South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Greenback]

I have never been a fan of the tram proposals. If they want trams, then they should run them into the centre from places like Llandaff, and other places in the area that don't have a heavy rail service. They can then leave the well established havy rail routes well alone, along with integrated ticketing and the benefits of being part of a national network.

 

[4973]

I See the WG's North Wales 'Metro' proposals are coming under fire as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39140034

 

[HowardGWR]

Penarth and Barry services carry sizeable loadings through to Queen St and vice versa for Valleys services to Central.

I don't see how this post is a reply to mine. I made no point about these services, which, as you say, fulfill a clear need. Indeed, that was what I was referring to.

 

[CardiffKid]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39733717

Twelve new railway stations could be opened in Wales if the plans are judged to be viable.
Economy Secretary Ken Skates has written to AMs saying the sites have been chosen from a list of 46 proposals for more detailed scrutiny.

Four in the South Wales Metro area are:

Cardiff: Ely Mill/Victoria Park
Cardiff: Newport Road/Rover Way
Cardiff: St Mellons
Newport: Llanwern

Almost as though there's an election (or two) coming up!

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39733717



Four in the South Wales Metro area are:

Cardiff: Ely Mill/Victoria Park
Cardiff: Newport Road/Rover Way
Cardiff: St Mellons
Newport: Llanwern

Almost as though there's an election (or two) coming up!

I see Bow St is on there Ceredigion CC's plan to trash the Cambrians punctuality.

 

[gareth950]

And so the twists and turns of the 'Core Valley lines' (I hate that name so much - what makes the rest of what ATW currently class as the 'Valley lines' network 'non-core' and so by implication less important?) upgrade saga continues.

In this month's Modern Railways, p. 19, we have:

'Valley lines freight safeguarded' - the proposed conversion of the 'Core Valley Lines' in south Wales for light rail operation must NOT preclude future use of the railways for freight, the Welsh Govt has told companies bidding for the next W & B franchise.

The future Core Valley lines system is expected to retain or modify freight operations including co-existing with other potential modes.

Apparently there's a stone quarry near Hirwaun which may be used to supply stone for the building of the proposed Swansea bay tidal barrage, as well as coal trains continuing for the forseeable future from Cwmbargoed near Rhymney and Hirwaun.

'The WG have said 'discussions with the ORR had indicated that light rail would not preclude freight.'

So, we'll have trams running on heavy rail infrastructure up & down the valleys? Why bother?

 

[Class 170101]

So, we'll have trams running on heavy rail infrastructure up & down the valleys? Why bother?

Tram Trains nore likely if the Rotherham pilot pulls its finger out and is a success.

 

[gareth950]

Tram Trains nore likely if the Rotherham pilot pulls its finger out and is a success.

But we have to wait until late 2018 to know the outcome that trial. The new Wales and Borders franchise will be up and running by then, with it being awarded in a few months and an initial ITT being released next month.

Tram-train running exclusively on heavy rail infrastructure is pointless. It would be cheaper to get cascaded EMU's in from elsewhere.

 

[Class 170101]

But we have to wait until late 2018 to know the outcome that trial. The new Wales and Borders franchise will be up and running by then, with it being awarded in a few months and an initial ITT being released next month.

Tram-train running exclusively on heavy rail infrastructure is pointless. It would be cheaper to get cascaded EMU's in from elsewhere.

I agree EMUs would be better, merely pointing out that Trams and freight trains won't work would have to be Tram Trains.

 

[Dai Corner]

I agree EMUs would be better, merely pointing out that Trams and freight trains won't work would have to be Tram Trains.

How about running the freight at night, after all the trams are off the line and in the depot? Would that be allowed?

 

[gareth950]

How about running the freight at night, after all the trams are off the line and in the depot? Would that be allowed?

During engineering work posessions? You can't rely on running a regular freight service at night or early morning when that's the only time available for engineering posessions surely?

If there's a few consecutive weeks of overnight posessions no freight could run!

 

[MarkyT]

I agree EMUs would be better, merely pointing out that Trams and freight trains won't work would have to be Tram Trains.

I think it's been claimed here in the past that capital cost per seat for tram-train stock is significantly higher than for conventional new EMUs. On the other hand tram-trains could allow more cost effective extensions to the metro, with new branches constructed to light rail standards. Clearly the whole fleet would not need to be tram-train though, only those units for such new branches, which could inter-work with conventional EMUs on the current 'core' heavy rail network as long as both retain conventional high platforms, as has been proposed for Manchester Metrolink tram-train extensions.

 

[Dai Corner]

During engineering work posessions? You can't rely on running a regular freight service at night or early morning when that's the only time available for engineering posessions surely?

If there's a few consecutive weeks of overnight posessions no freight could run!

I don't know. Do they need every hour of every night/early morning for engineering? If the only freight is coal even a few weeks' production could be stockpiled at source if necessary.

 

[edwin_m]

deleted

 

[Envoy]

A programme went out on BBC Wales (27 June 2017) about the Growth of Cardiff in relation to transport infrastructure. Yesterday, a Network Rail vehicle was filming everything that crossed the St.Fagans Level Crossing. Wonder if they are using number plate recognition systems to fond out where the owners of all the cars live? Perhaps they are wondering about the forthcoming building of thousands of houses north of St.Fagans and its effects at this level crossing? It could well be that a situation occurs where the flow of traffic is greater than can clear the level crossing between trains - as happens now from time to time.

We have had all this talk about a metro system but still no action on the matter. The Welsh Government have not even decided on the next franchise holder for what is now ATW. This of course means that no trains have been ordered - whether for the SE Wales ‘metro’ or anywhere else in Wales.

The link for the programme follows but it can also be seen on the BBC News channel on Saturday 1/7/17 at 16.30 or Sunday 2/7/17 at 10.30am.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08w9473/week-in-week-out-cardiffs-growing-pains

 

[Gareth Marston]

A programme went out on BBC Wales (27 June 2017) about the Growth of Cardiff in relation to transport infrastructure. Yesterday, a Network Rail vehicle was filming everything that crossed the St.Fagans Level Crossing. Wonder if they are using number plate recognition systems to fond out where the owners of all the cars live? Perhaps they are wondering about the forthcoming building of thousands of houses north of St.Fagans and its effects at this level crossing? It could well be that a situation occurs where the flow of traffic is greater than can clear the level crossing between trains - as happens now from time to time.

We have had all this talk about a metro system but still no action on the matter. The Welsh Government have not even decided on the next franchise holder for what is now ATW. This of course means that no trains have been ordered - whether for the SE Wales ‘metro’ or anywhere else in Wales.

The link for the programme follows but it can also be seen on the BBC News channel on Saturday 1/7/17 at 16.30 or Sunday 2/7/17 at 10.30am.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08w9473/week-in-week-out-cardiffs-growing-pains

Well after years of dithering they haven't been suckered into the Circuit of Wales con which might mean there's some money around for infrastructure.

 

[Envoy]

Well after years of dithering they haven't been suckered into the Circuit of Wales con which might mean there's some money around for infrastructure.

Yes, and a darn good job they have crossed that crazy scheme off. Whoever thought that building a motor racing circuit at about 1,100 feet above sea level - where low cloud can be a problem, would be a good idea?

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, and a darn good job they have crossed that crazy scheme off. Whoever thought that building a motor racing circuit at about 1,100 feet above sea level - where low cloud can be a problem, would be a good idea?

Especially as Silverstone is said to be worth less than a tenth of the £425m the CoW was going to cost despite its world famous brand and superior location. From what I can gather, the private investors would have got their money back from the WG if the project had failed so it was a no-brainer for them.

But we're getting way off topic so I better leave it there.

 

[gareth950]

Yes, and a darn good job they have crossed that crazy scheme off. Whoever thought that building a motor racing circuit at about 1,100 feet above sea level - where low cloud can be a problem, would be a good idea?

AFAIK the CoW was the idea of the previous Economy minister, Edwina Hart, who has now retired from Welsh politics.

 

[Hwnt52]

Yes, and a darn good job they have crossed that crazy scheme off. Whoever thought that building a motor racing circuit at about 1,100 feet above sea level - where low cloud can be a problem, would be a good idea?

It was probably the same person who thought that running trams to Rhymney (900 feet above sea level) was a good idea.

 

[edwin_m]

It was probably the same person who thought that running trams to Rhymney (900 feet above sea level) was a good idea.

At least the trains can keep running in low cloud as long as the rail isn't too slippery. Racing cars probably can't, and if they can nobody can see them!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, and a darn good job they have crossed that crazy scheme off. Whoever thought that building a motor racing circuit at about 1,100 feet above sea level - where low cloud can be a problem, would be a good idea?

Just come across these pics of a snowplough train in February 1979 near Dowlias on freight line no closed. Remember this is lower down than the Proposed circuit!

http://www.whamart.co.uk/photogallery/south wales 3_1.htm

 

[krus_aragon]

Just come across these pics of a snowplough train in February 1979 near Dowlias on freight line no closed. Remember this is lower down than the Proposed circuit!

http://www.whamart.co.uk/photogallery/south wales 3_1.htm

Who knows what aerodynamic advantages you could get from racing around with a snow plough on your front!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Who knows what aerodynamic advantages you could get from racing around with a snow plough on your front!

Great pics and they give those unfamiliar with the area an idea of the terrain that the Heads of the Valleys is in. However the circuit of Wales and the South Wales Metro are opposites in the view of how to redevelop the valleys do we accept that they are part of the wider Cardiff City Region and need good public transport links from the periphery into the centre or do we try and bring development into the valleys themselves? People to jobs or jobs to the people?

The Welsh Government have announced they are going to build an automotive business park near Ebbw Vale allegedly bring quality jobs into the area. Quite why international automotive companies will want to locate 1200 feet above sea level and no where close to any potential market in an area without any pool of skilled labour readily available is unclear. I suspect the Welsh Government is playing to the gallery appeasing Valleys politicians and the older generation of voters who still believe that the jobs can be brought into the Valleys whereas the Metro effectively says commute to Cardiff.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Great pics and they give those unfamiliar with the area an idea of the terrain that the Heads of the Valleys is in. However the circuit of Wales and the South Wales Metro are opposites in the view of how to redevelop the valleys do we accept that they are part of the wider Cardiff City Region and need good public transport links from the periphery into the centre or do we try and bring development into the valleys themselves? People to jobs or jobs to the people?

The Welsh Government have announced they are going to build an automotive business park near Ebbw Vale allegedly bring quality jobs into the area. Quite why international automotive companies will want to locate 1200 feet above sea level and no where close to any potential market in an area without any pool of skilled labour readily available is unclear. I suspect the Welsh Government is playing to the gallery appeasing Valleys politicians and the older generation of voters who still believe that the jobs can be brought into the Valleys whereas the Metro effectively says commute to Cardiff.

A bit like the 1938 or so decision to rebuild the steelworks in Ebbw Vale - when the economics of moving to the coastal strip was blatantly obvious once the 19thC supply of local ore was exhausted , - still , the GWR and later BR got very large revenues for this decision.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A bit like the 1938 or so decision to rebuild the steelworks in Ebbw Vale - when the economics of moving to the coastal strip was blatantly obvious once the 19thC supply of local ore was exhausted , - still , the GWR and later BR got very large revenues for this decision.

£100 million for a business park in the clouds as opposed to underwriting £440 million of racing track in the clouds. Purely playing to the gallery as the skills don't exist to attract in these companies.

Meanwhile nothing is happening with the Metro itself though there is a rumour that the Transport for Wales officials who ran the so called consultation for the new franchise have been sent a copy of Thomas the Tank engine picked up from a second hand book stall at a heritage railway so they know what a train looks like.

 

[Dai Corner]

Jayne Bryant AM tweeted that she had met Network Rail yesterday (at Park Junction signalbox judging by the picture)

I asked her whether she had asked NR why the work on redoubling on the Ebbw Vale had apparently stopped. She claimed it hadn't and that Phase 1 was complete and Phase 2 was in the planning stage. She hasn't replied explaining what these phases were.

 

[edwin_m]

Great pics and they give those unfamiliar with the area an idea of the terrain that the Heads of the Valleys is in. However the circuit of Wales and the South Wales Metro are opposites in the view of how to redevelop the valleys do we accept that they are part of the wider Cardiff City Region and need good public transport links from the periphery into the centre or do we try and bring development into the valleys themselves? People to jobs or jobs to the people?

You need good communications for either. With many couples working in different places and general expectations of mobility the days are long gone when the workforce for the pit or mill lived in the terraces nearby and walked to their shifts. So a significant amount of commuting has got to be part of the mix, and where possible it should be handled by public transport and preferably by rail.

Bringing more employment into the Valleys themselves would be more difficult than bringing it to Cardiff, because even with high-quality transport links they are less accessible than central Cardiff is, whether for business travellers, employees or goods. There might be limited exceptions for places with good road access such as near the M4, but that would exacerbate the motorway congestion problems that already exist.

 

[PHILIPE]

Jayne Bryant AM tweeted that she had met Network Rail yesterday (at Park Junction signalbox judging by the picture)

I asked her whether she had asked NR why the work on redoubling on the Ebbw Vale had apparently stopped. She claimed it hadn't and that Phase 1 was complete and Phase 2 was in the planning stage. She hasn't replied explaining what these phases were.

Beaten to it:-

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=144142&page=2:):)

 

[Dai Corner]

Beaten to it:-

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=144142&page=2:):)

I was trying to test her understanding of the situation as the context implied phases of the redoubling rather than the Metro.