December 2017 Timetable

[Wilts Wanderer]

In response to a combination of an earlier post wondering if further improvements might be due later, and many forum debates about electrification, that four minutes off an hour's journey time is it as far as the improvements from the hundreds of millions spent on electrification go. There won't be any further decreases from Lime Street remodelling and the longer trains did not require electrification.

I must say, that's a pretty short-sighted opinion IMO but you're entitled to have it. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Jamesrob637]

This December, Northern should concentrate on services which need to be strengthened under the current timetable, given few if any frequency increases are taking place

Next May, and this is mainly for the separate May 18 onwards thread, Northern can look at/implement the frequency increases themselves.

 

[Greybeard33]

In response to a combination of an earlier post wondering if further improvements might be due later, and many forum debates about electrification, that four minutes off an hour's journey time is it as far as the improvements from the hundreds of millions spent on electrification go. There won't be any further decreases from Lime Street remodelling and the longer trains did not require electrification.

From the May 2018 timetable change, the expensive wires on the eastern part of the Chat Moss line will be used only by the hourly Lime Street to Crewe via Manchester Airport stopper, plus maybe an occasional Windermere to Airport 769. The semi-fast will become a diesel on the CLC line and the TPE 350s are to move to the Bolton line in February.

Eventually the Newcastle 185s will be replaced by 802 bi-modes, but they don't really need the wires.

 

[mikestone1952]

I would be surprised if there's any change until May 18. And until phase 2 (Stirling etc) is complete, it won't be possible to accelerate trains.

A rather peculiar track access amendment has appeared reducing evening north electric services allegedly because alternatives to Edinburgh _ Glasgow services are no longer required. I haven't checked the detail but I think the couple of trains that were extended from Bathgate are cut back, but that hardly seems to justify the argument.

Also in the Edinburgh area there is a new 22.15 Edinburgh-Manchester Airport, terminating Piccadilly on Thursdays.
I can't spot the balance which I believe is to run to Glasgow.

 

[Kite159]

From the May 2018 timetable change, the expensive wires on the eastern part of the Chat Moss line will be used only by the hourly Lime Street to Crewe via Manchester Airport stopper, plus maybe an occasional Windermere to Airport 769. The semi-fast will become a diesel on the CLC line and the TPE 350s are to move to the Bolton line in February.

Eventually the Newcastle 185s will be replaced by 802 bi-modes, but they don't really need the wires.

Are the Lime Street - Victoria services going, i.e. the ones which call at Eccles?

 

[Greybeard33]

Are the Lime Street - Victoria services going, i.e. the ones which call at Eccles?

See the Northern timetable plan for May 2018 thread - this was originally to be a December 2017 change but has been postponed to May 2018. The Chat Moss stoppers are to be rerouted to Piccadilly instead of Victoria, and joined to the Piccadilly to Crewe via Manchester Airport service. Presumably 319 operated throughout.

 

[Bovverboy]

I've noticed a service leave Man Vic up to 10 late and get to Lime Street on time and achieve PPM.

Any chance of a date/journey time (anytime within the last twelve months)? This I must see.

I have gone through RTT from start of service on Monday to lunch time today and have found only the following 319 departures from Lime Street which have left significantly late.

Monday: 2022 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed 6L; at Eccles 7L.

Today: 0848 Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay, departed 18L; still 18L at Earlestown.

Going back to Saturday 26 August (the most recent Saturday on which there would have been scheduled diesel-operated journeys on Lime Street to Manchester Victoria) I find the following.

0742 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed RT; at Eccles 1L.

1642 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed 1E; at Eccles 2L.

1739 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed RT, at Eccles 3L.

The above results appear to vindicate what I would have instinctively thought, i.e. the present timings are appropriate for electrics, but too tight for diesels, and any tightening will make them too tight for electrics.

 

[notlob.divad]

Any chance of a date/journey time (anytime within the last twelve months)? This I must see.

Here is a 319 catching up 9 minutes between Victoria and Liverpool from today.http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63004/2017/09/13/advanced

And another catching up 7
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62991/2017/09/13/advanced

 

[Kite159]

Here is a 319 catching up 9 minutes between Victoria and Liverpool from today.http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63004/2017/09/13/advanced

And another catching up 7
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62991/2017/09/13/advanced

Both look like the services skipped some stations on route to recover time

 

[RailAleFan]

Comparison tool for w/c Monday 6th November 2017 and Monday 5th February 2018

https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/

(at time of posting as of F660 09/09/17 data.atoc.org)

 

[Loop & Link]

Any chance of a date/journey time (anytime within the last twelve months)? This I must see.

I have gone through RTT from start of service on Monday to lunch time today and have found only the following 319 departures from Lime Street which have left significantly late.

Monday: 2022 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed 6L; at Eccles 7L.

Today: 0848 Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay, departed 18L; still 18L at Earlestown.

Going back to Saturday 26 August (the most recent Saturday on which there would have been scheduled diesel-operated journeys on Lime Street to Manchester Victoria) I find the following.

0742 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed RT; at Eccles 1L.

1642 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed 1E; at Eccles 2L.

1739 Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, departed RT, at Eccles 3L.

The above results appear to vindicate what I would have instinctively thought, i.e. the present timings are appropriate for electrics, but too tight for diesels, and any tightening will make them too tight for electrics.

I can assure you 100% that this has happened, from a service being up to 10 down and still arriving on time.

The last two would be easy to look for loss in running, passenger loading straight away, rather than not keeping to timings because of speed.

Edit: - Even found a screenshot I took because I was so impressed! - 1321 Lime St-Man Vic, 10 down at Lime St, 2 early at Victoria.

http://imgur.com/a/fiH6x

 

[Mugby]

I notice that the currency of some Northern timetable leaflets expires in October, rather than the usual December date. Penistone line and Leeds - Nottingham to name a couple.

Is there a reason for this?

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by notlob.divad
Here is a 319 catching up 9 minutes between Victoria and Liverpool from today.http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/trai...09/13/advanced

And another catching up 7
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/trai...09/13/advanced

Both look like the services skipped some stations on route to recover time

The first looks to have skipped Eccles and Patricroft, at least; the second Lea Green, Rainhill, and Whiston.

 

[Bovverboy]

I can assure you 100% that this has happened, from a service being up to 10 down and still arriving on time.

The last two would be easy to look for loss in running, passenger loading straight away, rather than not keeping to timings because of speed.

Don't follow you there, sorry.

Edit: - Even found a screenshot I took because I was so impressed! - 1321 Lime St-Man Vic, 10 down at Lime St, 2 early at Victoria.

http://imgur.com/a/fiH6x

What date did the above journey run? And how can we tell that it relates to Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria?

 

[Bovverboy]

I notice that the currency of some Northern timetable leaflets expires in October, rather than the usual December date. Penistone line and Leeds - Nottingham to name a couple.

Is there a reason for this?

Yes, some routes have an amended timetable for the leaf fall season, some don't.

 

[notlob.divad]

The first looks to have skipped Eccles and Patricroft, at least; the second Lea Green, Rainhill, and Whiston.

Yes i think there where some skipped stops on those. My bad for not checking thoroughly enough.

What i do know is that Preston->Liverpool services usually arrive early at Wigan, St. Helens and Huyton sitting for 3 and 4 minutes at times. They then often get checked on the approach to Edge Hill, and then stop in the tunnels approaching Lime Street to await access to a free platform. It is for those reasons that I feel there is scope to speed them up and would hope the Lime Street upgrade will provide some flexibilty for that.

The stopping services I don't think have the same potential, as the 319s feel as sluggish as the DMUs did when getting up to speed.

I disagree with the idea that the electrification project was therefore not worth it, because there are othet benefits. However maybe if we look to maximise the return in the future, we will look to be using units with a better acceleration profile than the 319s on the stopping services.

 

[Loop & Link]

Don't follow you there, sorry.



What date did the above journey run? And how can we tell that it relates to Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria?

Just take my word for it! I promise! I get paid to monitor these things! Also look at the timetable pretty easier to see the calling points and where they relate to. It was 24th May this year.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Loop & Link
Edit: - Even found a screenshot I took because I was so impressed! - 1321 Lime St-Man Vic, 10 down at Lime St, 2 early at Victoria.

http://imgur.com/a/fiH6x

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
What date did the above journey run? And how can we tell that it relates to Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria?

Just take my word for it! I promise! I get paid to monitor these things! Also look at the timetable pretty easier to see the calling points and where they relate to. It was 24th May this year.

First of all, a minor correction. May 24 was in the immediate aftermath of the Arena bombing, and the service in question ran to Oxford Road, not Victoria. However, that doesn't detract from the performance.

I'm reasonably satisfied that the train called at the usual stations. As to why it did so well, there are probably any number of explanations. One likely one is, I think, the fact that this was a Wednesday afternoon, and Wednesday afternoons can be seriously quiet.

The saving of time (over the schedule) between Lime Street and Eccles was seven minutes. The further apparent saving of five minutes between Eccles and Oxford Road was down to the soaking up of the five minutes recovery time.

However the fact that this particular journey managed to shave seven minutes off the schedule doesn't mean that the timetable is seven minutes slack; if it were, all late-running journeys would catch up seven minutes, and they don't. See my post of yesterday, 14:41.

 

[Class 170101]

A rather peculiar track access amendment has appeared reducing evening north electric services allegedly because alternatives to Edinburgh _ Glasgow services are no longer required. I haven't checked the detail but I think the couple of trains that were extended from Bathgate are cut back, but that hardly seems to justify the argument.

Was the extension of the A2B services to Edinburgh just to make crossing between Edinburgh and Glasgow easier during EGIP works on the E&G Route which closed the route from 21:00 on most nights of the week?

Also in the Edinburgh area there is a new 22.15 Edinburgh-Manchester Airport, terminating Piccadilly on Thursdays.
I can't spot the balance which I believe is to run to Glasgow.

The 22:15 is actually a Wednesday train. I thoight there was a later one to Glasgow but it seems not to be in RTT at the moment.

 

[Class 170101]

I disagree with the idea that the electrification project was therefore not worth it, because there are othet benefits. However maybe if we look to maximise the return in the future, we will look to be using units with a better acceleration profile than the 319s on the stopping services.

The EMUs were meant to be the way of creating capacity as no new DMUs were to be built so services couldn't be strengthened. Now however with GA FLIRTs, Class 195s and IEPs coming along.....

 

[Class 170101]

From the May 2018 timetable change, the expensive wires on the eastern part of the Chat Moss line will be used only by the hourly Lime Street to Crewe via Manchester Airport stopper, plus maybe an occasional Windermere to Airport 769. The semi-fast will become a diesel on the CLC line and the TPE 350s are to move to the Bolton line in February.

Eventually the Newcastle 185s will be replaced by 802 bi-modes, but they don't really need the wires.

Surely there will be services between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Victoria needing the wires usuing this route?

If the 802s are anything like the other bi-modes I have heard about they will need to use the wires as much as possible to save fuel for the un-wired parts. The fuel tanks don't seem that large.

 

[mikestone1952]

Was the extension of the A2B services to Edinburgh just to make crossing between Edinburgh and Glasgow easier during EGIP works on the E&G Route which closed the route from 21:00 on most nights of the week?



The 22:15 is actually a Wednesday train. I thoight there was a later one to Glasgow but it seems not to be in RTT at the moment.

Just to clarify it is the Wednesday night train thst terminates on Thursday morning.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely there will be services between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Victoria needing the wires usuing this route?

Not until the 802s arrive in 2019.
We could be down to 1tph EMU east of Earlestown from next May - the Lime St-Airport stopper.
There might still be some peak 350/397 workings via Chat Moss, and the Northern Cumbria service should be a 769 eventually.

There's plenty of slack in the current 319 schedules, particularly east of St Helens on both routes.
I'd like a timetable that doesn't require trains to stack up outside Lime St on the Down, which is where a lot of time evaporates at the moment.
Hopefully the new layout and signalling will be more flexible.
The Huyton 4th track also ought to mean that the sequencing of eastbound trains to Manchester can be improved.
Running Manchesters at 12/16/20 past the hour (and 22/25 via CLC) is not the best spread of departures.

 

[158756]

Blackburn gets it's half hourly daytime service in December (except for some reason there's no 12xx departure from Manchester).

However, the new services are 10 minutes slower than the Clitheroe trains between Manchester and Blackburn despite making one fewer stop. Partly this is allowances of 5 minutes, whereas the Clitheroe services have only 2 minutes (at Clitheroe), and partly because the Blackburn terminators stand at Darwen for several minutes while the Clitheroe services pass. Southbound the trains starting from Blackburn also wait at Darwen, but also at Bolton for 8 minutes, despite there appearing to be a clear path into Manchester 5 minutes earlier.

Does anyone know why this might be? Why the northbound Blackburn trains need so many allowances, the waits at Bolton, and why despite the work to extend the loop at Darwen trains still have to stand in the station for several minutes?

 

[Train man]

According to the ScotRail keeping you moving. That the Shotts Line would be getting a Sunday closure from 14th December to put the wires up. Someone would correct me to keep me right.

 

[Ianno87]

Blackburn gets it's half hourly daytime service in December (except for some reason there's no 12xx departure from Manchester).

However, the new services are 10 minutes slower than the Clitheroe trains between Manchester and Blackburn despite making one fewer stop. Partly this is allowances of 5 minutes, whereas the Clitheroe services have only 2 minutes (at Clitheroe), and partly because the Blackburn terminators stand at Darwen for several minutes while the Clitheroe services pass. Southbound the trains starting from Blackburn also wait at Darwen, but also at Bolton for 8 minutes, despite there appearing to be a clear path into Manchester 5 minutes earlier.

Does anyone know why this might be? Why the northbound Blackburn trains need so many allowances, the waits at Bolton, and why despite the work to extend the loop at Darwen trains still have to stand in the station for several minutes?

Southbound, the wait at Bolton is to hold the train back, as a Southport-Atherton-Victoria goes ahead through Salford Crescent.

Can't recall the signalling arrangement, but the 3 minute single line reoccupation at Darwen from/to Blackburn appears unneccesarily long - I would've thought one could depart Blackburn 1-2 minutes later and still vacate the single line in time (I think there is a trap point for the overlap of the signal for the Down loop). In both directions, the trains seem to be timed to avoid both trains arriving into the loop simultaneously - the new service has taken the 'hit' in both directions.

 

[Bovverboy]

Blackburn gets it's half hourly daytime service in December (except for some reason there's no 12xx departure from Manchester).

This can only be an error, since there is a unit scheduled to arrive Platform 5 at Stalybridge at 1143 (i.e. at the time appropriate to working a 1208 Stalybridge to Blackburn journey), and one scheduled to depart platform 3 at Blackburn for Victoria at 1333 (appropriate to following a 1325 arrival).

 

[lejog]

Not until the 802s arrive in 2019.
We could be down to 1tph EMU east of Earlestown from next May - the Lime St-Airport stopper.
There might still be some peak 350/397 workings via Chat Moss, and the Northern Cumbria service should be a 769 eventually.

Turning Manchester Victoria into a predominantly through running station to increase capacity was & is a good idea. In that context, electrifying 3 of the 4 lines west of the station before electrifying either of those to the east seemed somewhat odd.

 

[mikestone1952]

This can only be an error, since there is a unit scheduled to arrive Platform 5 at Stalybridge at 1143 (i.e. at the time appropriate to working a 1208 Stalybridge to Blackburn journey), and one scheduled to depart platform 3 at Blackburn for Victoria at 1333 (appropriate to following a 1325 arrival).

That happens to be the hour the Sandite runs to Blackburn so my guess is the adjustments to accommodate it are/were still being worked on - incidentally the pdf WTT shows it leaving Salford C at 12.25 and then 15.21 at Burnden Junction!

 

[Starmill]

According to the ScotRail keeping you moving. That the Shotts Line would be getting a Sunday closure from 14th December to put the wires up. Someone would correct me to keep me right.

Hi train man

I'm really sorry but I can't really understand the point you're trying to make here from your language. Are you simply pointing out some changes due to engineering work? Perhaps you could please clarify - or provide a link with a quote. Thanks!