December 2017 Timetable

[Train man]

Hi Starmill just repling about pointing out the engennering works that are shown the timetables depending on the operator. Link shown below.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/news/keeping-you-moving

 

[158756]

Southbound, the wait at Bolton is to hold the train back, as a Southport-Atherton-Victoria goes ahead through Salford Crescent.

Is that for next May when Atherton goes to 4tph? The December timetable I'm seeing has the Southport-Victoria at Salford Crescent at xx04 and the Blackburn at xx22 (which would make sense for a train every 15 minutes via Atherton at xx19?).

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by mikestone1952 on 13 Sep
Also in the Edinburgh area there is a new 22.15 Edinburgh-Manchester Airport, terminating Piccadilly on Thursdays.
I can't spot the balance which I believe is to run to Glasgow.

Just to clarify it is the Wednesday night train thst terminates on Thursday morning.

The only potentially balancing working I have found is 5S87 0104SO Glasgow Central to Corkerhill. That's compatible with there being a c.2100FO Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central, but there's no sign of the latter at the moment.

 

[splashoutradio]

Is that for next May when Atherton goes to 4tph? The December timetable I'm seeing has the Southport-Victoria at Salford Crescent at xx04 and the Blackburn at xx22 (which would make sense for a train every 15 minutes via Atherton at xx19?).

Not too sure of the exact timings for the May timetable change, however the Atherton line gets a half-hourly Sunday daytime service and an hourly evening service from December.

As a side note, please don't take the attached timetable as gospel, the current timetable includes a few duplicate journeys and does not take into account datesets (i.e. if a train only runs from date X to date Y.)

 

[Starmill]

The Sunday service on the Atherton line is now in. There will be 21 trains a day up from 9(!) The first train will be half an hour earlier from Manchester Victoria. The final service from Wigan Wallagate will be 2207 from the current 1705 (!) and the final service from Manchester Vic 2211 from the current 1811. A second train per hour will operate in addition to the all stations, skipping Ince, Hag Fold and Moorside.

 

[Starmill]

Sunday service on the Harrogate line sees the current Horsforth to Leeds services started back from Knaresborough. The 0944 from Horsforth to Leeds will start back from Harrogate at 0922, moving the first departure from Harrogate half an hour earlier. For some reason the 1014 still originates at Horsforth, so the half-hourly service at all stations from Karesborough to Leeds begins with the 1042 from Kanaresborough, which is an hour ealier than the current first service which is the 1114 from York.

It is worth noting that this means that departures from York towards Harrogate move half an hour around the clockface from xx14ish to xx45ish so don't get caught out by that one. New last train is 15 minutes later at 2146.

 

[Starmill]

Sticking with Sunday the full compliment of 2Mxx services from Leeds to Manchester Oxford Road and 2Exx from Manchester Oxford Road to Leeds are now uploaded.

This may mean that if the infrastructure is complete we can deduce that the first passenger service to use the Ordsall Chord will be the 0908 Leeds to Manchester Oxford Road, calling at all stations to Todmorden, then Littleborough, Rochdale, Manchester Victoria, Deansgate and Manchester Oxford Road

 

[Starmill]

New TransPennine serivces on Sunday:
0842 Manchester Piccadilly to Edinburgh, non-stop from Manchester Oxford Road to Preston (via Parkside)
0825 Glasgow Central to Manchester Victoria via Parkside, non-stop from Preston
1100 Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central


0900 from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh now goes to Glasgow Central
1000 Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central now goes to Edinburgh
1200 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh no longer calls at Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Oxford Road and starts at Manchester Victoria at 1213.

The 0842 from Manchester Piccadilly even means that the new first train from Preston to Lancaster is earlier at 0925 rather than 1002.

 

[Bovverboy]

This may mean that if the infrastructure is complete we can deduce that the first passenger service to use the Ordsall Chord will be the 0908 Leeds to Manchester Oxford Road, calling at all stations to Todmorden, then Littleborough, Rochdale, Manchester Victoria, Deansgate and Manchester Oxford Road

The 0908 does omit Low Moor, as do the 2135Su ex-Leeds and 2155Su ex-Oxford Road, which otherwise are all-stations trains.

Edit: I probably didn't make it obvious, but all the Leeds to Oxford Road trains omit Low Moor.

 

[Bovverboy]

The 0908 does omit Low Moor, as do the 2135Su ex-Leeds and 2155Su ex-Oxford Road, which otherwise are all-stations trains.

As things are showing at the moment there are going to be far more journeys to/from Oxford Road on a Sunday (12/13) than on Mondays to Saturdays (6). It seems strange that it should be thought a Sunday evening service be necessary, but not a Monday to Saturday .

On Mondays to Saturdays the stopping pattern is changed, with Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd and Littlenorough generally being dropped, although the 0718 ex-Leeds does have a Littleborough call, and also ones at Castleton and Mills Hill.

On Mondays to Saturdays (when the Liverpool stopper runs half-hourly) the xx.15 departure is scheduled to follow the ex-Leeds into Platform 5, but the xx.44 is banished to Platform 3 - even when there is no ex-Leeds around! Having both the ex-Leeds and ex-Liverpool stopper concurrently occupy Platform 5 will be okay if both are single units, but will they be? The Liverpool stoppers currently employ a mixture of singles and doubles.

 

[mikestone1952]

The Monday to Friday services from Leeds to Oxford Road are now mostly in and balance - the would-be 12.38 and 14.38 from Oxford Road are shown starting Victoria and I'm not sure if they were previously missing altogether or not.
;

 

[mikestone1952]

GWR have published a track access application which as well as re-combining services at Maidenhead and splitting Oxford semi-fasts at Didcot covers the extra 06.33 Paddington-Penzance and 12.04 return and the 19.12 Paddington-Bristol becoming SX instead of FO, but doesn't mention the other West of England changes.
These appear to be (ignoring changed intermediate calls) ;-
05.46 Exeter St Davids-Paddington starts from Plymouth at 04.51
05.09 Plymouth-Paddington via Bristol starts Exeter St Davids at 06.28
07.03 from Paddington reverts to Paignton and the 07.30 to Penzance, with neither serving Dawlish or Teignmouth - I would have thought that, and the extra train between Paddington and Taunton over the B&H would require an amendment to the contract or even the franchise agreement. 11.34 Paddington-Exeter replaced by a 10.35 Paddington-Paignton and 12.34 Paddington-Taunton.
10.00 Paddington-Paignton terminating at Bristol to balance a new 12.00 to Paddington, replacing the 07.41 from Penzance-Paddington, which now goes B&H.
10.30 Paddington extended to Weston-s-M.
13.03 Penzance-Paddington starts from Plymouth
14.13 Paignton-Paddington starts at 14.53
14.53 Exeter-Paddington is replaced by a 15.53 from Taunton and a 16.48 from Newbury.
16.02 Plymouth-Paddington starts from Penzance.
17.06 Paddington-Westbury extended to Frome, which oddly has no replacement for the call made by the 14.53 Exeter.
;
Although all the changes are shown from 1st January in OTT and NRT tables circulated, the application shows the extra Penzance to run from the timetable change, and the electrification associated changes from 2nd January (apart from one reference to 3rd!) presumably accounted for by a special service on 1st.

 

[High Dyke]

No doubt, despite the earlier trains on a Sunday from Nottingham to/from Grantham & Lincoln, once again the GN/GE improvements will be overlooked with no increase in services between Sleaford & Spalding, after 17:00, nor a Sunday service along the route.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by mikestone1952 on 13 Sep
Also in the Edinburgh area there is a new 22.15 Edinburgh-Manchester Airport, terminating Piccadilly on Thursdays.
I can't spot the balance which I believe is to run to Glasgow.

Originally Posted by mikestone1952
Just to clarify it is the Wednesday night train thst terminates on Thursday morning.

The only potentially balancing working I have found is 5S87 0104SO Glasgow Central to Corkerhill. That's compatible with there being a c.2100FO Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central, but there's no sign of the latter at the moment.

I'm inclined to suppose that there's going to be a c.2100NSSu Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central, given that I'm not exactly flushed with other ideas. The 0104SO Glasgow Central to Corkerhill may be appearing simply because it's a Saturday working, and Saturdays are always treated separately to Mondays to Fridays, even when the relevant workings are identical.

Also in evidence is a ThO 5S81 2054 Glasgow Central to Craigentinny - that would address the Glasgow/Edinburgh balance, at least for one night. As to why a working for Thursday should appear, but not one for MTWF, the only explanation I can come up with is that on Thursdays I believe the 1858 Manchester Airport to Glasgow is currently 185-operated, whereas on the other nights it is a 350.

Correction: The 1858 Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central is 185-operated on Fridays, in addition to Thursdays.

 

[lejog]

As things are showing at the moment there are going to be far more journeys to/from Oxford Road on a Sunday (12/13) than on Mondays to Saturdays (6). It seems strange that it should be thought a Sunday evening service be necessary, but not a Monday to Saturday .

Its hardly surprising though. This is the only Leeds to Manchester service on a Sunday, so Northern presumably have stock to spare compared with weekdays when the service is 3tph.

On Mondays to Saturdays the stopping pattern is changed, with Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd and Littlenorough generally being dropped, although the 0718 ex-Leeds does have a Littleborough call, and also ones at Castleton and Mills Hill.

These are just the existing call patterns. The Monday to Saturday service is simply an extension of a few of the existing xx.18 departures from Leeds, the Sunday an extension of the existing xx.51 departures from Leeds.

Having both the ex-Leeds and ex-Liverpool stopper concurrently occupy Platform 5 will be okay if both are single units, but will they be? The Liverpool stoppers currently employ a mixture of singles and doubles.

Pure guesswork, but the 2hr gaps in the weekday service may be due to a 3 car 158 currently being diagrammed. I would have assumed that the 8.56 arrival from Leeds at Oxford Rd would be a 3 car 158 or a 4 car service, especially given the extra calls it makes in Manchester. A double unit could be split at Victoria, I suppose.

 

[Starmill]

A 2100 service from Manchester Airport and a similarly timed service from Glasgow Central have been in the plan for TPE for quite some time. A service from Edinburgh instead seems quite a clever idea if you ask me. What exactly will happen remains to be seen.

 

[Starmill]

No doubt, despite the earlier trains on a Sunday from Nottingham to/from Grantham & Lincoln, once again the GN/GE improvements will be overlooked with no increase in services between Sleaford & Spalding, after 17:00, nor a Sunday service along the route.

Are these services still on their old timings, thus frequently arriving early, too?

 

[Thomas6187]

New TransPennine serivces on Sunday:
0842 Manchester Piccadilly to Edinburgh, non-stop from Manchester Oxford Road to Preston (via Parkside)
0825 Glasgow Central to Manchester Victoria via Parkside, non-stop from Preston
1100 Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central


0900 from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh now goes to Glasgow Central
1000 Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central now goes to Edinburgh
1200 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh no longer calls at Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Oxford Road and starts at Manchester Victoria at 1213.

The 0842 from Manchester Piccadilly even means that the new first train from Preston to Lancaster is earlier at 0925 rather than 1002.

These services only show as running on Sundays in just December

 

[Confused147]

What date do the Northern class 323's run out of their contract and go back to their owner? Won't this cause problems for Northern and their EMU stock if since they're being used and suddenly have to be taken out of service?

 

[Jamesrob637]

What date do the Northern class 323's run out of their contract and go back to their owner? Won't this cause problems for Northern and their EMU stock if since they're being used and suddenly have to be taken out of service?

Don't know but I'll miss them in a strange way when they're gone. Yes they need another carriage, and some air conditioning wouldn't go amiss, but their whirring sound and almost brutal acceleration are two characteristics familiar to South Manchester commuters.

 

[Starmill]

What date do the Northern class 323's run out of their contract and go back to their owner? Won't this cause problems for Northern and their EMU stock if since they're being used and suddenly have to be taken out of service?

It isn't until 2019 I don't think. Northern have new EMUs on order.

 

[cle]

Is it the first time Manchester Victoria has had regular Scottish services? Interesting.

 

[clagmonster]

Is it the first time Manchester Victoria has had regular Scottish services? Interesting.

No, all Scottish services went out of Victoria prior to the building of the Windsor Link. I think this is probably the first aside from diversions since then though.

 

[Bovverboy]

Is it the first time Manchester Victoria has had regular Scottish services? Interesting.

Prior to the Windsor Link being opened in 1988/9 Victoria would have been the principal Manchester station for Scottish services.
In more recent times this will be the first time Victoria has seen a regular Scottish service, indeed.

Edit: Oops! Beaten to the punch.

 

[Bovverboy]

A 2100 service from Manchester Airport and a similarly timed service from Glasgow Central have been in the plan for TPE for quite some time. A service from Edinburgh instead seems quite a clever idea if you ask me.

May I ask, why do you see a service from Edinburgh rather than Glasgow as being 'quite a clever idea'?

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
As things are showing at the moment there are going to be far more journeys to/from Oxford Road on a Sunday (12/13) than on Mondays to Saturdays (6). It seems strange that it should be thought a Sunday evening service be necessary, but not a Monday to Saturday .

Its hardly surprising though. This is the only Leeds to Manchester service on a Sunday, so Northern presumably have stock to spare compared with weekdays when the service is 3tph.

Quite, I'm certainly not questioning why the service isn't going to run to Oxford Road M/F peaks - not only would it mean rustling up an extra DMU (from where?) but there are already more than enough trains cluttering up Oxford Road station at peak times. Neither of those things would go against providing a post-peak service, M/S, though.

Talking of Northern's apparent lack of DMU sets, does anyone know what the M/F peak turnout is of such vehicles, and how that compares with the current stock? I lost count of the number of sets which were short-formed last Friday.
You get the feeling that there aren't enough spare sets to even cover routine maintenance, let alone eventualities.

 

[lejog]

Quite, I'm certainly not questioning why the service isn't going to run to Oxford Road M/F peaks - not only would it mean rustling up an extra DMU (from where?) but there are already more than enough trains cluttering up Oxford Road station at peak times. Neither of those things would go against providing a post-peak service, M/S, though.

Have you seen the Calder Valley Mon-Saturday post-peak weekday service? It remains at the level it has been for several decades now - a 1tph all-stations stopper calling at Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton etc etc. The Sunday service was improved a few years back, with the Todmorden Curve service picking up most of the local stops. Yes Northern would have the stock available, but they would be introducing a cross-Manchester service to stations from which it would be withdrawn in 6 months time.

When the service is extended to the airport, there are no franchise requirements for an evening weekday service. The first service runs very early (pre 6am arrival at the Airport), the last through trains are around 7-8pm. On Sundays there's a much later start and the same service throughout the day.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

New Saturday service on the Cotswold Line from 6th January - the 12.22 from Paddington to Oxford is extended to Moreton-in-Marsh, and then returns as a 14.50 departure. Fills a two-hour hole in the timetable. HST timings, but who knows if it'll be an HST or an IET...

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

For users of the Tyne Valley Line (Carlisle to Newcastle), there’s now 13 trains each way on Sundays from 10th Dec as opposed to the current 11.

Departures:
Carlisle - 0834, 0939, 1038, 1139, 1238, 1338, 1438, 1539, 1633, 1742, 1837, 1934 and 2038.

Newcastle - 0845, 0935, 1035, 1135, 1235, 1335, 1435, 1535, 1632, 1735, 1835, 1935 and 2034.

Looks like a slightly earlier start and later finish for Sunday services!

No changes to the Mon-Sat running, are these expected in May?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A cursory look at RTT for December 11 shows no changes to the Wrexham-Chester or Shrewsbury-Chester timetable.
So the "North-South Journey Time Reduction" project hasn't delivered yet, despite the completion of line speed upgrades.
Nor are they taking any advantage of the new double track section Saltney-Rossett (though it will help in any disruption).
Time for it to change, of course, but we are within 11 weeks of the timetable change now.