South Wales 'Metro' updates

[sjoh]

Probably not practical to haul cameras and sound kit on trains, I would sugest, especially in rush hour.

Funnily enough, a couple of years ago on a train back to London from Manchester I was sat opposite a couple of young production assistants from the One Show who had obviously drawn the short straw, as they were hauling a hefty amount of camera and audio equipment back to a production office in White City. If you thought a pendolino was cramped...

 

[gareth950]

I don't understand the fetish for a separated light rail system for the South Wales valleys. The service would be worse for journeys from outside the Cardiff area, Cardiff city centre has no space for segregated light rail, it would not be suitable for the Barry line and would cost a lot of time and money to implement.

It's come down to a number of factors.

1. The electrification crisis at Network Rail seemingly rendering them incapable of carrying out any upgrade project competently, on time and on budget

2. The Conservative govt's refusal invest anything in rail infrastructure in Wales, esp since Chris Grayling took over at the DfT

3. The Conservative govt's refusal to hand over responsibility and control of Network Rail in Wales to Welsh Govt to allow Welsh Govt to specify what infrastructure upgrades it would like to see in Wales

4. Money: The cost of upgrading the Valley lines if heavy rail electrification is chosen. Raising many, many very old bridges, doubling the single line sections up to the heads of the valleys to allow increases in frequency, widening the bridge over Newport Rd to relieve the bottleneck before Queen St, somehow managing to increase capacity with the constraint of the 2 track section between Queen St and Central (which is now impossible to widen without demolishing newly built, albeit some empty, office buildings), the complexities of wiring Caerphilly tunnel.

Although CASR now allows 16tph between Central and Queen St, and there are now 4 platforms available at both Central and Queen St for valley lines services, but as ATW haven't got enough trains to take advantage of the capacity CASR has unlocked, we're still stick at 12tph.

All these factors mean Welsh Govt want to take control of the only bit of rail infrastructure in Wales that they can, which is these 'Core' valley lines north of Cardiff, as it can be a relatively self contained network. Light rail is seen as much cheaper. Although the single track sections north of Abercynon will still be there, and one tram can only occupy a single line section at a time just as one train can.
Taking trams off the network at Cathays so the trams wind their way around the musuem and castle to get to Central station down Westgate street, which is currently choked with buses (which I don't see changing even with the new mini bus station) is madness. Currently Cathays to Queen St takes 3 minutes maximum. Cathays to Central about 7 minutes. But lets push that time up to 20 - 30 minutes sat in heavy traffic instead.

It currently takes 17 minutes to go from Cogan just outside Cardiff to Cathays on one train. Prof Cole's suggestion would see you having to not just change at Central, but exit the station, walk to get on a tram, then wind your way through central Cardiff's most congested streets, and your journey time at least tripled.

I despair. :cry:

 

[Llanigraham]

One suggestion I had heard was to use the old canal route that used to be a car park alongside North Rd, but then they couldn't work out where to go when they got to the Castle!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Any suggestion that increases journey times or removes through trains to Cardiff Central is simply madness and needs to be knocked down as soon as the suggestion is made. It almost seems like the politicians really want to make themselves unpopular (because if they take control of the core valley lines then royally screw over those that use it, then they will be VERY unpopular indeed).

 

[gareth950]

Any suggestion that increases journey times or removes through trains to Cardiff Central is simply madness and needs to be knocked down as soon as the suggestion is made. It almost seems like the politicians really want to make themselves unpopular (because if they take control of the core valley lines then royally screw over those that use it, then they will be VERY unpopular indeed).

The problem is that these suggestions are not being knocked down, instead they are being encouraged by these experts fuelling the Welsh Govt's delusional ideas.
Also, because the whole franchise and Metro contract award process is being carried out in top secret, there's no chance for opposition AMs to scrutinse plans and proposals in the Assembly chamber either.

There was one voice of reason in that BBC article at the end who questioned whether trams are really the best option for Cardiff and saying why can't buses be used to achieve exactly the same thing.
Well, the number 6 baycar bus, a fleet of modern, long bendy buses, currently does just that. It runs from Cardiff Bay to Cathays Park every 7-8 mins following the exact route that Prof Cole suggested for trams.

 

[gareth950]

It's come down to a number of factors.................

I forgot to add to that list the fact that the Welsh Govt insists that in order to qualify for EU funding for the Metro, it must own the infrastructure to be developed.

This doesn't mean the ODP must choose light rail however, it could choose heavy rail electrification.

 

[CardiffKid]

There was one voice of reason in that BBC article at the end who questioned whether trams are really the best option for Cardiff and saying why can't buses be used to achieve exactly the same thing.
Well, the number 6 baycar bus, a fleet of modern, long bendy buses, currently does just that. It runs from Cardiff Bay to Cathays Park every 7-8 mins following the exact route that Prof Cole suggested for trams.

Prof Cole once rather bluntly put it to me:

Suits don't like buses

He went on to elaborate that professionals would choose a train or tram over a bus anyway and that that is why he favors rail/trams.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

I'm sure it has a lot to do with wanting to be seen to be on the same level as the other UK and European cities that have trams. The end of that BBC article is very indicative. It's very much "Cardiff is a capital, you know. It's got to have things that other capitals have. Other capitals have trams. We must have trams too, otherwise we're not a very good capital." It's absolutely nothing to do with practicality, and everything to do with status and fashion

Plus as described above, it's the cheap option, but without looking like it to people on the outside who aren't fully up to speed with transport policy. The Welsh government can present it as significant investment in the Valley Lines network while also being drastically less investment than proper electrification and replacement of the train fleet. We're seeing a massive con in action - making people in the Valleys think they're getting something shiny, modern and altogether better when actually the reality is it's effectively brutal cost-cutting, and they won't realise until many years into the future. It's a deeply cynical move

 

[Chester1]

The snobbery works both ways. There are plenty of rail purists who object to any train to tram conversions regardless of practicalities. I have lost count of the number of people on here or elsewhere who think Bury and Altrincham should never have been converted or even think one or both should be converted back. This despite the lack of rail capacity in Manchester city centre and the business case for creating Metrolink relied on heavy rail rewiring costs and proven demand. I am not familiar with Cardiffs rail system but it does sound like the increase in capacity from 12tph to 16tph between Queens Street and Central is the last realistic increase in frequency. Trams are a useful way of bypassing capacity constraints when the remaining heavy upgrade options are prohibitively expensive.

 

[gareth950]

Prof Cole once rather bluntly put it to me:

He went on to elaborate that professionals would choose a train or tram over a bus anyway and that that is why he favors rail/trams.

If Cardiff wants a tram system, that's fine, I'm not against it. A tram system linking Cardiff Bay with Cathays park, and a network linking the Plasdwr housing development in Cardiff West with the city centre, as well as trams out to the east of the city, would be great.

Any tram service that Cardiff has should complement and be in addition to the existing heavy rail network that feeds into the city from the north and south, NOT replace it.

To sever the rail link from Cathays - Queen St - Central would be total madness by having trams divert after Cathays and wind their way through Cardiff's streets to Central station. Not to mention the millions that Network Rail recently spent on re-signalling that section with CASR to enhance capacity, that now may never be used.

I agree with everything Blwch Y Groes has said, and it stinks even more when no doubt early next year it will be announced that over £1 billion will be spent on a 25 mile stretch of M4 relief road, but when it comes to doing a proper job of the valley lines, governments in Cardiff Bay and Westminster plead poverty.

 

[Gareth Marston]

One suggestion I had heard was to use the old canal route that used to be a car park alongside North Rd, but then they couldn't work out where to go when they got to the Castle!

Which goes to show theirs no practical off existing formation/ street running solutions so what's the point of light rail especially when it will lose the current heavy rail advantages of serving prime locations?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm sure it has a lot to do with wanting to be seen to be on the same level as the other UK and European cities that have trams. The end of that BBC article is very indicative. It's very much "Cardiff is a capital, you know. It's got to have things that other capitals have. Other capitals have trams. We must have trams too, otherwise we're not a very good capital." It's absolutely nothing to do with practicality, and everything to do with status and fashion

Plus as described above, it's the cheap option, but without looking like it to people on the outside who aren't fully up to speed with transport policy. The Welsh government can present it as significant investment in the Valley Lines network while also being drastically less investment than proper electrification and replacement of the train fleet. We're seeing a massive con in action - making people in the Valleys think they're getting something shiny, modern and altogether better when actually the reality is it's effectively brutal cost-cutting, and they won't realise until many years into the future. It's a deeply cynical move

Ufortunstely the initial business case for Valleys wiring was made assuming the use of cascaded 313's, the sulking about wanting something brand started immediately. There's a. Mentality down there amongst local politicians that the valleys have be deliberately disinvested in andthere "owed" investment in new of everything. queue shiny new tram brochures.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The snobbery works both ways. There are plenty of rail purists who object to any train to tram conversions regardless of practicalities. I have lost count of the number of people on here or elsewhere who think Bury and Altrincham should never have been converted or even think one or both should be converted back. This despite the lack of rail capacity in Manchester city centre and the business case for creating Metrolink relied on heavy rail rewiring costs and proven demand. I am not familiar with Cardiffs rail system but it does sound like the increase in capacity from 12tph to 16tph between Queens Street and Central is the last realistic increase in frequency. Trams are a useful way of bypassing capacity constraints when the remaining heavy upgrade options are prohibitively expensive.

There's two different routes from Radyr into central Cardiff so the 16 tph between Queen St and Central is not the limit of how many valleys trains can be run into Cardiff.

 

[Chester1]

There's two different routes from Radyr into central Cardiff so the 16 tph between Queen St and Central is not the limit of how many valleys trains can be run into Cardiff.

I know but the limit between Central and the junction near Queen Street is still there regardless of how services are routed, linked together etc. Its not neccessary to increase capacity aside from more rolling stock and using the new paths but I am pretty skeptical when people say there is no tram route through Cardiff. A tram line down the A662 or Cross Street (Manchester) sounded like a stupid idea but it works well. From an outsiders perspective there is sufficient spare track and platforms to run trams from Queen Street to Cardiff Bay and wide enough roads to run from both stations to Central via Callaghan Square. West bank of the Taff would be the most obvious route to link the Central, Principality and Castle and then alongside North Road. Thats a fairly decent loop without needin to run through pedestrianised streets, much of which would probably only allow for a single track. Converting Coryton to Heath then street running to Cathays would help to balance West-East train flows.

I am not saying tram is the best idea but that its easy for people to say its impossible when similiar challenges have been overcome elsewhere.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The snobbery works both ways. There are plenty of rail purists who object to any train to tram conversions regardless of practicalities. I have lost count of the number of people on here or elsewhere who think Bury and Altrincham should never have been converted or even think one or both should be converted back. This despite the lack of rail capacity in Manchester city centre and the business case for creating Metrolink relied on heavy rail rewiring costs and proven demand. I am not familiar with Cardiffs rail system but it does sound like the increase in capacity from 12tph to 16tph between Queens Street and Central is the last realistic increase in frequency. Trams are a useful way of bypassing capacity constraints when the remaining heavy upgrade options are prohibitively expensive.

Well imo there's a good reason why we should not regard tram conversion particularly highly. Tram lines are not maintained to the same standard. Trams aren't held to the same safety standards as trains - see Croydon. They're nearly all run DOO and they don't have toilets or comfortable seats

By all means, build more tram lines in cities. Get people out of cars. But the seemingly inevitable conversion of the Valley Lines to tram lines is a huge backwards step for the customer. They're a city centre mode of transport, not for journeys of over an hour from the heads of the valleys to Cardiff and beyond. If they want to sort out the Valleys rail network's issues, they should pay up and do it properly, not cause more problems further down the line

Ufortunstely the initial business case for Valleys wiring was made assuming the use of cascaded 313's, the sulking about wanting something brand started immediately. There's a. Mentality down there amongst local politicians that the valleys have be deliberately disinvested in andthere "owed" investment in new of everything. queue shiny new tram brochures.

In fairness, I wasn't overly impressed by the idea of electrification lead to us having even older trains than the diesels we have now - it was all a bit absurd. But I think there were alternatives. Given that the West Midlands franchise winner is likely going to want to get rid of the 323s, they'd be ideal. But I guess the demand at the moment is for brand new trains and trams everywhere and to hell with the consequences of scrapping perfectly good, recently refurbished older ones that people wouldn't even know were built in the 1990s

We've gone from one extreme to the other purely because of media and political pressure over superficial age figures, and the problem is once you give new trains to the North and new trains to the West Midlands, you can't not give something new to South Wales as well. It seems the Welsh government is unwilling to put its hand in its pocket to pay for it to be done properly, so we're going to get the cheap alternative which is going to set us even further behind the rest of the UK

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well imo there's a good reason why we should not regard tram conversion particularly highly. Tram lines are not maintained to the same standard. Trams aren't held to the same safety standards as trains - see Croydon. They're nearly all run DOO and they don't have toilets or comfortable seats

By all means, build more tram lines in cities. Get people out of cars. But the seemingly inevitable conversion of the Valley Lines to tram lines is a huge backwards step for the customer. They're a city centre mode of transport, not for journeys of over an hour from the heads of the valleys to Cardiff and beyond. If they want to sort out the Valleys rail network's issues, they should pay up and do it properly, not cause more problems further down the line.


In fairness, I wasn't overly impressed by the idea of electrification lead to us having even older trains than the diesels we have now - it was all a bit absurd. But I think there were alternatives. Given that the West Midlands franchise winner is likely going to want to get rid of the 323s, they'd be ideal. But I guess the demand at the moment is for brand new trains and trams everywhere and to hell with the consequences of scrapping perfectly good, recently refurbished older ones that people wouldn't even know were built in the 1990s

We've gone from one extreme to the other purely because of media and political pressure over superficial age figures, and the problem is once you give new trains to the North and new trains to the West Midlands, you can't not give something new to South Wales as well. It seems the Welsh government is unwilling to put its hand in its pocket to pay for it to be done properly, so we're going to get the cheap alternative which is going to set us even further behind the rest of the UK

Well when your obsessed with doing 1970's road schemes you can't afford a 21st century public transport scheme.

 

[gareth950]

Ufortunstely the initial business case for Valleys wiring was made assuming the use of cascaded 313's, the sulking about wanting something brand started immediately. There's a. Mentality down there amongst local politicians that the valleys have be deliberately disinvested in andthere "owed" investment in new of everything. queue shiny new tram brochures.

There will be a glut of EMU's available in early 2020s from Greater Anglia. 21 x 4 car 360s, which can be passed off as new trains, more 321s than anyone needs, which the recent refurb has shown can be made to look like new, both classes are perfect length for the valleys at around 20m.

323s are 23m so not suitable north of Radyr but fine for Rhymney and Ebbw Vale.

To not take advantage of the glut of EMU cascaded vehicles going in the next few years is again, madness. There seems to be a lot of madness in Welsh Govt re: transport policy. I do wonder whether the people making the decisions and Ken Skates himself, have ever been up to the heads of the valleys by train to imagine what they are going to do with the decisions they make.

 

[gareth950]

Well imo there's a good reason why we should not regard tram conversion particularly highly. Tram lines are not maintained to the same standard. Trams aren't held to the same safety standards as trains - see Croydon. They're nearly all run DOO and they don't have toilets or comfortable seats.

RMT have already expressed their objection to the takeover of the valley lines by Welsh Govt / the new ODP.
There are a lot of guards on the valley lines. DOO trams will mean they are no longer needed. Tram ticket inspectors will not be paid as highly as safety critical guards.
But the Welsh Labour Govt will be desperate to avoid a showdown with the RMT.
A shiny new, 'transformational' franchise that starts with strikes - and strikes using Pacers and Sprinters will mean NO services can run.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know but the limit between Central and the junction near Queen Street is still there regardless of how services are routed, linked together etc. Its not neccessary to increase capacity aside from more rolling stock and using the new paths but I am pretty skeptical when people say there is no tram route through Cardiff. A tram line down the A662 or Cross Street (Manchester) sounded like a stupid idea but it works well. From an outsiders perspective there is sufficient spare track and platforms to run trams from Queen Street to Cardiff Bay and wide enough roads to run from both stations to Central via Callaghan Square. West bank of the Taff would be the most obvious route to link the Central, Principality and Castle and then alongside North Road. Thats a fairly decent loop without needin to run through pedestrianised streets, much of which would probably only allow for a single track. Converting Coryton to Heath then street running to Cathays would help to balance West-East train flows.

I am not saying tram is the best idea but that its easy for people to say its impossible when similiar challenges have been overcome elsewhere.

I think you need to actually visit Cardiff. What a map or satellite view shows does not show the full story.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A shiny new, 'transformational' franchise that starts with strikes - and strikes using Pacers and Sprinters will mean NO services can run.

I'd argue, though, that the right thing overall should be done regardless of any threats. To me, that is probably heavy rail electrified at 25kV using used EMUs of some kind (I like the idea of spare Dessies), though I'm not massively opposed to light rail either. Whether guards are present or not is quite another question.

 

[Chester1]

I think you need to actually visit Cardiff. What a map or satellite view shows does not show the full story.

The Welsh Government seem confident a viable route can be found. I have heard enough rubbish opposing Metrolink expansion to take anti tram arguments with a pinch of salt. I will admit though its been a very long time since I have been to anywhere in South Wales. Have there been any reports published arguing trams are or are not technically viable? I am struggling to think of any city were trams have been proposed were a system has been ruled due to a lack of any viable route rather than poor economics for all options.

 

[Llanigraham]

The Welsh Government seem confident a viable route can be found. I have heard enough rubbish opposing Metrolink expansion to take anti tram arguments with a pinch of salt. I will admit though its been a very long time since I have been to anywhere in South Wales. Have there been any reports published arguing trams are or are not technically viable? I am struggling to think of any city were trams have been proposed were a system has been ruled due to a lack of any viable route rather than poor economics for all options.

Do they? I've seen no proposals for a tram route through Cardiff City Centre.

 

[gareth950]

The Welsh Government seem confident a viable route can be found. I have heard enough rubbish opposing Metrolink expansion to take anti tram arguments with a pinch of salt. I will admit though its been a very long time since I have been to anywhere in South Wales. Have there been any reports published arguing trams are or are not technically viable? I am struggling to think of any city were trams have been proposed were a system has been ruled due to a lack of any viable route rather than poor economics for all options.

The Welsh Govt are not confident, or know what they are doing, otherwise trams would have been specified from the start. The problem here is that trams are not being proposed specifically for Cardiff, trams are being proposed for the south Wales valleys, where trams will simply be using the existing heavy rail network and there will be no on-street running at all. The valleys are a very different region geographically and are NOT part of or an extension of Cardiff, as many of the suburbs of Manchester are of the city.

Street running in Cardiff city centre is only being proposed because once the valley lines reach Queen St, trams won't be allowed any further. Somehow trams will have to get to Central station. Queen Street station is high above street level, hence why Prof Cole thinks trams should divert at Cathays presumably through a soon to be built massive University student centre.

 

[Chester1]

Do they? I've seen no proposals for a tram route through Cardiff City Centre.

There was a Cardiff Metro impact study that suggested a route between Queen Street, Bay and Central with stops at South Loudon and Herbert Street. I would hope that the repeated mention of the possibility of light rail means they have done more research behind the scenes.

The Welsh Govt are not confident, or know what they are doing, otherwise trams would have been specified from the start. The problem here is that trams are not being proposed specifically for Cardiff, trams are being proposed for the south Wales valleys, where trams will simply be using the existing heavy rail network and there will be no on-street running at all. The valleys are a very different region geographically and are NOT part of or an extension of Cardiff, as many of the suburbs of Manchester are of the city.

Street running in Cardiff city centre is only being proposed because once the valley lines reach Queen St, trams won't be allowed any further. Somehow trams will have to get to Central station. Queen Street station is high above street level, hence why Prof Cole thinks trams should divert at Cathays presumably through a soon to be built massive University student centre.

I dare you to tell someone from Rochdale that they are a Manc...! Rochdale and Bury are satellite towns rather than part of the city proper, Oldham and Ashton are similiar but perhaps more intergrated with Manchester. Salford is legally a city but basically everyone outside of Salford knows its an extension of Manchester! I agree that out to the Valleys is too far for a tram journey but a tram system could plausibly extend slightly outside the built up area of Cardiff.

 

[daodao]

There was a Cardiff Metro impact study that suggested a route between Queen Street, Bay and Central with stops at South Loudon and Herbert Street. I would hope that the repeated mention of the possibility of light rail means they have done more research behind the scenes.



I dare you to tell someone from Rochdale that they are a Manc...! Rochdale and Bury are satellite towns rather than part of the city proper, Oldham and Ashton are similiar but perhaps more intergrated with Manchester. Salford is legally a city but basically everyone outside of Salford knows its an extension of Manchester! I agree that out to the Valleys is too far for a tram journey but a tram system could plausibly extend slightly outside the built up area of Cardiff.

Other than the ex-Cardiff Railway line to Coryton, all the surviving Valley Lines rail routes from Cardiff extend much further beyond the city centre than current (or proposed/possible) Metrolink lines in Greater Manchester, which has an integrated transport authority, unlike South-East Wales.

The primary purpose of Metrolink was in any case to link Manchester's short suburban rail lines, which terminated at stations on the edge of the city centre, by short tramways penetrating the city centre. Cardiff has no need for this as the existing principal stations (Central and Queen St) are well sited for the city centre and already linked.

The valley towns are clearly separate from Cardiff in a way that Manchester's satellite towns are not. There is a railway tunnel over 1 mile long between Caerphilly and Cardiff. The alternative road climbs to over 800 feet over Caerphilly Mountain.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Welsh Government seem confident a viable route can be found. I have heard enough rubbish opposing Metrolink expansion to take anti tram arguments with a pinch of salt. I will admit though its been a very long time since I have been to anywhere in South Wales. Have there been any reports published arguing trams are or are not technically viable? I am struggling to think of any city were trams have been proposed were a system has been ruled due to a lack of any viable route rather than poor economics for all options.

To help you its worth remembering that the Head of the Valleys towns like Merthyr and Aberdare are the same distance from downtown Cardiff as are places like Huddersfield and Wigan from downtown Manchester. Anyone proposing metrolink services from them or the likes of Warrington/Crewe/Buxton?

There too far out for light rail. Also there isn't anywhere worth mentioning as a destination in central Cardiff that's not a sub 10 minute walk from Cathays, Queen St, Central or the Bay. The existing heavy rail stations are actually well placed. Street running would be a (very) expensive gimmick and not produce any benefits as the existing service already has them. Just what is the point of conversion?

I'm not against light rail around Cardiff (and Swansea) on new alignments or disused ones as there are many areas with poor public transport and poor access to the rail network but messing with something that isn't broke (apart from carriage lengths) is plain stupid.

 

[HowardGWR]

To help you its worth remembering that the Head of the Valleys towns like Merthyr and Aberdare are the same distance from downtown Cardiff as are places like Huddersfield and Wigan from downtown Manchester. Anyone proposing metrolink services from them or the likes of Warrington/Crewe/Buxton?

There too far out for light rail. Also there isn't anywhere worth mentioning as a destination in central Cardiff that's not a sub 10 minute walk from Cathays, Queen St, Central or the Bay. The existing heavy rail stations are actually well placed. Street running would be a (very) expensive gimmick and not produce any benefits as the existing service already has them. Just what is the point of conversion?

I'm not against light rail around Cardiff (and Swansea) on new alignments or disused ones as there are many areas with poor public transport and poor access to the rail network but messing with something that isn't broke (apart from carriage lengths) is plain stupid.

That's powerful post. Could you make a suggestion for such an inner city tram service?

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's powerful post. Could you make a suggestion for such an inner city tram service?

To put this in context your poster is someone who use to visit business's in and around Cardiff and South Wales. I would try and do public transport where I could but its very much a Swiss Cheese with holes it and that for someone who was experienced in hunting down bus timetables etc and was willing to try.

Pentwyn/Cardiff Gate Business Park for example was a painful near an hour bus ride from the City Centre, yet you were still south of the M4.

The industry and business premises between the Docks and the mouth of the Rhymney river south of the South Wales Main line is another area hard to access

 

[Envoy]

For those of you not familiar with the centre of Cardiff - here is a satellite view:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4785214,-3.1789279,899m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

As you can see, Cardiff Central and Queen Street stations are just a short walk from the main shopping and business areas as well as the stadium. The main central area is a pedestrian zone - so why would anybody want trams screeching on the streets which are by and large packed with people?
The roads around this pedestrian zone are packed with with traffic - especially buses. The number 6 bus does a perfectly good job of doing a kind of figure of 8 route between the Bay area and the city centre whilst the present railway from Queen Street provides a direct link.

Mention has been made of the Plasdwr development out to the NW of the city. This, along with other developments north of M4 J33 cannot be served by trams easily as they would have to use congested roads through Llandaff & Fairwater. The only answer for a more rapid transit system from these development areas - in what is now pleasant countryside, would be to demolish about 15 houses in Fairwater and build a new rail line to connect with the City Line. Now, surely, you cannot put trams on this route as they would be entering the city from the west - on lines that Network Rail will retain as part of the Vale of Glamorgan diversionary route. That means, that ‘normal’ trains would have to run on any new rail route out to Plasdwr, Cregiau etc. In view of the fact that Network Rail keep upping the costs of a similar rail link to Portishead from Bristol, I really can’t see this happening. Until such time as a new rail link is built between the City Line and Cregiau, I think that all development in this area should be scrapped. The LDP as cooked up by the Welsh Government in cahoots with Cardiff Council is not fit for purpose in this area. I also note that none of the plans for Plasdwr or the development north of J33 show any locations for proposed rail stations - in the unlikely event that such a line is ever built.

 

[gareth950]

Well when your obsessed with doing 1970's road schemes you can't afford a 21st century public transport scheme.

The latest road proposal is a £100 million link road from junction 34 of M4 to Cardiff Airport, which don't forget the Welsh Govt still owns, and is still dead in comparison to nearby Bristol airport. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/100m-m4-cardiff-airport-link-13316762

There's also pressure in Dinas Powys in the Vale of Glamorgan for a by-pass there, rather than focussing on improving the rail service through Cardiff - Dinas Powys - Barry with say, 4 - 6 car EMUs instead of the current 2 car pacers and 150s, that would encourage people out of their cars.

No long term thinking at all, just the usual from politicians with what can be easily achieved in one election cycle to be used as a vote winner next time around.