Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

[cjmillsnun]

Now we have a big enough sample to start looking for patterns.

It's hard to understand how this many buildings were clad in inappropriate materials over quite a long period of time without some of the hundreds of people involved realising the potential hazard.

Some realised. This is from 1984!
[youtube]upViHb8z4wY[/youtube]
Inquiry - The Great British Housing Disaster (Adam Curtis / BBC 1984)

 

[najaB]

Some realised. This is from 1984!

Interesting. Though the materials used in Grenfell (and other blocks) are quite different to the materials which would have been in use in 1984.

Given the long history of cladding systems being used, I wonder if this is another situation where the normalisation of risk was at play?

 

[IanXC]

The latest information is that the cladding from sixty buildings has now been tested and every single one failed.

One wonders whether there is something different about the Camden blocks, Camden Council are being unduly cautious or the other Councils too complacent.

I don't know what to think of this tbh. There is one key factor; Councils have been asked to focus on the buildings that they suspect may have issues, that would suggest that as we go on the failure rate will fall. The other thing is that statements today only talk of the number of failures - and the ability to perform 100 tests per day which makes the suggestion only 60 have been completed seem unlikely.

Heres there statement for 25 June, which seems to be the source of the 60:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cladding-sample-testing-update

Sajid Javid MP, Secretary of State for Communities & Local Government, published a statement on Saturday 24 June which detailed the work being undertaken to ensure the safety of residents in high-rise buildings following the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

The number of high rise buildings from which cladding samples have failed a combustibility test at the Building Research Establishment is now 60 across 25 local authority areas. All landlords and fire and rescue services for these local authorities have been alerted to the results and we are in touch with all of them to support and monitor follow-up action.

The table below shows the distribution of buildings, naming those areas where we know that the local authority or landlord has informed affected residents that a building’s cladding has failed the test.

In terms of the Camden situation these evacuated blocks have a particular collection of risks all present in the same building, where others don't. There is suggestion that the Camden blocks have (a) Aluminium core cladding (b) issues with gas pipes (c) issues with fire doors. It seems that other buildings found to have cladding issues are passing the other fire safety tests.

Gas pipes is an interesting one, historically buildings like this would have their gas pipes shut away in enclosed service risers. Building Regs now require that gas pipes are in a visible location to prevent the service riser acting as a chimney and causing the fire to become more intense/spread to a wider area. The response to this has often been to put the gas pipes in the public areas... there is now some suggestion that this has created other issues at Grenfell, and has had the potential to damage the fire stopping between floors when this work has been carried out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best way to have gas in high rises is not to have it. Have a centralised hot water heating facility, which could have the environmental benefit of being based on an air source heat pump topped up by other means, and induction hobs in the kitchen for those wishing to have gas-style levels of control.

 

[najaB]

The best way to have gas in high rises is not to have it....

For new-build properties that is the way to go, but it would be very expensive to retrofit to older buildings.

 

[jon0844]

GTR was out collecting today and raised over £2100 at St Pancras alone in the morning rush hour. They'll be collecting again in the evening rush hour, as well as at many other stations.

That could be £10k raised in one day - and there are collections are tomorrow and Wednesday too.

That goes to show just how generous people can be and that to most people there is no 'them and us' or 'rich and poor'. Makes you feel good about society when there's so much negativity around.

 

[AndyPJG]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40409981

Firm which supplied cladding thought to have been on London's Grenfell Tower ends global sales for high-rise blocks
This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.

 

[HSTEd]

Programme on Radio 4 suggested that the way the tests have been conducted has been changed, from playing flames onto the outer face of the cladding panel to directly applying flame onto the core of the panel.

Which may account for the considerably worse result.

 

[Dai Corner]

Sajid Javid is speaking in the Commons now and says the cladding on 75 buildings have now failed the test. He urges all building managers/owners to submit samples for testing.

 

[najaB]

Which may account for the considerably worse result.

Indeed. As I posted a few days ago, I suspect that the cladding was intended to be applied directly to the face of the building with metal end plates on the exposed cut surfaces, which would mean that flame couldn't directly impinge on the foam. In this application it would be relatively safe since only a very small area could be directly exposed to flame.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Of course , back in the 1960's , many, many houses had polystyrene ceiling tiles fitted - (including my own 1934 built detached here in St Albans) . Great for insulation they said and a bonus to your house.

In the event of a fire , sheets of flame and burning drops would have spread , with thick black smoke and probably cyanide.

First thing I did , 25 years ago , was rip them down and bin them from the 2 rooms that had them.They burnt scarily...

 

[HSTEd]

Polystyrene won't cyanide you.

Only Polyurethane can do that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Polystyrene won't cyanide you.

Only Polyurethane can do that.

Oh good so just the burning plastic dripping everywhere and think black acrid smoke to worry about then!

 

[Busaholic]

I don't know what to think of this tbh. There is one key factor; Councils have been asked to focus on the buildings that they suspect may have issues, that would suggest that as we go on the failure rate will fall. The other thing is that statements today only talk of the number of failures - and the ability to perform 100 tests per day which makes the suggestion only 60 have been completed seem unlikely.

Heres there statement for 25 June, which seems to be the source of the 60:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cladding-sample-testing-update



In terms of the Camden situation these evacuated blocks have a particular collection of risks all present in the same building, where others don't. There is suggestion that the Camden blocks have (a) Aluminium core cladding (b) issues with gas pipes (c) issues with fire doors. It seems that other buildings found to have cladding issues are passing the other fire safety tests.

Gas pipes is an interesting one, historically buildings like this would have their gas pipes shut away in enclosed service risers. Building Regs now require that gas pipes are in a visible location to prevent the service riser acting as a chimney and causing the fire to become more intense/spread to a wider area. The response to this has often been to put the gas pipes in the public areas... there is now some suggestion that this has created other issues at Grenfell, and has had the potential to damage the fire stopping between floors when this work has been carried out.

The day following the Grenfell fire, the BBC put out on their news website what they considered to be a summary of indisputable facts so far established about the disaster. In that summary, they stated that there had been a fractured gas pipe in the building. I don't remember reading, or hearing, this anywhere else before or since, though I haven't looked exhaustively. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Polystyrene won't cyanide you.

Only Polyurethane can do that.

Incorrect. Many polymers release cynaide when burnt. PIR as used in the insulation certainly does. Other plastics that you think wouldn't may well release cyanide depending on the composition of the plasticisers.

 

[HSTEd]

Incorrect. Many polymers release cynaide when burnt. PIR as used in the insulation certainly does. Other plastics that you think wouldn't may well release cyanide depending on the composition of the plasticisers.

Polystyrene is not polyisocyanurate.

Indeed polystyrene does not tend to contain large amounts of plasticisers, certainly not nitrile bearing ones that tend to release cyanides.

Certainly you are highly unlikely to die from cyanide poisoning in a situation where only the plasticisers are gassing it off.
Smoke inhalation will get you long before that.

 

[IanXC]

Of course , back in the 1960's , many, many houses had polystyrene ceiling tiles fitted - (including my own 1934 built detached here in St Albans) . Great for insulation they said and a bonus to your house.

In the event of a fire , sheets of flame and burning drops would have spread , with thick black smoke and probably cyanide.

First thing I did , 25 years ago , was rip them down and bin them from the 2 rooms that had them.They burnt scarily...

Talking of burning drops, I have heard suggestion that the way the fire service fought the fire externally may not have been optimum for the materials involved. NB monumental amounts of potential hindsight here.

The way that polyethylene burns and forms burning droplets may have been exacerbated by aiming water jets at a high level, so causing an increase in the rate that the drops happen, and causing the seat of the fire to grow from the insulation at the lower levels, to floors above so causing the fire to be more serious at higher levels than it previously was. Clearly some of the jets aimed at higher level were to protect people identified at various windows so clearly a very difficult decision to be made in deciding how to fight such a fire.

More than 1,000 fire doors were missing from Camden tower blocks evacuated in the wake of the Grenfell Tower fire, the Government has said.

Communities and Local Government Secretary Sajid Javid said that concerns over the use of flammable cladding was "not the whole story" behind the evacuation in north London and outlined a string of failures over insulation, breaches of internal walls and missing fire doors.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ower-blocks-evacuated-in-camden-a3573551.html

The differences between the evacuated Camden towers and others which have failed the tests seem to be becoming clear.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anything official been said as to the reason why the stated 1,000 fire doors were said to have been missing from the tower blocks at Camden.

 

[IanXC]

Has anything official been said as to the reason why the stated 1,000 fire doors were said to have been missing from the tower blocks at Camden.

There has been some suggestion that some of the missing fire doors are within flats, and have been potentially removed by the residents, however a good portion of the fire doors I would expect to be in the public areas.

 

[Busaholic]

There has been some suggestion that some of the missing fire doors are within flats, and have been potentially removed by the residents, however a good portion of the fire doors I would expect to be in the public areas.

'Newsnight' report from one of the part-evacuated block of Camden flats showed a fire door in its place, and apparently perfect in every way, except that it's now known that it will have to be replaced because it's not sufficiently resistant to the type of fire that ran through Grenfell and would potentially run through Bray, Taplow and the other Chalcot towers. Multiply this door by at least the number of storeys, and then the number of blocks (4), and you very quickly realise the extent of the problem. Unfortunately, Javid seems to be going on the party political offensive, probably because he was wrongfooted in his first interview after the tragedy, by John Humphreys on the 'Today' programme, when he was quoted boasting to businessmen how he'd got 'red tape' on fire prevention down from a 5 hour exercise to 75 minutes, or something like that. Needless to say, Javid ignored the reference. Now he can start attacking a Labour-run authority, implying they'd let things get out of hand, whereas the truth of the matter is the whole political class has presided over a distressing lack of interest in the lives of those who either choose, or are more likely forced into, social housing.

 

[Railops]

There has been some suggestion that some of the missing fire doors are within flats, and have been potentially removed by the residents, however a good portion of the fire doors I would expect to be in the public areas.

There is a rumor that during refurbishment these doors were illegally removed and sold on to other building sites around London. This may well be true as a Polish guy rang talkradio and said he'd seen Romanian builders putting fire doors in lorries at the time which were never replaced.

 

[IanXC]

There is a rumor that during refurbishment these doors were illegally removed and sold on to other building sites around London. This may well be true as a Polish guy rang talkradio and said he'd seen Romanian builders putting fire doors in lorries at the time which were never replaced.

Yikes (!)

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting

 

[DarloRich]

The head of the public enquiry has been announced

BBC:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40438701

Retired Court of Appeal judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick has been chosen to lead the public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire, the PM has said.

The residents are not happy but it seems their complaints misunderstand the point of such an enquiry. They are quoted as saying they want a "criminal" judge assigned.

 

[Dai Corner]

The head of the public enquiry has been announced

BBC:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40438701



The residents are not happy but it seems their complaints misunderstand the point of such an enquiry. They are quoted as saying they want a "criminal" judge assigned.

I thought the Met had met survivors from as many of the flats as they could (the assumption being there were none from the other flats). They surely explained that they were running the criminal investigation?

Meanwhile, a man has been arrested on suspicion of fraudulently claiming to have lost family in the fire in order to get compensation.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2017...ely-claiming-he-lost-family-in-grenfell-fire/

A man has been arrested on suspicion of fraudulently trying to get compensation by pretending he had lost family members in the Grenfell Tower fire.
,
Police say the man came forward in the immediate aftermath of the fire and was assigned family liaison officers after he claimed that he lost his wife and son.

An investigation began after inconsistencies emerged in the man's stories. Police spoke to nearby residents of the flat within Grenfell Tower who confirmed he did not live at the address.

Officers also traced an address in Bromley where the man was living at the time of the fire and discovered he does not have a wife or child.


"The distress and suffering caused to so many families and loved ones that night is harrowing.

That night people lost their homes, all their possessions and tragically their families and loved ones. The focus of all of us should be on supporting victims and families, recovering loved ones from Grenfell Tower and investigating the fire.

I have made it clear that we are not interested in investigating things such as sub-letting or immigration matters as I want their help - and do not want there to be any hidden victims of this tragedy.

However, we will robustly investigate any information about anyone who seeks to capitalise on the suffering of so many."

– DETECTIVE SUPERINTENDENT FIONA MCCORMACK, MET POLICE

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This poem by Ben Okri in response to the tragedy was performed on Channel 4 News the other day. It's quite long but very moving, so I decided to post it here for anyone who missed it.
https://youtu.be/zC9Ni-IPnAc

 

[Darandio]

More news on cost cutting coming out this morning....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40453054

Grenfell Tower: Cladding 'changed to cheaper version'

Cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower during its refurbishment was changed to a cheaper version, documents obtained by the BBC suggest.

Documents show the zinc cladding originally proposed was replaced with an aluminium type, which was less fire resistant, saving nearly £300,000.

The cladding is thought to have contributed to the spread of the fire that killed at least 80 people.

There is no suggestion a deliberate decision was made to cut fire safety.

It comes as Kensington and Chelsea council's first cabinet meeting since the disaster was adjourned after just 20 minutes on Thursday - after the council was forced by a court order to admit the press and public.

The council halted the meeting, claiming it would "prejudice" the forthcoming public inquiry.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan said the council's decision "beggars belief".

The documents obtained by the BBC reveal contractors working for Kensington and Chelsea council were asked in 2014 to replace zinc cladding with a more economical aluminium version.

One document - a list of requested savings sent to contractors in July 2014 - details potential savings of £693,161, reducing the cost of the contract from about £9.2m to £8.5m.

It includes £293,368 that would be saved by fitting "aluminium cladding in lieu of zinc cladding".

The switch allowed for a change of colour, but the BBC has been told another key reason was to save money.

 

[HSTEd]

Eh. Might be blown out of proportion.
By the time aluminium catches fire its all over anyway

 

[w0033944]

Eh. Might be blown out of proportion.
By the time aluminium catches fire its all over anyway

As I understand it, it isn't a question of aluminium vs. zinc, it's that the aluminium cladding had a polymer core, which appears to have been more combustible than expected under 'real'life' conditions, whereas I recall from the other week that the zinc cladding had a metal honeycomb core and was therefore more resistant to fire due to not containing plastic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The head of the public enquiry has been announced
BBC:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40438701

The residents are not happy but it seems their complaints misunderstand the point of such an enquiry. They are quoted as saying they want a "criminal" judge assigned.

Why was the clarification of the remit of the appointee not made clear to the residents by those agencies, official or charitable, who have been helping them since the occurrence. There have been previous instances of such misunderstanding by people, notably the painted "paedo" graffiti over the house of a paediatrician some years ago.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why was the clarification of the remit of the appointee not made clear to the residents by those agencies, official or charitable, who have been helping them since the occurrence. There have been previous instances of such misunderstanding by people, notably the painted "paedo" graffiti over the house of a paediatrician some years ago.

I think the concerns by the residents are poorly articulated.

I think what they're meaning to say is along the lines of "we don't want a public inquiry, we want criminal trials to hold people responsible".