improve their standards. Or have a look at Ulster loyalist communities, who are relentlessly pilloried - in many ways, rightly so, too - but in a way which we would deem grossly unacceptable to do to a Muslim community.
Very well said. It is very much a matter of having the same standards across the board.

I do think there is also a question about trying to make sure that local "democracy" works very much better and involves very many more people than it does rather than having various self-designated groups or groups designated by a single characteristic such as race or religion feeling that they have to set up systems of representation of their own -- or have a system "emerge" by some means less than democratic.
 

Bromley boy

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That's one way of looking at it.

You could use the same logic to say that some violent Muslims have always liked killing infidels, but that would probably be deemed a bit inarticulate or insensitive - and certainly not telling the whole story! Often, we have discussions about the Prevent strategy or foreign policy and think about how our actions as a society may prevent or encourage Islamic terror.

I don't think we will, as a society, be giving the same treatment to terror by the far right, and I think that's intellectually duplicitous.

Agreed, sadly very true.
 

Tetchytyke

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And what does him being Welsh have to do with it?

He's a Welshman who has committed a terrorist attack. Why aren't the Welsh leaders on TV denouncing him? Where are the pillars of the Welsh community standing up and saying that they disagree with terrorism? The Welsh have gone awfully quiet about it. The Welsh must have known about him, why didn't they report him to the authorities?

The Welsh must agree with him. Therefore we need to clamp down on the Welsh. Intern them without trial. Take their passports off them.
 

Tetchytyke

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It's this which is the sticking point of multiculturalism - the double standards, and the patronising way in which we apply much lower standards of conduct to leadership of minority communities compared to white, and particularly working class communities.

It isn't just about Islam, you know.

Look at what's happening in the Jewish community. A senior rabbi came out last week with the novel idea that homosexuality and feminism aren't bad things, and why can't we just get on with each other. There's absolute hell on. Everyone else is claiming he should be kicked out of the religion.

But if you dare to criticise their community for reacting like that then you're anti-Semitic.
 

Bromley boy

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He's a Welshman who has committed a terrorist attack. Why aren't the Welsh leaders on TV denouncing him? Where are the pillars of the Welsh community standing up and saying that they disagree with terrorism? The Welsh have gone awfully quiet about it. The Welsh must have known about him, why didn't they report him to the authorities?

The Welsh must agree with him. Therefore we need to clamp down on the Welsh. Intern them without trial. Take their passports off them.

I'm not sure he is actually Welsh but, even if he is, he's a Welshman who happens to have committed a terrorist attack. He hasn't committed said attack in the name of Welshness.

EDIT: I read the post GusB was reponding to as a dig aimed at the Welsh, nothing to do with the issues being discussed here. I may be wrong, of course.
 
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RichmondCommu

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That's one way of looking at it.

You could use the same logic to say that some violent Muslims have always liked killing infidels, but that would probably be deemed a bit inarticulate or insensitive - and certainly not telling the whole story! Often, we have discussions about the Prevent strategy or foreign policy and think about how our actions as a society may prevent or encourage Islamic terror.

I don't think we will, as a society, be giving the same treatment to terror by the far right, and I think that's intellectually duplicitous.

The far right are simply looking for excuses to attack none whites and with Muslims they have a ready made excuse. They couldn't careless whats happening in the Middle East; a lot of them are too thick to even know where it is.

The far right hate blacks, Hindus and Sikhs as much as they hate Muslims, the only difference being they haven't got a ready excuse to get after them.
 

AlterEgo

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The far right are simply looking for excuses to attack none whites and with Muslims they have a ready made excuse. They couldn't careless whats happening in the Middle East; a lot of them are too thick to even know where it is.

The far right hate blacks, Hindus and Sikhs as much as they hate Muslims, the only difference being they haven't got a ready excuse to get after them.

I'm sure that is true, and I'm also sure that militant Islam is similarly nihilistic.

But we won't, as a society, devote the same brain space, or parliamentary time, or column inches to wondering why there's a rise in the white far right, as we do with wondering how to solve the problem of Islamic extremism.
 

RichmondCommu

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Every community has leaders. My comment was about the quality and legitimacy of some of the leaders that receive public funding - it was clearly stated in the quote!

The other aspect which I'll repeat is that we are more than happy for sub groups like the Islamic community to choose leaders in a way which is completely contrary to our values. Islamic community leaders are almost always men, and almost never women. They're definitely never LGBT. Now, my belief is a community can choose whoever it wants to be their leader/s, but I think that throwing public money at it is wrongheaded; if a "white" community had the same approach to picking leaders then we'd be absolutely more critical of their standards - contrast our hand wringing and defence of "ethnic community leaders" with how we treat white working class community leaders, who get a much stricter standard applied to them. Look at how long it took Mo Ansar to get found out.

It's this which is the sticking point of multiculturalism - the double standards, and the patronising way in which we apply much lower standards of conduct to leadership of minority communities compared to white, and particularly working class communities. You can look at how the Anglican Church community is spotlighted as an example - constantly being informed they should pick leaders more in line with contemporary values, being told that much of their laity are backwards, and generally being hassled to improve their standards. Or have a look at Ulster loyalist communities, who are relentlessly pilloried - in many ways, rightly so, too - but in a way which we would deem grossly unacceptable to do to a Muslim community.

Can you think of any community groups which solely represent white people and white working class people?
 

RichmondCommu

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I'm sure that is true, and I'm also sure that militant Islam is similarly nihilistic.

But we won't, as a society, devote the same brain space, or parliamentary time, or column inches to wondering why there's a rise in the white far right, as we do with wondering how to solve the problem of Islamic extremism.

There has always been racist element in this country. Indeed there was in my family until I (a white bloke) started going out with an Asian girl (now my wife) at University. However over the years my uncles attitude has completely changed. However in the vast majority of cases if someone wants to be racist it s very difficult to change that mindset as it's what their family think and what many of their friends think. There have always racists with a penchant for violence but up until 12 years a go they didn't have much of an excuse to go and attack Muslims. Why should we waste our precious time with these racist scum bags; they won't change no matter what we do or say.

Going back to my own experiences a lot of the friends that I had at school (I grew up in a racist village) have not talked to me for 30 years because I met an Asian. If it wasn't for the fact that they don't want to bring shame on their precious family's they too would be joining EDL marches.
 
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