Southern Class 455 future

[absolutelymilk]

The Southern 455s, which were built in 1982-84 are now getting on for 35 years old. Are there any plans to replace them? (I'm assuming the SWT ones are being replaced in the new franchise)

 

[mic505]

Around half will be retained for peaks only from 2018, once the 700s are in full swing on some Southern routes, alongside 377s. Cannot find a source stating whether they are to be scrapped, cascaded or PRM modified by 2020. Dunno what's happening to the other 23, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

TSGN insiders have previously said there will be no reductions in fleet size, just that they will not be used as much as today. As you say there are no replacement plans.

 

[physics34]

...and over recent weeks since the SWT franchise decision, its rumoured that the newer and retractioned class 455/9s or even class 707s could replace them early

 

[Class455]

I've been debating myself on the future of my favourite Class in the Southern fleet.
They are starting to get PRM modified, bit by bit. Has anyone seen that 455 817 now has LED lights in the interior? They plan to do this to the full fleet. As with the rest of the modifications that need to be done, only minor work is needed to make them comply with PRM requirements, all they need is new door alarms and a call for aid button. The 313's are being done so once these are all complete I'd presume the 455's would follow, these being retained until 2021
If only half the sets are being used from 2018, they could rotate them in and out of use or use the other sets to create an all 8 car Metro service. If Southern wanted to unify their Metro fleet, they could lease the remaining 27 455/8's (ex SWT) and the 456's till the end of the franchise to create an 8/10 car railway on the Metro routes. This could cascade some 377's to Southeastern who are in need of extra stock. Think they'll send the 707's though to Southeastern, unless they want to replace the Networkers in the next franchise.

I hope they don't however end up like the 508's in 2018 and the remaining sets go into store until 2021

 

[MatthewRead]

I've been debating myself on the future of my favourite Class in the Southern fleet.
They are starting to get PRM modified, bit by bit. Has anyone seen that 455 817 now has LED lights in the interior? They plan to do this to the full fleet. As with the rest of the modifications that need to be done, only minor work is needed to make them comply with PRM requirements, all they need is new door alarms and a call for aid button. The 313's are being done so once these are all complete I'd presume the 455's would follow, these being retained until 2021
If only half the sets are being used from 2018, they could rotate them in and out of use or use the other sets to create an all 8 car Metro service. If Southern wanted to unify their Metro fleet, they could lease the remaining 27 455/8's (ex SWT) and the 456's till the end of the franchise to create an 8/10 car railway on the Metro routes. This could cascade some 377's to Southeastern who are in need of extra stock. Think they'll send the 707's though to Southeastern, unless they want to replace the Networkers in the next franchise.

I hope they don't however end up like the 508's in 2018 and the remaining sets go into store until 2021

I've heard the class 458's might go to Southeastern as part of the new franchise and the Southern 455's could really do with a full scale refurbishment if they are going to last longer have you not seen the condition of the seats:-x

 

[Class455]

I've heard the class 458's might go to Southeastern as part of the new franchise and the Southern 455's could really do with a full scale refurbishment if they are going to last longer have you not seen the condition of the seats:-x

Yeah I have and I totally agree with you, maybe Eversholt, who are doing the Class 321 Renatus programme could look into doing a similar project for the 455s. Despite GA getting rid of their Renatus Class 321's, there is interest in them from operators in the north. It is also much cheaper for GTR (or the government if Labour win the election) than buying 46 new trains.

 

[physics34]

The 321s are 8 years younger than the 455/8. The 455/8s are not far off life expired

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 321s are 8 years younger than the 455/8. The 455/8s are not far off life expired

And don't forget some underfloor equipment (e.g. compressors ) on the 455's came from 4Subs built in the 1940s so unless there are plans to retraction them like the SWT units, I can't see them lasting much longer.

But who knows....?

 

[387star]

Do the 455s have a thicker padding on the back of the seats than the very similar seats fitted to 377 centre vehicles or am I imagining it

 

[MatthewRead]

And don't forget some underfloor equipment (e.g. compressors ) on the 455's came from 4Subs built in the 1940s so unless there are plans to retraction them like the SWT units, I can't see them lasting much longer.

But who knows....?

Actually there 6 years first 321's entered service in 1988.

 

[Minstral25]

Obviously things can change - at the June GTR Stakeholders meeting, the Head of Fleet/Engineering (not sure of exact title) said the 455's will be going for full refurbishment in February 2018.

He was asked about 707's and said he was aware of them but that he had no current plans or reasons to bring them into GTR's fleet which is already committed to 2021

 

[Class455]

Obviously things can change - at the June GTR Stakeholders meeting, the Head of Fleet/Engineering (not sure of exact title) said the 455's will be going for full refurbishment in February 2018.

He was asked about 707's and said he was aware of them but that he had no current plans or reasons to bring them into GTR's fleet which is already committed to 2021

All of them? That's really good to hear. Hopefully this full "refurbishment"(and I say "refurbishment" because they had one from 2012-2014 and only minor work is needed to make them comply with 2020) will give them new Vossloh traction motors. And I do hope as well, like Greater Anglia are taking the remaining 317's and 321's into their fleet, that Southern take the remaining 455/8's when they begin to leave SWT in 2019

 

[physics34]

Do the 455s have a thicker padding on the back of the seats than the very similar seats fitted to 377 centre vehicles or am I imagining it

I kmow the pattern is different on them, not sure about the thickness

 

[hwl]

All of them? That's really good to hear. Hopefully this full "refurbishment"(and I say "refurbishment" because they had one from 2012-2014 and only minor work is needed to make them comply with 2020) will give them new Vossloh traction motors. And I do hope as well, like Greater Anglia are taking the remaining 317's and 321's into their fleet, that Southern take the remaining 455/8's when they begin to leave SWT in 2019

As the Southern 455 fleet will only be circa 50% utilised in 2019 and onwards they don't need even more of them!!!

 

[D365]

As the Southern 455 fleet will only be circa 50% utilised in 2019 and onwards they don't need even more of them!!!

Replace the existing Class 455 DC-motored units with a lower number of Class 455 AC-motored units? That'll free up some depot space at the same time.

 

[hwl]

Replace the existing Class 455 DC-motored units with a lower number of Class 455 AC-motored units? That'll free up some depot space at the same time.

The Southern and SWT 455s belong to different ROSCOs so virtually no chance.

 

[Class455]

The report by Chris Gibb into Southern says that he would recommend that Southern replace their 455's by 2023, giving them nearly six years left in service.The replacement stock won't be ordered until Nov/Dec 2021 at the earliest. Perhaps they could retraction them to keep them going till 2023? The SWT ones were only meant to last till 2024 thanks to its new traction equipment

 

[physics34]

The report by Chris Gibb into Southern says that he would recommend that Southern replace their 455's by 2023, giving them nearly six years left in service.The replacement stock won't be ordered until Nov/Dec 2021 at the earliest. Perhaps they could retraction them to keep them going till 2023? The SWT ones were only meant to last till 2024 thanks to its new traction equipment

A previous post mentioned that southerns 455 are going for a 'refurb' in 2018...so i presume that means retractioning and all.the PRI stuff

 

[swt_passenger]

A previous post mentioned that southerns 455 are going for a 'refurb' in 2018...so i presume that means retractioning and all.the PRI stuff

Re-tractioning has never been proposed for the SN fleet, AFAICT.
It wouldn't be considered as part of a normal refurbishment.

SWT's re-tractioning was doen to provide depot space/time for 707 maintenance, apparently it wasn't ever cost effective on its own.

 

[tsr]

Presumably the more limited use of the fleet will allow greater numbers of coaches to be sent for refurbishment at once, subject to space in the facilities for doing that, which in turn would mean more use of the refurbishment before the trains are withdrawn.

As for the call for aid buttons mentioned above, these are already provided in the wheelchair bays. However, the rest of the passenger alarms are of the traditional brake-applying type, and located some way above the doors, so it would be good if those were replaced.

 

[rebmcr]

all the PRI stuff

Persons of Reduced Interoperability?

 

[physics34]

Persons of Reduced Interoperability?

bloody mobile phone and my sausage fingers loooooool

 

[edwin_m]

Re-tractioning has never been proposed for the SN fleet, AFAICT.
It wouldn't be considered as part of a normal refurbishment.

SWT's re-tractioning was doen to provide depot space/time for 707 maintenance, apparently it wasn't ever cost effective on its own.

And I think that was also assuming 10 years continued use after re-engineering. If the Southern ones are going in 2023 then re-tractioning isn't going to be cost effective (it would probably take nearly that long to do the fleet anyway).

 

[Class455]

And I think that was also assuming 10 years continued use after re-engineering. If the Southern ones are going in 2023 then re-tractioning isn't going to be cost effective (it would probably take nearly that long to do the fleet anyway).

The SWT fleet has been completed within two years, and at the moment now that Vossloh know what they're doing, one is being completed every two weeks.

 

[edwin_m]

The SWT fleet has been completed within two years, and at the moment now that Vossloh know what they're doing, one is being completed every two weeks.

Was the two years from signing of contract or from the first conversion? Either way it means it has no more than four years maximum to pay back.

 

[Class455]

Was the two years from signing of contract or from the first conversion? Either way it means it has no more than four years maximum to pay back.

From the first conversion, think the first to be done was 455 870 in December 2015. In fact I'm wrong, its a year and a half. The whole project should be completed in 20 months

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With SWT's Aventras due to start to enter service mid 2019 and all be in delivered by December 2020, if SWTs were to replace their 455s first, would they be freed up in time for the by deadline for PRM mods to be in place.

Would it be worth Southern trying to get them or will they likely put out an ITT for new stock at some point?

 

[D365]

Would it be worth Southern trying to get them or will they likely put out an ITT for new stock at some point?

It wouldn't be under the current franchise I don't believe.

 

[rebmcr]

If the DC motors need overhauling anyway, then it doesn't matter how long the AC package will serve for, it's essentially just routine maintenance.