Why are the Class 700s so terrible?

[thomson787]

I disagree, after using the units I was impressed felt airy and comfortable.

 

[bramling]

The average journey time on Thameslink trains is 25 minutes, a figure that might reduce slightly when the full service is introduced. As I intimated above, there are compromises with all public transport which is required to provide service to all travellers.

This has been debated before, and it's heavily skewed by short journeys in the core. 25 minutes doesn't get you far out of London - barely St Albans on the Midland side, and barely Welwyn or Stevenage on the GN side depending on whether one is on a semi-fast or fast train. A lot of people will be travelling rather further than this.

 

[Domh245]

This has been debated before, and it's heavily skewed by short journeys in the core. 25 minutes doesn't get you far out of London - barely St Albans on the Midland side, and barely Welwyn or Stevenage on the GN side depending on whether one is on a semi-fast or fast train. A lot of people will be travelling rather further than this.

But that is the nature of averages - evidently there are an awful lot of people who use the services for fewer than 25 minutes which brings the average down...

 

[superkev]

For interest looking back at this thread 158 755 has been at Brodies Kilmarnock since 14th Aug so may be back soon unlike the tinworm infested designed for dwarf 155 the last one of which took over a year.
K

 

[Minstral25]

But that is the nature of averages - evidently there are an awful lot of people who use the services for fewer than 25 minutes which brings the average down...

If you remove journeys solely within the core - from say Kentish Town to Elephant and Castle (who will not be the bulk of users on the majority of the routes). I am pretty sure that the average journey would turn out to be around 50 minutes or longer, with many journeys of over an hour.

As you say nature of averages is pulled down by a group of journeys within the core but these are not representative of the real users of the service whose trains are being put through the core.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Oh gawd...not another "bash-the-700 thread" which astonishingly is on its 5th page...

Like 'em or hate em' they're gonna be around for a few years yet (unless the Chinese buy GTR and introduce their own trains....)

I commute on them every day and tbh, the comfort or discomfort of the seats are the least of my worries. I'm just glad when one turns up

For the last 3 weeks, I have gotten on the same train into town and the same train out; not one has been cancelled (yet)

Sometimes I would not have been able to get on a service had it been a 319

 

[J-2739]

Your comments mirror my thoughts (and earlier post in this thread), the interior could and should have a more welcoming feel.

Also, whilst full tables would take up too much space and impede circulation, seat-back flip tables should have featured - enough space for a small laptop, book or coffee etc.

The space to actually move around in a busy train - move down into a carriage and then later be able to get off without needing to be a contortionist and/or barging others - is a great improvement over the 319s.

They're fitting tables to some of them!

I actually like these trains a lot, they got nice seats and are really quiet as well (and even then, they make a nice noise). They are a bit lively at some places, and are getting a bit dirty (South Londoners!), I feel like they are an improvement to a 319 (ones up in Manchester) and they will do their job for the coming years. Definitely better than some of the garbage we have up here.

On another note, wonder how Berkshire commuters will respond when their precious 166s are replaced by 345s!

 

[NSE]

Most of my personal dislikes are solely because I'm a rail enthusiast and they are designed for getting a job done, of which they do well. Despite my own personal dislikes, I'm also incredibly happy to see them turn up and know I can get on the train during the peaks.

 

[radamfi]

Can anything be done about the window seat? I looked through the train this evening and many of the window seat passengers had their foot on the metal grill. At a bit of a stretch, you could argue that it is vandalism as you are supposed to put your feet on the floor. My tongue is sort of in my cheek but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the opinion of at least one Merseyrail enforcement officer. But where are you supposed to put your feet if there is someone next to you? Other modern trains don't have this problem.

 

[Antman]

Personally I think they're ok, nothing fantastic but better than the 319's. The biggest disappointment for me is the lack of phone charging sockets, shouldn't they come as standard nowadays?

 

[radamfi]

The biggest disappointment for me is the lack of phone charging sockets, shouldn't they come as standard nowadays?

They are in First Class, and also in the rear of the train labelled as First Class but open to all passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

.

I remember reading someone claim years ago that you couldn't couple 3 together because the middle unit would have no emergency exit at the end, and that was required in the Snow Hill tunnel. That must have been incorrect or the requirement dropped though, given the class 700 doesn't have end doors.

Fortunately, that tunnel is short enough that one part of a 700 is always out of the tunnel. Hence no need for end doors.

 

[physics34]

This has been debated before, and it's heavily skewed by short journeys in the core. 25 minutes doesn't get you far out of London - barely St Albans on the Midland side, and barely Welwyn or Stevenage on the GN side depending on whether one is on a semi-fast or fast train. A lot of people will be travelling rather further than this.

..and comfort should be measured on the longest possible journey not the average...as half of the travellers will be on that train for longer than the average

As mentioned the grinnues and Littlehamptons will have many people on-board for over 45 mins

 

[westcoaster]

Fortunately, that tunnel is short enough that one part of a 700 is always out of the tunnel. Hence no need for end doors.

Not to do with tunnel length. It’s was about access out the side in an emergency, there is plenty of room in snow hill tunnel to evacuate.

 

[Kite159]

They're fitting tables to some of them!

I actually like these trains a lot, they got nice seats and are really quiet as well (and even then, they make a nice noise). They are a bit lively at some places, and are getting a bit dirty (South Londoners!), I feel like they are an improvement to a 319 (ones up in Manchester) and they will do their job for the coming years. Definitely better than some of the garbage we have up here.

On another note, wonder how Berkshire commuters will respond when their precious 166s are replaced by 345s!

The Berkshire Commuters will be treated to the luxurious 387s first, before getting brought back down to earth with the bargain 345s

 

[bramling]

The Berkshire Commuters will be treated to the luxurious 387s first, before getting brought back down to earth with the bargain 345s

I wouldn't call anything with ironing board seats luxurious.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you remove journeys solely within the core - from say Kentish Town to Elephant and Castle (who will not be the bulk of users on the majority of the routes). I am pretty sure that the average journey would turn out to be around 50 minutes or longer, with many journeys of over an hour.

As you say nature of averages is pulled down by a group of journeys within the core but these are not representative of the real users of the service whose trains are being put through the core.

That is simply not the case. Yes there are some journeys over an hour, and there will be more of them when the Thameslink 2018 timetable is in full swing, but the average is not 50 minutes, far from over it.

Firstly a challenge. More than a quarter of current users are just in the core, and from 2018 that is likely to be a third or more. Why are these not representative? Indeed what is representative?

Starting with the Midland Mainline. The Thameslink stations north of St Pancras have around 40 million passengers a year. About 2 million of them use EMT from Bedford and the Lutons. Of the 38m left, 60% use stations from St Albans southwards. Most are going towards the core (with a notable flow to West Hampstead) and very, very few beyond (less than 1%). With a handful of station pair exceptions, all the London flows are less than 25 minutes, some are much less. The 10-20% that aren't going to London are usually making short trips - eg there are large flows from Elstree / Radlett / Harpenden to St Albans for schools. The average for this lot, including the non London journeys, is less than 20 mins.

North of St Albans, journey times are of course (mostly) above 25 minutes to London, but there's not as many of them, and times do vary. The faster TL trains to Bedford, which many Bedford commuters get if not on an EMT, are 50 minutes from St Pancras. Flitwick is 38 mins. Luton just under 30. And there's a lot of people doing Harpenden to St Pancras at, guess what, a little under 25 minutes. The average for this group, again including the non-London journeys, is a little more than 35 mins.

Taken together, then, the average for the north side of TL today is just over 25 minutes excluding the 'internal to core' passengers. Add them in and it's actually under 20.

On the south side it is more complicated for a number of reasons, not least the diversions away from London Bridge and the Southern routes serving many of the stations.

But, generally, the stations closer to London have much higher traffic than those further out. Post 2018 there will, for example, be an awful lot of people doing the hop Croydon to London Bridge on TL in 12-13 minutes. To take another example, Streatham has more than twice as many passengers as the entire Wimbledon loop (Wimbledon to Sutton exclusive). Even then a majority of people on the Wimbledon loop are actually only travelling to Sutton or Wimbledon (same goes for Haydons Rd to Wimbledon). Another one - Loughborough Jn (all Thameslink, mostly less than 10 mins to London) has as many passengers as Wivelsfield and Preston Park combined (shared with Southern, split directions). This all adds up to a lot of short journeys, which brings the average down.


Clearly, there are some journeys on TL that will be over an hour, indeed a very few will be over two. But they are (and will be) a small proportion of the total.

You can of course argue that the 700s are not designed for such journeys over an hour, and if I was feeling particularly benevolent I might agree with you, albeit in the same way that I might agree that a 450 isn't designed for a 2 hour trip from Portsmouth to Waterloo. However it would be very hard to argue that the 700s are not designed for journeys of up to 50-60 minutes, on routes where high capacity is paramount, and which accommodates 80%+ of all Thameslink journeys. That is what I think is representative.

Besides, it could be worse - you could commute from Richmond to Stratford, Amersham to Moorgate or Epping to Shepherd's Bush, all in rather less comfort than a 700.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not to do with tunnel length. It’s was about access out the side in an emergency, there is plenty of room in snow hill tunnel to evacuate.

Not the short single bores between City and Farringdon there isn't. There were some very interesting discussions with the LFB about it!

 

[All Line Rover]

Not the short single bores between City and Farringdon there isn't. There were some very interesting discussions with the LFB about it!

How would a 700 be evacuated in such a location in the event of a fire and/or explosion?

 

[bramling]

That is simply not the case. Yes there are some journeys over an hour, and there will be more of them when the Thameslink 2018 timetable is in full swing, but the average is not 50 minutes, far from over it.

Firstly a challenge. More than a quarter of current users are just in the core, and from 2018 that is likely to be a third or more. Why are these not representative? Indeed what is representative?

Starting with the Midland Mainline. The Thameslink stations north of St Pancras have around 40 million passengers a year. About 2 million of them use EMT from Bedford and the Lutons. Of the 38m left, 60% use stations from St Albans southwards. Most are going towards the core (with a notable flow to West Hampstead) and very, very few beyond (less than 1%). With a handful of station pair exceptions, all the London flows are less than 25 minutes, some are much less. The 10-20% that aren't going to London are usually making short trips - eg there are large flows from Elstree / Radlett / Harpenden to St Albans for schools. The average for this lot, including the non London journeys, is less than 20 mins.

North of St Albans, journey times are of course (mostly) above 25 minutes to London, but there's not as many of them, and times do vary. The faster TL trains to Bedford, which many Bedford commuters get if not on an EMT, are 50 minutes from St Pancras. Flitwick is 38 mins. Luton just under 30. And there's a lot of people doing Harpenden to St Pancras at, guess what, a little under 25 minutes. The average for this group, again including the non-London journeys, is a little more than 35 mins.

Taken together, then, the average for the north side of TL today is just over 25 minutes excluding the 'internal to core' passengers. Add them in and it's actually under 20.

On the south side it is more complicated for a number of reasons, not least the diversions away from London Bridge and the Southern routes serving many of the stations.

But, generally, the stations closer to London have much higher traffic than those further out. Post 2018 there will, for example, be an awful lot of people doing the hop Croydon to London Bridge on TL in 12-13 minutes. To take another example, Streatham has more than twice as many passengers as the entire Wimbledon loop (Wimbledon to Sutton exclusive). Even then a majority of people on the Wimbledon loop are actually only travelling to Sutton or Wimbledon (same goes for Haydons Rd to Wimbledon). Another one - Loughborough Jn (all Thameslink, mostly less than 10 mins to London) has as many passengers as Wivelsfield and Preston Park combined (shared with Southern, split directions). This all adds up to a lot of short journeys, which brings the average down.


Clearly, there are some journeys on TL that will be over an hour, indeed a very few will be over two. But they are (and will be) a small proportion of the total.

You can of course argue that the 700s are not designed for such journeys over an hour, and if I was feeling particularly benevolent I might agree with you, albeit in the same way that I might agree that a 450 isn't designed for a 2 hour trip from Portsmouth to Waterloo. However it would be very hard to argue that the 700s are not designed for journeys of up to 50-60 minutes, on routes where high capacity is paramount, and which accommodates 80%+ of all Thameslink journeys. That is what I think is representative.

Besides, it could be worse - you could commute from Richmond to Stratford, Amersham to Moorgate or Epping to Shepherd's Bush, all in rather less comfort than a 700.

One wonders if passengers doing journeys like Huntingdon to St Pancras or Foxton to St Pancras (both quite a bit over an hour) will qualify for a discount based on the fact their journey experience will be considerably downgraded. It's all very well talking about averages, but if one happens to travel up to London from places like these then you are getting the trains 100% of the time - except thankfully for the peak 365s, which under current plans not everywhere will get them, and no use off-peak, when the capacity argument is rather harder to justify.

Fortunately the massively over-ambitious timetable will prove to be the great undoing, and it seems the 21 displaced 365s don't have any alternative use lined up at present. I can't see GN users tolerating Thameslink levels of reliability for very long. Funnily enough I was thinking on my way home earlier on, I can't think of a single occasion this whole year when my GN train out of London has arrived at my destination more than a couple of minutes late, which is pretty impressive stuff. Pity things aren't quite so good in the up direction, but still massively better than the daily tale of woe that is the St Pancras International departure board for Thameslink.

 

[jon0844]

Personally I think they're ok, nothing fantastic but better than the 319's. The biggest disappointment for me is the lack of phone charging sockets, shouldn't they come as standard nowadays?

I think that's a genuine complaint. Power sockets should have been fitted throughout, and Wi-Fi should have been installed at the outset too.

GN users will have 387s with power throughout, a very good Wi-Fi service, and then see the 700s introduced that have neither (at least for now). While life will go on, it's a pretty easy way for passengers to have a good moan as it does appear rather bizarre.

If the 700s are retrofitted with power in the future, I think it may be fine to just offer USB charging ports in standard. They'll still charge modern laptops, and will be a lot less hassle for most people compared to managing 3-pin adapters and leads. Just use the USB lead, which many people may carry for connecting to a computer or portable battery pack anyway.

 

[jon0844]

..and comfort should be measured on the longest possible journey not the average...as half of the travellers will be on that train for longer than the average

As mentioned the grinnues and Littlehamptons will have many people on-board for over 45 mins

As has been said before, averages for Thameslink are pretty irrelevant. There will be loads of users travelling just within the core, or from the core to London Bridge and vice versa. These numbers will greatly skew the figures.

You've probably got similar numbers of people doing short journeys as long, and not that many in-between!

 

[takno]

I think that's a genuine complaint. Power sockets should have been fitted throughout, and Wi-Fi should have been installed at the outset too.

GN users will have 387s with power throughout, a very good Wi-Fi service, and then see the 700s introduced that have neither (at least for now). While life will go on, it's a pretty easy way for passengers to have a good moan as it does appear rather bizarre.

If the 700s are retrofitted with power in the future, I think it may be fine to just offer USB charging ports in standard. They'll still charge modern laptops, and will be a lot less hassle for most people compared to managing 3-pin adapters and leads. Just use the USB lead, which many people may carry for connecting to a computer or portable battery pack anyway.

Apart from one chromebook, which ended up getting recalled because it didn't work, I can't think of a single laptop that will charge from USB. Even if they could they would almost certainly need a high capacity output, which the outlets would likely not be. For the most part I don't think not charging laptops is a problem, and actually by the time anybody retrofits anything they'll probably be thinking of wireless charging.

All of that is a minor issue of course when I'm focused on trying to contort my body into the distinctly non-human shape that's provided for the mugs in the window seats

 

[jon0844]

I have a Chromebook that is charging via USB-C right now. It prefers a powerful supply for fast charging but will charge from a humble power bank at a slower rate just fine.

No reason they couldn't deliver a high output using USB-PD which will hopefully become more standardised as time goes on.

It does seem silly to have people carrying transformers when that can be put behind the USB port.

For those that need more, go first class which can keep the 230V sockets and also get USB ports.

 

[otomous]

One wonders if passengers doing journeys like Huntingdon to St Pancras or Foxton to St Pancras (both quite a bit over an hour) will qualify for a discount based on the fact their journey experience will be considerably downgraded. It's all very well talking about averages, but if one happens to travel up to London from places like these then you are getting the trains 100% of the time - except thankfully for the peak 365s, which under current plans not everywhere will get them, and no use off-peak, when the capacity argument is rather harder to justify.

Fortunately the massively over-ambitious timetable will prove to be the great undoing, and it seems the 21 displaced 365s don't have any alternative use lined up at present. I can't see GN users tolerating Thameslink levels of reliability for very long. Funnily enough I was thinking on my way home earlier on, I can't think of a single occasion this whole year when my GN train out of London has arrived at my destination more than a couple of minutes late, which is pretty impressive stuff. Pity things aren't quite so good in the up direction, but still massively better than the daily tale of woe that is the St Pancras International departure board for Thameslink.

Did they get a discount when the routes were electrified and went from loco hauled stock to EMUs?

Would it make sense to withdraw the carefully designed Thameslink fleet that suits the timetable for the off peak - given how long it will take to get those trains berthed then redeployed in the increasingly short gap between the peaks?

What will GN users do that Southern and South Eastern users don't currently do in reaction to a crowded system (designed for far less traffic) that struggles with the fact that they all need to travel to London and out again at the same time every day? That is, how will they not tolerate it?

I'm not sure from my experience that peak time bang on time arrivals are even possible any more given the demands for train numbers, lengths, terminal and junction bottlenecks, modern safety considerations and dwell times resulting from increased numbers travelling, with only small gains to be made from the current infrastructure - and even planned changes. There I've said it - and I believe this to be the case as certainly the Southern network is now OVER capacity.

And not being facetious, but if Thameslink does broadly work out okay, what will your reaction be?

 

[otomous]

I have a Chromebook that is charging via USB-C right now. It prefers a powerful supply for fast charging but will charge from a humble power bank at a slower rate just fine.

No reason they couldn't deliver a high output using USB-PD which will hopefully become more standardised as time goes on.

It does seem silly to have people carrying transformers when that can be put behind the USB port.

For those that need more, go first class which can keep the 230V sockets and also get USB ports.

Well yes, but that was the manufacturer's response to reducing weight in line with the tender, and because governments don't understand customer service, they agreed to their omission.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The advent of even a restricted Crossrail service in 2018 is a game changer for "the core" when suddenly North London to Canary Wharf becomes ever more desirable via Farringdon. Expect more business from say West Hampstead etc off the JLE to TLK / Crossrail , as well as new traffic.

(a friend who presently drives from Welwyn to Canary Wharf - parking in New Billingsgate at some cost - will take the train from his local station when the GN runs through)

Ergo - the 700's are much needed (I confess to largely travelling off peak and in both classes - and find them fine , and fast - though missing the obvious details much debated here) - the passengers seem more than happy ,especially those encumbered in the past by money saving 4 car operation in the high peak - (think Catford Loop !)

 

[westcoaster]

Not the short single bores between City and Farringdon there isn't. There were some very interesting discussions with the LFB about it!

There is. I only go through multiple times a day. The problem and requirement for front doors was the tunnel between Farringdon and barbican on the old Moorgate branch.

 

[theageofthetra]

I have a Chromebook that is charging via USB-C right now. It prefers a powerful supply for fast charging but will charge from a humble power bank at a slower rate just fine.

No reason they couldn't deliver a high output using USB-PD which will hopefully become more standardised as time goes on.

It does seem silly to have people carrying transformers when that can be put behind the USB port.

For those that need more, go first class which can keep the 230V sockets and also get USB ports.

Or just carry a spare battery.

 

[AM9]

One wonders if passengers doing journeys like Huntingdon to St Pancras or Foxton to St Pancras (both quite a bit over an hour) will qualify for a discount based on the fact their journey experience will be considerably downgraded. .../QUOTE]

There maybe is a small case for the off-peak fare to be reduced from the current £34.90 to encourage leisure travel that accepts restrictions to times when there is spare capacity. There's no justification in reducing the season ticket prices at £27.32 per return journey usually taken in the peak when it is already half the walk-up fare. The ever increasing peak demand on rail is precisely why trains services and infrastructure need to be designed for maximum capacity, ultimately at the expense of those who pay more but make less demand on both trains and infrastructure.

Fortunately the massively over-ambitious timetable will prove to be the great undoing, and it seems the 21 displaced 365s don't have any alternative use lined up at present. ...

Dream on! GTR or their successor TOCs are sure to waste money leasing retired rolling stock that replaces commuter stock at a prime age in its life just because a few commuters moan about their seats. At best, if the plan for MML + GN outer suburban services through the core becomes totally unworkable, as you seem to be wishing, there will be a switch of some class 700s to single ended services running into Kings Cross - just like Brighton to London Bridge runs, if ECML traffic allows it. So unless you personally switch to other modes, or travel via Liverpool St, get used to a long time commuting in class 700s. I believe that their Thameslink service life is expected to be 25 to 35 years.