Update April 2018-Crossrail and Cycle carriage policy

[cjp]

The future is worse for cyclist.

At the moment I can get trains to Liverpool Street.
At the moment I can get trains to Paddington.

I can link the two either by cycling, or, outside rush hours, I can get a ride on H&C line.

I then continue my journey by bike.

Not in the future.

Despite planning to have dedicated areas for cycles Crossrail will no longer let me make such journeys.

Integrated transport going backwards

Tunnels being a problem? – I think not just blinkered thinking. (Think bikes on the district, Circle, East London and Heathrow Connect lines)

Why?

With a bit of hand washing in the first sentence this is what Crossrail think....

4. Cycle Carriage on Trains
4.1 The final policy on cycle carriage on Crossrail will be a matter for the Train Operating Company (TOC) responsible for the railway at that time. Crossrail is not currently in a position to be able to make commitments on the final cycle carriage policy that would be adopted by the TOC in the future
The project shares most subsurface stations with LUL and the working assumption is that there will be a ban on cycle carriage at all times between Acton Main Line and Stratford/Abbey Wood. Cycle carriage will be allowed on all other sections of Crossrail, but with peak hour restrictions as appropriate. Decisions on the restrictions on cycle carriage will be the subject of detailed development. A Crossrail route map showing these provisional arrangements, and based on TfL’s existing Cycle Carriage Map for the London Underground, is attached. 4.2 Crossrail trains are likely to include areas of flexible space within each train. This would be prioritised for the use of wheelchair users. However, it would combine wheelchair space with the capacity to carry prams, bicycles, other oversize luggage and standing passengers. Restrictions are likely to be required on the
carriage of tandems

It makes me cross.


Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs? - (I have no problem with wheelchair carriage but buggies and oversized luggage are not life changing items anymore than a bicycle.)

Who is doing this detailed development?
How does one make them see how stupid and inconsistent they are?


Source
http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/e/original/e02cyclecarriageandcycleparking.pdf

 

[telstarbox]

That's consistent with the London Underground policy - no bikes in deep tube sections.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycling-in-london/bikes-on-public-transport

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paddington isn't going to be shared, is it? I can see the reasoning at the deep Tube stations.

 

[313103]

The future is worse for cyclist.

At the moment I can get trains to Liverpool Street.
At the moment I can get trains to Paddington.

I can link the two either by cycling, or, outside rush hours, I can get a ride on H&C line.

I then continue my journey by bike.

Not in the future.

Despite planning to have dedicated areas for cycles Crossrail will no longer let me make such journeys.

Integrated transport going backwards

Tunnels being a problem? – I think not just blinkered thinking. (Think bikes on the district, Circle, East London and Heathrow Connect lines)

Why?

With a bit of hand washing in the first sentence this is what Crossrail think....




It makes me cross.


Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs? - (I have no problem with wheelchair carriage but buggies and oversized luggage are not life changing items anymore than a bicycle.)

Who is doing this detailed development?
How does one make them see how stupid and inconsistent they are?


Source
http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/e/original/e02cyclecarriageandcycleparking.pdf

What the companies would prefer you to do is not carry a bike on a train full stop. In days of yonder there was not that many restrictions on the carriage of bikes in fact when I was a guard on the chilterns there was no restrictions and your bicycle was permitted on even the busiest service.

Sadly with the introduction of DOO and the withdrawal of old stock that had a brake compartment restrictions slowly crept in and now on virtually every single service into or out of a London termini there is a restriction of some sort to the carriage of bicycles.

Now that the HSTs are slowly being replaced from GWR services and replaced by new class 800 trains expect to see even more restrictions on your train service from Paddington with your bicycle. FGW before the current rebranding exercise started to make carrying your bike as a compulsory ticket, it was enforced originally however it hasn't been as this now causes confrontation which then comes with delays as a result.

I have not seen what these new trains look like on cross rail, I don't even know how long these trains are going to be' but something tells me already that they are not long enough before they enter service. TFL will eventually push people underground literally when buses and taxis are permantly withdrawn from Oxford street (some changes have already been made in this event) as they will make this street a pedestrian only zone. I think TFL are just preempting crush loaded factors and introducing a policy at the beginning so that people are made aware of it at the very beginning.

 

[AndyW33]

Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs? - (I have no problem with wheelchair carriage but buggies and oversized luggage are not life changing items anymore than a bicycle.)
[/URL]

Well of course, as you must know, it doesn't really matter whether you have a problem with wheelchair carriage or not, it is a statutory requirement. This is not the case for cycles. Why not contact your MP?
And what exactly is oversized luggage? What is the maximum size that should be permitted? In case you've forgotten, Crossrail is intended to serve Heathrow. Airlines do have maximum sizes for luggage - if bags don't comply, they don't fly.
Should TfL place staff with measuring cages at every station?

 

[tbtc]

Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs?

^^ I could sympathise with the general tone until I got to this sentence ^^

Maybe because cyclists can cycle their bikes a couple of miles, which is an option unrealistic to wheelchair users?

Are you seriously asking why wheelchairs are allowed on Crossrail?

And really describing them as "politically correct"? You know it's generally not an option, people aren't using them as a status symbol?

You've just detracted from the point you were trying to make and made it sound rather selfish.

There are also good reasons why you'd want to discourage people carrying bikes down tight staircases etc, but you've already lost me at "politically correct wheelchairs".

 

[DarloRich]

The future is worse for cyclist.

At the moment I can get trains to Liverpool Street.
At the moment I can get trains to Paddington.

I can link the two either by cycling, or, outside rush hours, I can get a ride on H&C line.

I then continue my journey by bike.

Not in the future.

Despite planning to have dedicated areas for cycles Crossrail will no longer let me make such journeys.

Integrated transport going backwards

Tunnels being a problem? – I think not just blinkered thinking. (Think bikes on the district, Circle, East London and Heathrow Connect lines)

Why?

With a bit of hand washing in the first sentence this is what Crossrail think....




It makes me cross.


Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs? - (I have no problem with wheelchair carriage but buggies and oversized luggage are not life changing items anymore than a bicycle.)

Who is doing this detailed development?
How does one make them see how stupid and inconsistent they are?


Source
http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/e/original/e02cyclecarriageandcycleparking.pdf

overreaction? surely the answer is that the usual non fold up bicycle rules will apply?

BTW - carriage of wheelchairs is a statutory requirement. Despite what ,any cyclists seem to think they have no such mandated rights.

 

[theageofthetra]

Why not just do what the Dutch do and leave a £20 old clunker of a bike at each end of the rail journey?

I agree re your oversized luggage (you wouldn't get away with that in Japan for example) & massive show off prams comments - totally unsuitable for public transport. Both are lifestyle choices - disability isn't though .

 

[LAX54]

^^ I could sympathise with the general tone until I got to this sentence ^^

Maybe because cyclists can cycle their bikes a couple of miles, which is an option unrealistic to wheelchair users?

Are you seriously asking why wheelchairs are allowed on Crossrail?

And really describing them as "politically correct"? You know it's generally not an option, people aren't using them as a status symbol?

You've just detracted from the point you were trying to make and made it sound rather selfish.

There are also good reasons why you'd want to discourage people carrying bikes down tight staircases etc, but you've already lost me at "politically correct wheelchairs".

And I would have thought 100% of wheelchair users would happily swap their wheelchair to be able to ride a bike, or even walk distances !

 

[DarloRich]

Why not just do what the Dutch do and leave a £20 old clunker of a bike at each end of the rail journey?

I agree re your oversized luggage (you wouldn't get away with that in Japan for example) & massive show off prams comments - totally unsuitable for public transport. Both are lifestyle choices - disability isn't though .

exactly - a friend of mine does this. He bought two 57th hand cycles off the interweb for peanuts and chains them up at each end of his journey. If they get nicked it hardly matters. No risk to his multi thousand £ two wheeled carbon fibre flying machine then

 

[jopsuk]

I'm a cycle campaigner. I wish we had better facilities for cycles on trains.

But I'm realistic.

I'd like better cycle storage on intercity trains and on rural trains, services where I might take a nice bike with me for leisure purposes. On commuter services, especially London metro services, I accept that "space for bikes" is at the bottom of the priority list- space for people is far more important.

And I look to the country I want the UK to be aiming to emulate for cycling, The Netherlands, and see their total ban on bikes before 9:30am. Bikes on public transport only works if it's a tiny niche thing.

 

[cjp]

Originally Posted by cjp View Post

Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs? - (I have no problem with wheelchair carriage but buggies and oversized luggage are not life changing items anymore than a bicycle.)

^^ I could sympathise with the general tone until I got to this sentence ^^

Maybe because cyclists can cycle their bikes a couple of miles, which is an option unrealistic to wheelchair users?

Are you seriously asking why wheelchairs are allowed on Crossrail?

And really describing them as "politically correct"? You know it's generally not an option, people aren't using them as a status symbol?

You've just detracted from the point you were trying to make and made it sound rather selfish..

I think I was wrong to reference wheelchairs as I did and I offer my apologies.
What I wanted to put over was that wheel chairs need to be cvonveyed both because it is the right thing to do, and because the law requires it. (And so wheelchairs can be conveyed through the length of Crossrail)

My logic was if the purpose designed trains can carry wheelchairs (and large luggage) throughout the route what is problem with these trains carrying the cycles they are designed to carry into both Paddington or Liverpool street rather than force cyclists to disembark and take to the busy road for some three or four miles more than they do now?

It would be good to use the entire route as a cyclist but I am not at this time complaining about that. I would simply just like to still have what I now have

There are also good reasons why you'd want to discourage people carrying bikes down tight staircases etc, but you've already lost me at "politically correct wheelchairs"

And as to you more valid point:-
if wheelchairs can get down the stairs you refer to why not cycles? Or in lifts why not cycles?

 

[matt_world2004]

The future is worse for cyclist.

At the moment I can get trains to Liverpool Street.
At the moment I can get trains to Paddington.

I can link the two either by cycling, or, outside rush hours, I can get a ride on H&C line.

I then continue my journey by bike.

Not in the future.

Despite planning to have dedicated areas for cycles Crossrail will no longer let me make such journeys.

Integrated transport going backwards

Tunnels being a problem? – I think not just blinkered thinking. (Think bikes on the district, Circle, East London and Heathrow Connect lines)

Why?

With a bit of hand washing in the first sentence this is what Crossrail think....




It makes me cross.


Why are bikes seem as a problem but not oversized luggage or the politically correct wheelchairs? - (I have no problem with wheelchair carriage but buggies and oversized luggage are not life changing items anymore than a bicycle.)

Who is doing this detailed development?
How does one make them see how stupid and inconsistent they are?


Source
http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/e/original/e02cyclecarriageandcycleparking.pdf

Under tfl bylaws puschairs are not allowed on sections of the rail network where unfolded cycles are not allowed.

 

[313103]

Crossrail is intended to serve Heathrow. Airlines do have maximum sizes for luggage - if bags don't comply, they don't fly.
Should TfL place staff with measuring cages at every station?

Not true the main restriction is carry on luggage, you can take as much luggage as you want provided your prepared to pay extra baggage allowance and these go in the hold, something trains don't have anymore. Some passengers who will be using these trains will be families from international area and will often have upto four or five large suitcases as well as the maximum permitted luggage one can take on board, that equates to lots of space. As an aside I saw a picture posted on a well known social media site that showed luggage stowed against a door of a HST that had no room spare and you could just make out that it was a door. So people will often bring even the kitchen sink onto public transport.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's worth noting the same restriction applies between Drayton Park and Moorgate at all times, presumably due to the single bore tunnels and need to evacuate via the cab doors in an emergency situation.

 

[cjp]

I'm a cycle campaigner. I wish we had better facilities for cycles on trains.

But I'm realistic.

And I look to the country I want the UK to be aiming to emulate for cycling, The Netherlands, and see their total ban on bikes before 9:30am. Bikes on public transport only works if it's a tiny niche thing.

I am not unrealistic.
What Crossrail is aiming for is a greater restriction than now on trains into Liverpool Street and Paddington and total ban of regular cycles all day long between these NR stations despite the trains being designed to carry them. A ban until 0900 or 0930 I could understand but all day?

A lack of consistency or common sense is the only reason that springs to mind

 

[cjp]

It's worth noting the same restriction applies between Drayton Park and Moorgate at all times, presumably due to the single bore tunnels and need to evacuate via the cab doors in an emergency situation.

And in such a situation I guess people would not attempt to lug their heavy over-sized luggage along in the same way that in an a fire the instruction is not to tarry to collect personal items. The bulky luggage and cycles would just be left behind. And in the case of Crossrail in they would be left behind stowed in purpose designed areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And in such a situation I guess people would not attempt to lug their heavy over-sized luggage along in the same way that in an a fire the instruction is not to tarry to collect personal items. The bulky luggage and cycles would just be left behind. And in the case of Crossrail in they would be left behind stowed in purpose designed areas.

You've seen those photos of people running from a burning aircraft pulling their trolley bags behind them, right?

 

[jopsuk]

I am not unrealistic.
What Crossrail is aiming for is a greater restriction than now on trains into Liverpool Street and Paddington and total ban of regular cycles all day long between these NR stations despite the trains being designed to carry them. A ban until 0900 or 0930 I could understand but all day?

A lack of consistency or common sense is the only reason that springs to mind

There's something of a natural limit to the number of wheelchair users and other mobility restricted passengers wanting to use lifts. With the increasing numbers of people using bikes in London, the demand for bikes on the lifts at deep crossrail stations could be huge. That's the consistency- and for Crossrail, Paddington and Liverpool Street will be (relatively) deep level.

 

[telstarbox]

As someone who uses bikes, trains and sometimes bikes on trains, bikes are more of an obstruction than suitcases, being more of a long 'barrier' than suitcases which are more 'square' and so fit in corners more easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who uses bikes, trains and sometimes bikes on trains, bikes are more of an obstruction than suitcases, being more of a long 'barrier' than suitcases which are more 'square' and so fit in corners more easily.

The issue isn't bikes on trains, it's bikes in cramped deep level Tube-style stations and on escalators (potentially being dropped on people).

For that reason I'm surprised they aren't allowed as far as Paddington, and above ground at the other end.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's consistent with the London Underground policy - no bikes in deep tube sections.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycling-in-london/bikes-on-public-transport

Is it quite the same thing though? Presumably the 'no bikes in deep tube sections' is because of a combination of concerns about, tube trains being smaller than conventional trains, the deep tube sections tend to be the busiest sections, platforms are often narrow and themselves overcrowded in tube sections, and many stations have no lifts - only stairs or escalators.

Several of those concerns won't apply to Crossrail: Trains will be normal sized (presumably with luggage areas making it possible to position bikes so they don't block gangways), stations will all have lifts due to the requirement for step-free access, and platforms and corridors in the stations will be built to modern standards, and therefore wider.

What remains is the concerns about the crowds. On that basis, I can well see why they might wish to ban cycles in the central London section (say, between Paddington and Canary Wharf, possibly Stratford). But I'm struggling to see the justification for a complete all-day ban between - say Action Main Line and Paddington, or between Abbey Wood and Excel, where trains are going to be far less crowded for much of the day.

 

[Clip]

It would be good to use the entire route as a cyclist but I am not at this time complaining about that. I would simply just like to still have what I now have

?

And what do you have now? restrictions on when you can take your cycle onto tube trains? So its going to be no different really is it?

Of course you could always use your cycle for its intended purpose and ride between those two stations

 

[rebmcr]

OP can still make the same journey by changing at Stratford for a not-Whitechapel train, and by using a Paddington High Level - Acton connecting GWR service.

 

[InOban]

Am I not correct, but in the Netherlands you have to buy, yes BUY, a ticket for a nonfolding bike? If that were the case in the UK, TOCs would be much more willing to provide the space.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is one of the big concerns regarding bikes on deep level tube trains and on XRail the risk of bikes impeding the evacuation of passengers in an emergency?

 

[313103]

Is one of the big concerns regarding bikes on deep level tube trains and on XRail the risk of bikes impeding the evacuation of passengers in an emergency?

If that is the case why has there been no issue on London Overground trains between Whitechapel and Surrey Quays? It is underground, has the same risk of impeding passenger escape and the stations on this section are often very narrow.

 

[mattdickinson]

OP can still make the same journey by changing at Stratford for a not-Whitechapel train, and by using a Paddington High Level - Acton connecting GWR service.

As far as I am aware, either Ealing Broadway or Hayes & Harlington will be the first stop available from Paddington High Level after Crossrail opens.

 

[BluePenguin]

Well of course, as you must know, it doesn't really matter whether you have a problem with wheelchair carriage or not, it is a statutory requirement. This is not the case for cycles. Why not contact your MP?
And what exactly is oversized luggage? What is the maximum size that should be permitted? In case you've forgotten, Crossrail is intended to serve Heathrow. Airlines do have maximum sizes for luggage - if bags don't comply, they don't fly.
Should TfL place staff with measuring cages at every station?

Yes, I definitely think they should. That way large bags won't be blogging up the aisles and taking up standing room which won't be allowed to fly when they reach Heathrow anyway

 

[matt_world2004]

The 165s on the gwml are not realky suitable for cycles anyway. Usually end up blocking the door,