Questions after a CrossCountry trip yesterday

[BanburyBlue]

Hi all,

Yesterday I had a rare trip out from the office to go and see my boss (Banbury to Bournemouth). As I was travelling a few questions came to mind...

1, Why did CrossCountry stop terminating south coast services at Poole? Was this a commercial issue, or perhaps a practical one (no ability to switch engines and run around at Bournemouth). Something else?

2, Is coach F no longer the quiet zone? Sat in coach F on the way home and no stickers on the window, and no announcements?

3, Are there rules around faster trains overtaking local stoppers that are late? The service was late into Southampton because of a delayed local service in front. I'm sure there was a least one station (can't remember the name) where the local service could have been held. Is it now the case that express services are no more important than local services hence no reason to bump the locals (I have no issue with this but just wondering what the rules are)?

 

[74A]

Hi all,

Yesterday I had a rare trip out from the office to go and see my boss (Banbury to Bournemouth). As I was travelling a few questions came to mind...

1, Why did CrossCountry stop terminating south coast services at Poole? Was this a commercial issue, or perhaps a practical one (no ability to switch engines and run around at Bournemouth). Something else?

2, Is coach F no longer the quiet zone? Sat in coach F on the way home and no stickers on the window, and no announcements?

3, Are there rules around faster trains overtaking local stoppers that are late? The service was late into Southampton because of a delayed local service in front. I'm sure there was a least one station (can't remember the name) where the local service could have been held. Is it now the case that express services are no more important than local services hence no reason to bump the locals (I have no issue with this but just wondering what the rules are)?

1. Was over 10 years ago I think. From memory it was the realisation that the timetable with very short turnarounds at destination stations was unworkable. was part of a whole package of changes to make the timetable more robust. They stopped running to Swansea at the same time.

2. The quiet zone was withdrawn a while ago. There trains are often very busy and so people do not have the option to move to another carriage to make a call. By having a quiet zone it created conflict so now they ask you to be considerate to others when making calls talking etc.

3. Generally no they do not hold up local trains for late fast services. Especially if the two trains are operated by different TOC. One of the many benefits of privatisation. You might find it does still happen if the two trains are operated by the same TOC are there is an incentive to reduce overall late running as there will be a financial benefit.

 

[A0]

1. Was over 10 years ago I think. From memory it was the realisation that the timetable with very short turnarounds at destination stations was unworkable. was part of a whole package of changes to make the timetable more robust. They stopped running to Swansea at the same time.

2. The quiet zone was withdrawn a while ago. There trains are often very busy and so people do not have the option to move to another carriage to make a call. By having a quiet zone it created conflict so now they ask you to be considerate to others when making calls talking etc.

3. Generally no they do not hold up local trains for late fast services. Especially if the two trains are operated by different TOC. One of the many benefits of privatisation. You might find it does still happen if the two trains are operated by the same TOC are there is an incentive to reduce overall late running as there will be a financial benefit.

On 3 it will also depend on the infrastructure. If you've got a 2 track line then you're a bit stuffed for trying to engineer a faster train to get ahead of a slower one, particularly if there are no passing loops.

Clearly with a 4 track line it's a different matter and such options might exist.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Thanks all,

Yes, get that on a 2 track line you're stuffed, so was assuming a passing loop at station. Generally I think I agree - you can't say because I'm on an express I'm more important than you because you're on a local stopper.

When I travelled to Leeds a lot, I used to dread the CrossCountry via Coventry services. Wouldn't take much of a delay before the local Coventry to New Street trains was in front of you.

 

[nw1]

Thanks all,

Yes, get that on a 2 track line you're stuffed, so was assuming a passing loop at station. Generally I think I agree - you can't say because I'm on an express I'm more important than you because you're on a local stopper.

When I travelled to Leeds a lot, I used to dread the CrossCountry via Coventry services. Wouldn't take much of a delay before the local Coventry to New Street trains was in front of you.

It does depend on the circumstance though - if a late-running fast is held behind a stopper for a long stretch of line it could be feasibly delayed by another 20-30 minutes while if the stopper is held (if possible) to allow the fast to go first, then the stopper only ends up with a minor delay while the fast does not incur any additional delay.

The particular scenario I'm thinking of is in the Cosham area where I remember one or two occasions when they let a Portsmouth-Southampton stopper in front of a delayed fast (either diverted XC or Southern, can't remember which) just before Cosham, rather than holding it on the western side of the Cosham triangle to allow the fast to go first. This was a quiet time of day, Saturday or Sunday fairly late in the evening. Seemed to be a particular problem around or just after 2000. However in recent years this seems to have got better - if a fast is going to be significantly delayed by holding it behind stoppers then they as a rule let the fast go first if possible.

 

[BanburyBlue]

It does depend on the circumstance though - if a late-running fast is held behind a stopper for a long stretch of line it could be feasibly delayed by another 20-30 minutes while if the stopper is held (if possible) to allow the fast to go first, then the stopper only ends up with a minor delay while the fast does not incur any additional delay.

The particular scenario I'm thinking of is in the Cosham area where I remember one or two occasions when they let a Portsmouth-Southampton stopper in front of a delayed fast (either diverted XC or Southern, can't remember which) just before Cosham, rather than holding it on the western side of the Cosham triangle to allow the fast to go first. This was a quiet time of day, Saturday or Sunday fairly late in the evening. Seemed to be a particular problem around or just after 2000. However in recent years this seems to have got better - if a fast is going to be significantly delayed by holding it behind stoppers then they as a rule let the fast go first if possible.

So if an Express was hot on the heels of a local stopper, how much delay would be caused to the local stopper if it pulled up at the station and waited for the Express to pass?

 

[30907]

So if an Express was hot on the heels of a local stopper, how much delay would be caused to the local stopper if it pulled up at the station and waited for the Express to pass?

Varies according to the signalling headway and line speed. 3 minutes was standard many years ago at Headcorn on the SE. For a down train calling at both Shawford and Eastleigh on the Slow line it would be less.

Against that, the delay to a fast might be 2 mins per stop.

And there might be knock-on effects to consider when choosing the best option.

 

[R Trevithick]

Got shunted out of way at Earlstown the other day to allow another unit to fly past. Both Northern units

 

[xotGD]

My southbound VTEC service was put onto the Slow north of Peterborough to allow a non-stop VTEC service to pass us on Tuesday morning.

Seems that Platform 1 wasn't available, so we couldn't be overtaken in the station.

 

[swt_passenger]

3, Are there rules around faster trains overtaking local stoppers that are late? The service was late into Southampton because of a delayed local service in front. I'm sure there was a least one station (can't remember the name) where the local service could have been held. Is it now the case that express services are no more important than local services hence no reason to bump the locals (I have no issue with this but just wondering what the rules are)?

After Basingstoke the Bournemouth XC services run just behind the Waterloo to Portsmouth via Eastleigh service. The Southampton XC services run just behind the Waterloo to Poole service.

Neither of those SWRs are actually local stoppers in reality, there just aren't that many additional calls they can make, and the Portsmouth train you should have been behind leaves the route at Eastleigh. Can you tell us which train you were on, a couple had delays according to RTT. One example had the SWR Weymouth train running late at Basingstoke being followed by a similarly late SWR Portsmouth and a late SWR Exeter. All those 3 are class 1 trains, just like the XC!

If SWR were in total chaos of course anything might have happened on route, and in the Southampton area there's also GW, SN and SWT to from the Netley line and long distance freight to contend with.

 

[najaB]

3, Are there rules around faster trains overtaking local stoppers that are late?

I've been on a late running VT service that was put into the loops at Grayriggs to let an on time VT pass, and on another occasion I let an on time Dundee stopper leave Haymarket in order to catch the delayed Aberdeen VTEC service behind it - and sure enough the stopper was pulled aside at Dalmeny. So it does still happen.

 

[Harbouring]

If you were on 1o08 leaving Banbury at 0955 then it seems like it was stuck behind the Romsey to Salisbury via Soton leaving Eastleigh 10 late at 1131. The XC service came through Eastleigh at 11.34 so if the local was held it would have been probably my 15-17 late at Southampton. The XC had some late running leaving Winchester two late. If it had left Winchester RT then it might have been put in front but the 6 minute wait for the train to pass might have been too much to hold an already late (and usually quite well loaded service)


You might have been on a different XC but this example does show the hard job signallers face dealing with fasts, semi fast and slows and regular freight that involve crew changes at Eastleigh.

 

[TimboM]

It does depend on the circumstance though - if a late-running fast is held behind a stopper for a long stretch of line it could be feasibly delayed by another 20-30 minutes while if the stopper is held (if possible) to allow the fast to go first, then the stopper only ends up with a minor delay while the fast does not incur any additional delay.

Happens a fair bit at Winsford on the WCML. Heading north, the line reduces from 4-track to 2-track just before the station. The London Midland stoppers to Liverpool are timed to run behind the non-stop Virgins to Liverpool/Scotland; but if a Virgin is a few minutes late and behind the LM they'll hold the LM in the Slow line just south of the station before it narrows to 2-tracks and let the VT get through.

Otherwise, the VT would be crawling behind the LM as it stopped at Winsford, Hartford and/or Acton Bridge on the 2-track section and easily add another 10 mins to its delay if not more. Doing it the way they do, the VT can keep going at 100mph+ towards Warrington/Runcorn.

 

[PeterY]

In the past on a GWR stopping service from Bristol to Weston Super Mere, the train has been signaled into the loops, just outside Yatton, to allow a Cross Country service to overtake.

 

[BanburyBlue]

After Basingstoke the Bournemouth XC services run just behind the Waterloo to Portsmouth via Eastleigh service. The Southampton XC services run just behind the Waterloo to Poole service.

Neither of those SWRs are actually local stoppers in reality, there just aren't that many additional calls they can make, and the Portsmouth train you should have been behind leaves the route at Eastleigh. Can you tell us which train you were on, a couple had delays according to RTT. One example had the SWR Weymouth train running late at Basingstoke being followed by a similarly late SWR Portsmouth and a late SWR Exeter. All those 3 are class 1 trains, just like the XC!

If SWR were in total chaos of course anything might have happened on route, and in the Southampton area there's also GW, SN and SWT to from the Netley line and long distance freight to contend with.

I was on the 06.55 from Banbury which was due into Bournemouth at 09.15.

 

[swt_passenger]

1. Was over 10 years ago I think. From memory it was the realisation that the timetable with very short turnarounds at destination stations was unworkable. was part of a whole package of changes to make the timetable more robust. They stopped running to Swansea at the same time.

That's definitely the main reasoning, but it was slightly earlier than you recall. The 'Operation Princess improvements", first came in for September 2002. But it was already acknowledged to have failed by early 2003, when the rationalisation happened.

The 1S76 website that deals mainly with the history of the XC Brighton service quotes a VT media release here, dated 16 Jan 03, which states restructuring would be completed on 18 May 03 (presumably the summer timetable change date that year) and includes the line "Virgin Trains will no longer serve Portsmouth, Paddington, Poole, Didcot Parkway or Solihull,":

http://www.1s76.com/1S76 2003.htm

I seem to remember that the early part of 2003 saw certain series being gradually pulled some at short notice, it was all a bit embarrassing for Virgin...

Back when it was going to be the brave new world of rail travel, Chris Green wrote a parliamentary briefing in June 2002 talking about the September 2002 launch, including:

Service Frequency

7. The entire CrossCountry timetables is to be re-written on 30 September to create the new regional network in which train service frequencies will almost double overnight and many journeys accelerated. The new CrossCountry timetable is code-named Operation Princess and represents one of the biggest national timetable changes in the last 30 years. The North East will be one of the main beneficiaries of the upgrading with a doubling of train frequencies throughout the region

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmtran/782/782ap42.htm

I must remember the above links for the next time this comes up for discussion...

Just to clarify something that has often come up in past discussions, Operation Princess was the name used by Virgin for the intended improved timetable. People sometimes use the term (wrongly IMHO) to describe the "post 2003" reductions to their route map...

 

[swt_passenger]

I was on the 06.55 from Banbury which was due into Bournemouth at 09.15.

Interesting, so that's 1O02 and it's six late by Winchester but the SW Portsmouth service in front was on time.

And 10 late at Parkway, but now following the Romsey - Salisbury service that IS an all stations stopper and was also running late.

Can't explain that away easily, there was nothing running ahead until Eastleigh, so I wonder why did the XC lose all that time over the Basingstoke to Eastleigh leg?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What year did Virgin stop using 47s on services that used to goto Poole?

 

[swt_passenger]

What year did Virgin stop using 47s on services that used to goto Poole?

i have no idea. i wasn't using the railway much at all back then. Someone else might know

 

[route101]

What year did Virgin stop using 47s on services that used to goto Poole?

2002 id say

 

[joncombe]

I think some XC services still do go to Poole, but as ECS so no passengers are carried. I've seen them pass through the station. Not sure why as I would have thought they can turn at Bournemouth. I've often wondered why these services can't run in service to Poole given they are going there anyway.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think some XC services still do go to Poole, but as ECS so no passengers are carried. I've seen them pass through the station. Not sure why as I would have thought they can turn at Bournemouth. I've often wondered why these services can't run in service to Poole given they are going there anyway.

There are no XC trains neither loaded or ECS going to Poole

 

[swt_passenger]

I think some XC services still do go to Poole, but as ECS so no passengers are carried. I've seen them pass through the station. Not sure why as I would have thought they can turn at Bournemouth. I've often wondered why these services can't run in service to Poole given they are going there anyway.

There was a slightly different timetable for a while where some Sunday services ran to Poole and back ECS, but IIRC it stopped quite a few years ago

 

[BanburyBlue]

Interesting, so that's 1O02 and it's six late by Winchester but the SW Portsmouth service in front was on time.

And 10 late at Parkway, but now following the Romsey - Salisbury service that IS an all stations stopper and was also running late.

Can't explain that away easily, there was nothing running ahead until Eastleigh, so I wonder why did the XC lose all that time over the Basingstoke to Eastleigh leg?

Must admit, I'm a little confused. I've just checked RTT and the Romney Salisbury service can't be described at direct!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What year did Virgin stop using 47s on services that used to goto Poole?

i have no idea. i wasn't using the railway much at all back then. Someone else might know

2002 id say

If it was 2002 then would the services that used to goto Poole have gone over to using Voyagers and been cut back to Bournemouth at the same time as part of Operation Princess?

 

[30907]

Must admit, I'm a little confused. I've just checked RTT and the Romsey Salisbury service can't be described at direct!

It was Romsey-Eastleigh-Totton IIRC for a number of years so basically a cross-Southampton service. I imagine it is quite busy heading into Southampton at that time of day, so letting it delay the XC by 3 minutes or so (to Redbridge) beats the 5min it would have incurred sitting in the platform at Eastleigh.

 

[route101]

If it was 2002 then would the services that used to goto Poole have gone over to using Voyagers and been cut back to Bournemouth at the same time as part of Operation Princess?

Im sure the voyagers went to Poole . In more recent times they had services to Weymouth during the London Olympics .

 

[Ianno87]

If it was 2002 then would the services that used to goto Poole have gone over to using Voyagers and been cut back to Bournemouth at the same time as part of Operation Princess?

I think 47 haulage ended in early 2002. It wasn't a 'big bang' change, but a progressive conversion of existing diagrams over to Voyagers starting in mid-2001. Voyagers then served Poole regularly as part of the Operation Princess timetable recast in September 2002 until Poole was removed in May 2003.

I believe that for a while after this trains did routinely continue to Poole anyway as ECS to reverse - in the event of a late arrival in Bournemouth the trip to Poole and back was simply canned.

'The Pines Express' cab ride DVD (filmed September 2001) does give a brief history.

 

[swt_passenger]

If it was 2002 then would the services that used to goto Poole have gone over to using Voyagers and been cut back to Bournemouth at the same time as part of Operation Princess?

The "Operation Princess" timetable DID include Poole. It was the post Princess reduction that removed Poole.

But bear in mind (from the information I linked to earlier in the thread) that Op Princess didn't last very long at all. So Voyagers may only have run to Poole for a few months. In terms of railway history it is a bit of a footnote...