Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[rg177]

769s on the MetroCentre to Morpeth would be ideal, it's insane that what's keeping an all-electric Newcastle to Morpeth service from running at the minute however is the fact that the turnback siding at Morpeth has no wires.

 

[childwallblues]

319431 has been returned to Wolverton Works after its recent fire. As this unit is due to be coverted to a 769 FLEX could this be the next to be converted.

 

[TheWalrus]

I had another idea with the retention of the direct Bedwyn to London services using bi-modes, surely 769s could be a good alternative to the 800s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

769s on the MetroCentre to Morpeth would be ideal, it's insane that what's keeping an all-electric Newcastle to Morpeth service from running at the minute however is the fact that the turnback siding at Morpeth has no wires.

How much would it cost to fix that? 50p?

 

[47802]

I had another idea with the retention of the direct Bedwyn to London services using bi-modes, surely 769s could be a good alternative to the 800s?

I doubt they will want slower accelerating 100mph EMU's on the Reading London Section.

 

[northwichcat]

How much would it cost to fix that? 50p?

Given even a short section of OHE is usually priced in the millions - maybe £3m?

 

[TheWalrus]

I doubt they will want slower accelerating 100mph EMU's on the Reading London Section.

That would be the main issue but the only issue I can really foresee, assuming the 769 concept is a success.

 

[47802]

That would be the main issue but the only issue I can really foresee, assuming the 769 concept is a success.

Well that and the fact they are getting nice new trains under the current plan, and the Thames Valley isn't the North.

 

[simon7929]

769s on the MetroCentre to Morpeth would be ideal, it's insane that what's keeping an all-electric Newcastle to Morpeth service from running at the minute however is the fact that the turnback siding at Morpeth has no wires.

The rumour doing the rounds is the Flex trains could be used on a through Saltburn-Berwick service. Changing to the wires at Darlington. Like I say, it's something that's currently being looked at.

 

[47802]

The rumour doing the rounds is the Flex trains could be used on a through Saltburn-Berwick service. Changing to the wires at Darlington. Like I say, it's something that's currently being looked at.

Well considering there no requirement in current Northern franchise agreement to go to Berwick and only 1 train per day beyond Morpeth I will take that with a pinch of Salt

 

[TheWalrus]

Given even a short section of OHE is usually priced in the millions - maybe £3m?

Yes as jcollins says electrification is very expensive. Depending on how much it will cost to convert a 319 it may well be cheaper to do so than a short bit of electrification.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The rumour doing the rounds is the Flex trains could be used on a through Saltburn-Berwick service. Changing to the wires at Darlington. Like I say, it's something that's currently being looked at.

Aren't there places in the North-East where 150s can't be used (Don't recall exactly where, but it was something to do with curved platforms and door positions)? If this is the case presumably the same situation would apply to 769s too.

 

[TheWalrus]

Well that and the fact they are getting nice new trains under the current plan, and the Thames Valley isn't the North.

True lol, but the new EMUs aren't bi-modes afaik?

 

[coppercapped]

That would be the main issue but the only issue I can really foresee, assuming the 769 concept is a success.

It is not the only issue - but it is a very significant issue. Class 387s with a 110mile/h top speed and good acceleration will not lose more than one train path compared to a 125mile/h train. A less powerful 769 with a lower top speed will not be compatible with the post Class 80X timetables.

You may have missed the announcements that the Bedwyn service is being re-jigged. Not all the details are clear at the moment but it appears that there will be a one or two-stop service between Newbury and Paddington using the Class 387s, a (probably hourly) semi-fast service between Paddington and Exeter calling at Reading, Newbury, Bedwyn, Pewsey, Westbury and so on and an hourly all stations Newbury-Bedwyn shuttle service. Some faster services to Bedwyn may be operated by 5-car bi-modes as there are plans afoot to lengthen the reversing siding there. This may be for peak services but will certainly offer operational flexibility in case things go wrong.

Who needs the 769 on the Western? Another type of train, used in small numbers having a performance which is inadequate.

 

[TheWalrus]

It is not the only issue - but it is a very significant issue. Class 387s with a 110mile/h top speed and good acceleration will not lose more than one train path compared to a 125mile/h train. A less powerful 769 with a lower top speed will not be compatible with the post Class 80X timetables.

You may have missed the announcements that the Bedwyn service is being re-jigged. Not all the details are clear at the moment but it appears that there will be a one or two-stop service between Newbury and Paddington using the Class 387s, a (probably hourly) semi-fast service between Paddington and Exeter calling at Reading, Newbury, Bedwyn, Pewsey, Westbury and so on and an hourly all stations Newbury-Bedwyn shuttle service. Some faster services to Bedwyn may be operated by 5-car bi-modes as there are plans afoot to lengthen the reversing siding there. This may be for peak services but will certainly offer operational flexibility in case things go wrong.

Who needs the 769 on the Western? Another type of train, used in small numbers having a performance which is inadequate.

I know it's not ideal having a micro fleet or 100mph trai s operating on the same tracks as 125mph trains.

I thought the Exeter semi-fast service was going to be two-hourly not calling at Bedwyn. I think the plans have changed with bi-modes extending the London-Newbury services to Bedwyn.

 

[zn1]

Lob one on the windsor branch at slough, 3 mile max round trips....

 

[TheWalrus]

Lob one on the windsor branch at slough, 3 mile max round trips....

The only advantage would be it could use the wires running ECS to and from Slough!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the minimum number of coaches required (to house all equipment, gen packs etc)?

 

[D365]

What's the minimum number of coaches required (to house all equipment, gen packs etc)?

Bearing in mind that a standard Class 319 can't easily be shortened from four coaches...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well that and the fact they are getting nice new trains under the current plan, and the Thames Valley isn't the North.

North or South will get what they pay for - or at least pay for what they get !. The IEPs for instance are allegedly not cheap (as in overpriced) and Northern are not tied into the expensive contracts that the 800s and 801s come with. I expect there are many who would prefer a lower fare and put up with a 769. Of course in the grand scheme of things the wants of the others on the same lines using other trains come into play - particularly if the part of the UK network concerned is stretched to capacity.

 

[northwichcat]

North or South will get what they pay for - or at least pay for what they get !. The IEPs for instance are allegedly not cheap (as in overpriced) and Northern are not tied into the expensive contracts that the 800s and 801s come with. I expect there are many who would prefer a lower fare and put up with a 769. Of course in the grand scheme of things the wants of the others on the same lines using other trains come into play - particularly if the part of the UK network concerned is stretched to capacity.

The 769s will apparently be very expensive for local/regional bi-mode trains, with brand new FLIRTs or similar being a better long term investment.

 

[Townsend Hook]

The IEPs for instance are allegedly not cheap (as in overpriced)

Of course they are, the DfT negotiated the contract..

 

[Peter Sarf]

The 769s will apparently be very expensive for local/regional bi-mode trains, with brand new FLIRTs or similar being a better long term investment.

Appears the 230s are in the same bracket also. Its that long term vs short term thing again .

I prefer long term generally except when it puts off electrification :cry:.

 

[Jamesrob637]

North or South will get what they pay for - or at least pay for what they get !. The IEPs for instance are allegedly not cheap (as in overpriced) and Northern are not tied into the expensive contracts that the 800s and 801s come with. I expect there are many who would prefer a lower fare and put up with a 769. Of course in the grand scheme of things the wants of the others on the same lines using other trains come into play - particularly if the part of the UK network concerned is stretched to capacity.

The issue being the fares aren't as low up here as they used to be, and evening peak was introduced only 5 years ago or less, which in some cases doubled commuters' costs:-x

 

[AM9]

The issue being the fares aren't as low up here as they used to be, and evening peak was introduced only 5 years ago or less, which in some cases doubled commuters' costs:-x

It may not be apparent 'up there' but fares have been rising in much the same proportions down here as well. The basic concept of evening peak restrictions have been around for along tim but are being tightened up every year with fewer option for travel between 16:00 and 19:00. Some of the VTWC restricted trains could almost impinge on a late lunch.

 

[northwichcat]

I prefer long term generally except when it puts off electrification :cry:.

Bi-modes don't have to put off electrification. Look at TPE for instance - bi-modes from services to/via Newcastle could be transferred to Middlesbrough/Scarborough/Hull services once Manchester to York is fully electrified, then if the Middlesbrough and Hull branches get wired then it would allow bi-modes on South TPE with Manchester-Doncaster getting wired.

 

[158722]

Meanwhile, 319424 has been moved to Brush to join 434/456.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It may not be apparent 'up there' but fares have been rising in much the same proportions down here as well. The basic concept of evening peak restrictions have been around for along tim but are being tightened up every year with fewer option for travel between 16:00 and 19:00. Some of the VTWC restricted trains could almost impinge on a late lunch.

Your right. The evening peak in London has caught out a few people I know for quite a few years - mainly whilst riding 319s !. More by luck than judgement I have missed out on that trap not to mention travelling by the wrong TOC on the same route !.

Coupled with needing to be boarding the train xx seconds before the time in the timetable and knowing what the xx is for each TOC leads me to believe there should be a small course on how to achieve train travel.

I am looking forward to seeing one of the trusty 319s, I now miss, in its new guise next time I am up in greater Manchester. How soon ! (?).

 

[Mordac]

Your right. The evening peak in London has caught out a few people I know for quite a few years - mainly whilst riding 319s !. More by luck than judgement I have missed out on that trap not to mention travelling by the wrong TOC on the same route !.

Coupled with needing to be boarding the train xx seconds before the time in the timetable and knowing what the xx is for each TOC leads me to believe there should be a small course on how to achieve train travel.

I am looking forward to seeing one of the trusty 319s, I now miss, in its new guise next time I am up in greater Manchester. How soon ! (?).

No need to go to Manchester, you can do the same by a short walk down Euston road!

 

[Jamesrob637]

No need to go to Manchester, you can do the same by a short walk down Euston road!

He might wanna come "oop North" where we all talk to strangers