Class 345 progress

[class387]

Passed several 345s today in passenger service.

Does anyone know if more 345 diagrams actually ran, and what they were if they did? Perhaps someone could find out with TRUST?

 

[dk1]

Does anyone know if more 345 diagrams actually ran, and what they were if they did? Perhaps someone could find out with TRUST?

Definatly more running but sorry I have no idea. Just watching them approach me on 1P33/34.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It's beginning to look like the 345s are having no less problems than the 700s. That is neither unexpected nor indicative of their ultimate reliability in full service.

Iether these problems arnt as well documented or this is not true. Not questioning your statement though as you most likely know more than me. I certainly havnt noticed 345s bringing parts of London to a standstill and the one I went on weeks ago was a smashing little performer.

 

[absolutelymilk]

But hold on a second. We are constantly being told that new trains are ultra ultra reliable and will never break down so surely they should be ultra reliable straight out of the box....

Can you link to where someone has said this?

 

[AM9]

Iether these problems arnt as well documented or this is not true. Not questioning your statement though as you most likely know more than me. I certainly havnt noticed 345s bringing parts of London to a standstill and the one I went on weeks ago was a smashing little performer.

How many 345s are there running on the GEML, three, four? So far, apart from driver/route training, (where diagrams are selected to cause as little distrubance to scheduled services as possible) the trains have been limited to a single passenger-carrying off-peak return journey from Liverpool St. to Shenfield, i.e. 40 miles. Even those few runs have been withdrawn on several days, with informed speculation about issues on the trains. Comments here have compared that performance so far as nowhere as bad as the class 700s where trains have had failures in full passenger service although nowhere near all failures have been attributed to the trains themselves. They are running over 20 diagrams each covering typically 600 miles per day, by next month all Thameslink services are due to be provided by class 700s.
If class 345's were running the Thameslink service through the core, - based on their current reliability performance, those same parts of London would also be "brought down", to use your expression.
To establish the relative reliability of both types of train, one needs to compare the number of miles/running hours per (attributed) failure. It seems that both TOCs are quite secretive about such data, but so far, I can't see any indication that the class 700s are actually worse than the few running class 345s.

 

[AM9]

But hold on a second. We are constantly being told that new trains are ultra ultra reliable and will never break down so surely they should be ultra reliable straight out of the box....

If you do believe that, you must have been taken in by promoters or salesmen of new trains.
If you know anything about the reliability of complex systems, you would know that to be a wrong assumption.
Maybe you could share with us your source of such information that has lead to you forming that opinion.

 

[hassaanhc]

Definatly more running but sorry I have no idea. Just watching them approach me on 1P33/34.

There appeared to be one on this 2C57 1732 Gidea Park to London Liverpool Street

(Before anyone gets excited about the delay, it was due to a major signalling failure)

 

[JonathanH]

There was a report on the end forum of a 345 working 0807 Liverpool Street to Gidea Park. This appears to be part of an all day diagram. However, the service out of Liverpool Street appears to have fallen apart at around 6pm so difficult to say what happened after that point.

 

[321over360]

gotta say they are damn nice trains, luckily i was out doing something in ilford and happened to catch a 2Z train due at Ilford which was a class 345 and i must say aside from the shoddy PIS system (which i suspect is TFLs doing as alike to the LO 378 fleet) they are damn good trains, if only the PIS was like that on the class 315s -
ie:
This is Ilford
This train is for London Liverpool Street, the next station is Manor Park
We are now approaching Manor Park

The PIS is the only annoyance as it keeps saying "This is the train to Liverpool Street if the train is dwelling for a while" and is alike to the over the top announcements on the Class 378s. They should be either like the current or like the S stock where you dont go over the same stuff in the station - something evident on the 378s East London Line routes in the ex LUL bit with the short platforms where the annoucement contradicts itself.

Aside from the PIS as i said, a damn nice train with decent air conditioning and the non longitudinal seats are not too bad, obviously TFL love their longitudinal on their National Rail fleets hence why i wouldnt do Stratford to Richmond but would do Mile End to Richmond/Kew on a S Stock as the S stock seats are much comfier, again this is down to TFL Specs which are usually at the discomfort of the passengers themselves which was a surprise with the S stock but given they were ordered during the privatisation era i can see why the spec was better for the seats on them than the 378s which are uncomfortable after time, as will be the 345s, but this is TFLs spec so the blame lies with them and them alone

 

[class387]

gotta say they are damn nice trains, luckily i was out doing something in ilford and happened to catch a 2Z train due at Ilford which was a class 345 and i must say aside from the shoddy PIS system (which i suspect is TFLs doing as alike to the LO 378 fleet) they are damn good trains, if only the PIS was like that on the class 315s -
ie:
This is Ilford
This train is for London Liverpool Street, the next station is Manor Park
We are now approaching Manor Park

The PIS is the only annoyance as it keeps saying "This is the train to Liverpool Street if the train is dwelling for a while" and is alike to the over the top announcements on the Class 378s. They should be either like the current or like the S stock where you dont go over the same stuff in the station - something evident on the 378s East London Line routes in the ex LUL bit with the short platforms where the annoucement contradicts itself.

Aside from the PIS as i said, a damn nice train with decent air conditioning and the non longitudinal seats are not too bad, obviously TFL love their longitudinal on their National Rail fleets hence why i wouldnt do Stratford to Richmond but would do Mile End to Richmond/Kew on a S Stock as the S stock seats are much comfier, again this is down to TFL Specs which are usually at the discomfort of the passengers themselves which was a surprise with the S stock but given they were ordered during the privatisation era i can see why the spec was better for the seats on them than the 378s which are uncomfortable after time, as will be the 345s, but this is TFLs spec so the blame lies with them and them alone

I'm confused. When they were intrduced the complaint was that they were too consise and not detailed enough. Have they been changed?

 

[Via Bank]

I'm confused. When they were intrduced the complaint was that they were too consise and not detailed enough. Have they been changed?

It sounds like, if the train is standing in a station for a while, it will periodically announce its destination again (presumably for the benefit of people who have just arrived on the platform.)

I actually think this is quite a good idea.

We've already discussed why the language used by the PIS is deliberately minimalist.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not really. If a train is going to be ultra reliable you would expect it to at least match what it is going to replace. New stock seems to be crazily over engineered.

Give it time. It isn't as if past rolling stock has had fault free introductions. Plus train reliability tends to run on a curve. It will start terrible, get much better and then start to drop off again as it gets towards the end of it's life (the so called bathtub curve).

If 18 months from now the 345s (or even 700s for that matter) are still failing left and right then we'll have a problem. But until then it's annoying but hardly unexpected.

 

[class387]

It sounds like, if the train is standing in a station for a while, it will periodically announce its destination again (presumably for the benefit of people who have just arrived on the platform.)

I actually think this is quite a good idea.

We've already discussed why the language used by the PIS is deliberately minimalist.

Okay. The inclusion of the 'dwelling' comment in inverted commas confused me. I understand the minimalistic style - I prefer it!

 

[Bungle965]

Give it time. It isn't as if past rolling stock has had fault free introductions. Plus train reliability tends to run on a curve. It will start terrible, get much better and then start to drop off again as it gets towards the end of it's life (the so called bathtub curve).

If 18 months from now the 345s (or even 700s for that matter) are still failing left and right then we'll have a problem. But until then it's annoying but hardly unexpected.

We may see train punctuality slip in the next few years with the introduction of new rolling stock throughout the country while the new trains bed in.
Sam

 

[fat_boy_pete]

:roll: to

There was a report on the end forum of a 345 working 0807 Liverpool Street to Gidea Park. This appears to be part of an all day diagram. However, the service out of Liverpool Street appears to have fallen apart at around 6pm so difficult to say what happened after that point.

Yes it was. See picture of it's inbound peak journey from Gidea Park.
https://twitter.com/DamianKennedy1/status/900614797611454464

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much more computerised are the Aventras compared with the Electrostar family that they superseded?

 

[theking]

Do have to as it's pretty poor showing of tfl in regards to the 345.

All the adverts and fan fare said the new train's would be running may 2017 it's near enough September and what is there 3 or 4 trips a day.

Now technically they are running but to the layman that's not what was expected before launch.

It's a bit like them saying full service 2019 and running one train through the core every day.

 

[1D53]

345010 has produced on 2Z06 1156 Liverpool Street to Shenfield.

 

[dp21]

How much more computerised are the Aventras compared with the Electrostar family that they superseded?

I would imagine quite substantially (I don't know enough to quantify) but if you imagine the original electrostar product was introduced in the early 2000s it's likely a fair change.

I know that the 379s/387s of this world which are relatively new are probably more sophisticated than the 375s/357s etc but still I think there has been a substantial jump. Especially given that the vast part of the design team is software engineers I am lead to believe. That goes for Bombardier as well as the likes of Siemens.

 

[jon0844]

At least by not running them, it doesn't look like they have the same level of problems as the 700s.

 

[47802]

Do have to as it's pretty poor showing of tfl in regards to the 345.

All the adverts and fan fare said the new train's would be running may 2017 it's near enough September and what is there 3 or 4 trips a day.

Now technically they are running but to the layman that's not what was expected before launch.

It's a bit like them saying full service 2019 and running one train through the core every day.

The train is first of type so some issues are likely and I expect that was factored in to some degree, its not exactly critical they are in service at present given Crossrail opening is still some distance away.

 

[AM9]

At least by not running them, it doesn't look like they have the same level of problems as the 700s.

Well TfL has the luxury of a full fleet of class 315 trains for the current timetable allowing them to cover their embarrassment by keeping the new trains out of use at Ilford. That can only continue for so long as all available berthing space will soon be full of new deliveries.
Clearly, TfL, as a polished organisation, likes to manage its own public image better than GTR, but GTR had to use the new trains because their compatibility with the new core infrastructure needs to be snagged, rectified and verified before it comes into full use next year.
I don't believe that there will be any significant difference in the reliability of the class 345s compared to the class 700s (or any other new design train).The fact is that the Aventras for Crossrail haven't had any effective passenger use since they were delivered and they are already three months late according to the last stated introduction programme.

 

[Wivenswold]

Well TfL has the luxury of a full fleet of class 315 trains for the current timetable allowing them to cover their embarrassment by keeping the new trains out of use at Ilford. That can only continue for so long as all available berthing space will soon be full of new deliveries.
Clearly, TfL, as a polished organisation, likes to manage its own public image better than GTR, but GTR had to use the new trains because their compatibility with the new core infrastructure needs to be snagged, rectified and verified before it comes into full use next year.
I don't believe that there will be any significant difference in the reliability of the class 345s compared to the class 700s (or any other new design train).The fact is that the Aventras for Crossrail haven't had any effective passenger use since they were delivered and they are already three months late according to the last stated introduction programme.

It would be helpful if you could provide a link to support your comment that the project is three months late. I'd also appreciate it if you could quantify "effective passenger use" and how that compares with TfL documentation which defines how the initial units will be utilised during stage 1.

Thanks.

 

[Intellectual98]

Well TfL has the luxury of a full fleet of class 315 trains for the current timetable allowing them to cover their embarrassment by keeping the new trains out of use at Ilford. That can only continue for so long as all available berthing space will soon be full of new deliveries.
Clearly, TfL, as a polished organisation, likes to manage its own public image better than GTR, but GTR had to use the new trains because their compatibility with the new core infrastructure needs to be snagged, rectified and verified before it comes into full use next year.
I don't believe that there will be any significant difference in the reliability of the class 345s compared to the class 700s (or any other new design train).The fact is that the Aventras for Crossrail haven't had any effective passenger use since they were delivered and they are already three months late according to the last stated introduction programme.

If by 3 months late you are implying that the whole 315 fleet should have been replaced by 345 services in May, then you are completely wrong. The plan always is, and always was for a gradual introduction to minimize disruption due to the inevitable bugs in a new traction. If you replace a fleet with new traction all at once then any fault in the train can bring the entire line to a complete halt for days or weeks whilst the issue is resolved.

Introduction of the first service was a month late. This was primarily due to teething issues in the DOO systems which are completely new and untested on NR.

Iirc last person I asked told me deliveries of the trains are 1-2 months late. This is due in part to various modifications that have been needed after testing to fix issues, and also in part due to an extended testing regime taking place up north. It was difficult achieving the required amount of testing on the Liverpool Street-Southend route so more testing is now required before the trains reach Ilford.

 

[Wivenswold]

As above the blurb always read like the Aventras were going to be introduced gradually. "Big Bang" introductions usually go bad, First tried it with the 360s as I recall. After a few weeks of keeping them on the Clacton branch they were suddenly introduced en-masse and promptly sat down where they wanted shredding the service.

Any comparison with the Desiro City (based on the 15 year old Desiro family of trains) and the all new Aventra platform seems silly at best.

 

[dp21]

As above the blurb always read like the Aventras were going to be introduced gradually. "Big Bang" introductions usually go bad, First tried it with the 360s as I recall. After a few weeks of keeping them on the Clacton branch they were suddenly introduced en-masse and promptly sat down where they wanted shredding the service.

Any comparison with the Desiro City (based on the 15 year old Desiro family of trains) and the all new Aventra platform seems silly at best.

I believe the Desiro Cities are more akin to the Aventras than the original Desiros. Perhaps not in the traction equipment sense but certainly as far as computerisation is concerned. My basis for saying this is that both appear to be struggling at the moment with software issues.

I do, however, understand what you mean as the aventra is a completely new platform rather than a development of an older one.

A concern I do have is that the 345s had this whole "train zero" thing going on in Derby with the train systems tested prior to being built into the vehicles proper yet this still doesn't appear to produce a reliable train.

Finally (and sorry for the rant) allegedly the 345s were further delayed by this whole issue with bugs on the windscreens and the wipers not coping with them. Trivial but hopefully easy enough to rectify.

TL;DR I think it is fair to compare them but on the understanding that the systems and problems are different.

 

[Intellectual98]

A concern I do have is that the 345s had this whole "train zero" thing going on in Derby with the train systems tested prior to being built into the vehicles proper yet this still doesn't appear to produce a reliable train.

Finally (and sorry for the rant) allegedly the 345s were further delayed by this whole issue with bugs on the windscreens and the wipers not coping with them. Trivial but hopefully easy enough to rectify.

Two things, yes it is concerning that systems are having problems still, 9 months of testing on the line, and more in Derby should be producing better results.
I read that article, and it's not just bugs but bird droppings also causing issues. Should just be a software fix to increase the pressure in the wiper actuators, but not sorted yet.

AFAIK there are now 2 trains mon-fri running dawn to dusk including peak, but they can't run at night yet due to ongoing DOO issues. As winter rapidly approaches unless the issues are fixed then peak 345 services won't be running again.

The promise of 11 trains in service by end of September that TfL keep spouting on social media is highly unlikely, only 6 have been delivered and weeks of testing are needed before they can go in service.

I spoke to someone last week and each train running in service currently needs 2 drivers and 2 technicians on board in case of issues. That's obviously an unsustainable level of staffing for when the whole fleet gets introduced.

Not to mention testing on the core section should be starting within the next couple months which will take priority over service trains.

 

[Wivenswold]

I think far too many people are almost hoping these new trains will be a failure. Perhaps a history of the introduction of new rolling stock on our railway network wouldn't go a miss.

Can anyone remember a new type of train that hasn't had teething problems of one kind or another during introduction? Even the successful Class 321s which were the product of years of development of the Mk3 bodyshell had issues when introduced. As anyone trying to use one in the big freeze of 1991 will remember.

The attitude seems to be "They'll fail" rather than "They'll settle down". Perhaps it's just reflective of the reaction of us Brits when faced with change though.

 

[Techniquest]

That's nothing new, there's always going to be people who face denial when it comes to change, I think we all know the sort of people who declare "It won't happen!" with change. The "It'll never work, what a bad idea" attitude is rife in this sort of thing in the sort of people who are resistant to change.

Of course, some of us are open to exploring the new world, and something we'll all eventually reach. Even the most hardcore deniers will eventually end up going forward, whether through their own choice or made to move on. The rest of us already know what's going on and want to see it all work out well. It's this group of us, and I'd like to place myself in that group, that will get the rest on board. If they don't like it they can always go away eh?

End of the day, we can moan as much as we like about it, but change has to happen. Progress has to happen. I for one have been looking forward to the 345s since before I saw the artist impressions, and having had a ride from Liverpool Street to Brentwood since the trials started I like them. Yes I'll miss the 315s as they form part of the early years of the hobby for me, but they need to move and retire after decades of hard work.

The same has clearly happened with the 700s, probably will for a long time still yet, and certainly is with the 800 Series. I've been looking forward to the next generation of HST since 2003, way before I settled on anything for my favourite type of motive power. In a couple of decades I'll no doubt look forward to the next generation of something else, indeed I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with the Pacer replacement, and just as much so wondering what will replace the 150s one day.

This current era is certainly an exciting one to be involved in in the UK, lots of big chances and the last chance to enjoy some now-heritage motive power. The 345 and 700 haters will either learn to tolerate them and shut up or go away, the choice is theirs.

 

[matthewmacleod]

Very excited to see that the 0849 from Gidea Park is a 345 today (345008) - is this the first they’ve started replacing 315s on timetabled services?

Much less of a crush than normal - I think there will be a lot of happy commuters.