RMT settle dispute with Greater Anglia

[the sniper]

What I wonder is if most of these people playing Guard during all these strikes actually appreciate that people really can get hurt if they make mistakes? Are they so high on getting a day out of the office to play trains and have such little respect for colleagues in operational grades that they view the whole thing as a laugh, easy, that they don't need to take seriously? Is it just a woeful lack of training that results is an utter disregard for doing the job properly, or is it the belief that they can get away with mistakes without consequence, because, it's not their job for a start, and they know industry figures would literally rip out their own eyes in order to ensure a blind eye is turned to the standard various operational incidents we see during strikes?

Do they think about what happens if their incompetence lands them in a court room if someone gets hurt? The industry will be willing to turn a blind eye to their plight then too, no doubt.

That the ORR and RSSB can stand silently by as these people are passed out to conduct safety critical duties with inadequate paper exercise qualification for the role they conduct says everything about their supposed independence and respect for safety...

 

[embers25]

What I wonder is if most of these people playing Guard during all these strikes actually appreciate that people really can get hurt if they make mistakes? Are they so high on getting a day out of the office to play trains and have such little respect for colleagues in operational grades that they view the whole thing as a laugh, easy, that they don't need to take seriously? Is it just a woeful lack of training that results is an utter disregard for doing the job properly, or is it the belief that they can get away with mistakes without consequence, because, it's not their job for a start, and they know industry figures would literally rip out their own eyes in order to ensure a blind eye is turned to the standard various operational incidents we see during strikes?

Do they think about what happens if their incompetence lands them in a court room if someone gets hurt? The industry will be willing to turn a blind eye to their plight then too, no doubt.

That the ORR and RSSB can stand silently by as these people are passed out to conduct safety critical duties with inadequate paper exercise qualification for the role they conduct says everything about their supposed independence and respect for safety...

Whilst I don't condone putting the public at risk to "play trains" as you put it, they weren't doing that at all. Regular guards make mistakes too and so have drivers, such as the GTR one, but you weren't complaining and demanding action after each of those were you and neither were the unions. One rule for comrades and another for managers it appears. After day one of supposedly so many issues, I'm sure there would have been action to stop day two if their actions were so dangerous but there wasn't. I haven't heard the RMT calling for an investigation into the GTR driver yet or the numerous other cases of early/unsafe dispatch by normal guards.

 

[Robertj21a]

What I wonder is if most of these people playing Guard during all these strikes actually appreciate that people really can get hurt if they make mistakes? Are they so high on getting a day out of the office to play trains and have such little respect for colleagues in operational grades that they view the whole thing as a laugh, easy, that they don't need to take seriously? Is it just a woeful lack of training that results is an utter disregard for doing the job properly, or is it the belief that they can get away with mistakes without consequence, because, it's not their job for a start, and they know industry figures would literally rip out their own eyes in order to ensure a blind eye is turned to the standard various operational incidents we see during strikes?

Do they think about what happens if their incompetence lands them in a court room if someone gets hurt? The industry will be willing to turn a blind eye to their plight then too, no doubt.

That the ORR and RSSB can stand silently by as these people are passed out to conduct safety critical duties with inadequate paper exercise qualification for the role they conduct says everything about their supposed independence and respect for safety...

Despite your rant, I would be very surprised if any of those involved would treat '....the whole thing as a laugh', nor are they '....high on getting a day out of the office to play trains'. I guess that the various authorities are well aware of the true facts (unless you believe that you know more than them) and will take action if necessary.
There is, I assume, nothing to stop you reporting each and every case that you know about (first hand) and ensuring that it gets properly looked into ?

 

[lordbusiness]

Of course 'proper' conductors never make mistakes.

 

[HH]

Despite your rant, I would be very surprised if any of those involved would treat '....the whole thing as a laugh', nor are they '....high on getting a day out of the office to play trains'.

Most of these people will not be "fat cat bosses" but rather bottom rung "management" (many probably don't manage anyone, just have a management grade); many probably earn less than the conductors. They're more likely to be panicking at being in control of a train for real than they are to be treating it as an away day.

There are very real questions about the quality of the training though; or perhaps that should be quantity - they usually get far less time than actual guards.

 

[John R]

I'm sure these people were not playing trains and were taking it very seriously. They were asked by their management to perform a task and did so. I suspect the abbreviated nature of their training will have contributed to the errors made by inexperienced people, but that doesn't mean they were having a laugh.

 

[LowLevel]

I've never felt aggrieved at the individuals involved because I know for a fact that plenty of them are told they're doing it rather than asked (I'm not saying where in the world but I know one or two have deliberately failed the psychometric tests to get out of it).

The people who sign off the abbreviated course, mentoring, settling in time and so on though should be on a disciplinary charge. There is no excuse for not using the approved guard's training. A guard is a guard.

 

[LowLevel]

Of course proper guards don't make any mistakes. They are completely infallible.

Of course they make mistakes. Not generally as many as appeared on Tuesday though and people bailing out of a train from a wrong side door release and 2 other dispatch irregularities in one trip is a bit of a horror story really.

 

[lordbusiness]

Of course they make mistakes. Not generally as many as appeared on Tuesday though and people bailing out of a train from a wrong side door release and 2 other dispatch irregularities in one trip is a bit of a horror story really.

The point I am making is that the RMT need to tread carefully. By splashing this incident all over the press they have set a precedent and have left the gates wide open for any incident involving a member of traincrew to be released to the press.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course they make mistakes. Not generally as many as appeared on Tuesday though and people bailing out of a train from a wrong side door release and 2 other dispatch irregularities in one trip is a bit of a horror story really.

Did people actually get out onto the track? Are they thick?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Did people actually get out onto the track? Are they thick?

Have you met the travelling public?

 

[embers25]

Did people actually get out onto the track? Are they thick?

2 did apparently.

 

[DeparturesBeck]

East Anglia Daily Times reporting:

Bosses at Greater Anglia are carrying out a full investigation after it emerged that a stand-in guard, replacing a striking RMT worker, unlocked doors on the wrong side of a train in an Ipswich platform.

The train, from Peterborough, had just pulled in to Platform One at the station. The track has a path on the opposite side from the platform that is used by staff to service the trains.

The guard unlocked the doors on the wrong side, which led to two passengers opening a door and climbing on to the path, before realising the mistake and locking them again before opening them on the correct side.

Although no one was hurt, the RMT said such a mistake could have had “potentially disastrous” consequences – and said all incidents should be reported.

Richard Dean, Train Service Delivery Director for Greater Anglia said: “We have been operating a safe service throughout the strike.

“We are undertaking an investigation into an incident which took place after a train arrived at Ipswich station on Tuesday 3 October. We are following all of our usual safety procedures.

“Our stand-in conductors have been fully trained and had to pass safety, competency and medical tests. They safely operated over 500 services on Tuesday.”

The company emphasised that the doors that were mistakenly opened were on to a disused platform and not on to the track – there was no danger to the passengers who got off on the wrong side.

It is understood that incidents like this, although very rare, do occasionally occur during the normal operation of trains. There are strict rules on reporting such safety breaches.

The safety training given to the stand-in guards is the same as that given to the full-time staff who were are currently involved in industrial action on the Greater Anglia network.​

 

[westv]

Sounds like a non event to me.

 

[rd749249]

I’m a driver of DOO trains. I’d love a guard for dispatch but please educate me here because I genuinely don’t understand this. Why doesn’t the driver release the interlocking that enables passengers to open the doors?

 

[Bletchleyite]

2 did apparently.

Crikey, it takes all sorts, doesn’t it? What a mind numbingly stupid thing to do.

I’d have probably pulled the passcom myself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m a driver of DOO trains. I’d love a guard for dispatch but please educate me here because I genuinely don’t understand this. Why doesn’t the driver release the interlocking that enables passengers to open the doors?

They do in a lot of cases and always did on Southern.

 

[alxndr]

It's not only a case of having the adequate training, but also using that training regularly to prevent skill fade. How often do these management grades get to perform guard duties? In other areas of the industry if you haven't used a competance for a long period of time it's not uncommon to either lose that competancy entirely or be returned to "requires mentorship" status.

 

[dk1]

It's not only a case of having the adequate training, but also using that training regularly to prevent skill fade. How often do these management grades get to perform guard duties? In other areas of the industry if you haven't used a competance for a long period of time it's not uncommon to either lose that competancy entirely or be returned to "requires mentorship" status.

They have had all required training very recently for everything bar revenue duties. They are only route learning one particular route so that all narrows it down greatly. It's all been done recently at great loss to all other training on GA which has fallen behind.

 

[HLE]

Local press reporting:

Bosses at Greater Anglia are carrying out a full investigation after it emerged that a stand-in guard, replacing a striking RMT worker, unlocked doors on the wrong side of a train in an Ipswich platform.

The train, from Peterborough, had just pulled in to Platform One at the station. The track has a path on the opposite side from the platform that is used by staff to service the trains.

The guard unlocked the doors on the wrong side, which led to two passengers opening a door and climbing on to the path, before realising the mistake and locking them again before opening them on the correct side.

Although no one was hurt, the RMT said such a mistake could have had “potentially disastrous” consequences – and said all incidents should be reported.

Richard Dean, Train Service Delivery Director for Greater Anglia said: “We have been operating a safe service throughout the strike.

“We are undertaking an investigation into an incident which took place after a train arrived at Ipswich station on Tuesday 3 October. We are following all of our usual safety procedures.

“Our stand-in conductors have been fully trained and had to pass safety, competency and medical tests. They safely operated over 500 services on Tuesday.”

The company emphasised that the doors that were mistakenly opened were on to a disused platform and not on to the track – there was no danger to the passengers who got off on the wrong side.

It is understood that incidents like this, although very rare, do occasionally occur during the normal operation of trains. There are strict rules on reporting such safety breaches.

The safety training given to the stand-in guards is the same as that given to the full-time staff who were are currently involved in industrial action on the Greater Anglia network.​

Source: http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/safety-f...cks-doors-on-wrong-side-of-ga-train-1-5223758

Think I’m missing something here - is there a disused platform the other side of Ipswich P1? All images online point to it being the cess?

 

[dk1]

Think I’m missing something here - is there a disused platform the other side of Ipswich P1? All images online point to it being the cess?

No, just a siding further on. P1 is beside the old fish dock. There's a path used by cleaners watering DMUs.

 

[alxndr]

Think I’m missing something here - is there a disused platform the other side of Ipswich P1? All images online point to it being the cess?

It's cess/a fence. It may have once been a platform, but there's nothing resembling a platform that you could safely step onto.

 

[weastebusdepot]

It's not only a case of having the adequate training, but also using that training regularly to prevent skill fade. How often do these management grades get to perform guard duties? In other areas of the industry if you haven't used a competance for a long period of time it's not uncommon to either lose that competancy entirely or be returned to "requires mentorship" status.

After passing the initial competency, people trained for such duties have to be reassessed every month for the first three months then every three months after that. This is the same as it is for full time guards/conductors.

 

[313103]

With regard this incident and the usual suspects talking it down. If a proper Guard had done this he would immediately been taken off the train, have a mediscreen, have his safety credentials withdrawn, written a report and suspended from duty until a hearing that will either clear him or hang him for want of a better word. Then and only then will he be allowed back on a train and that will be subject to much more monitoring and put on a plan which is reviewed every month. Now i wonder if this individual who was to all intents and purposes strike breaking will be treated in the same way? I would hazard a guess he was in on Thursday doing more of the same thing but not having a wrong side door opening incident.

I once gave a signal to start against a red signal much to my horror. The driver reported it and i was taken off, and went through a similar process to what i have mentioned up above.

So for those who say in a sarcastic way 'Guards never do this' and 'You never hear the RMT when guards do this' that is because if a guard screws up they will have the book thrown at them and trust me i have seen so many guards lose their jobs for not even doing half of what this individual did on Tuesday.

 

[the sniper]

Whilst I don't condone putting the public at risk to "play trains" as you put it, they weren't doing that at all. Regular guards make mistakes too and so have drivers, such as the GTR one, but you weren't complaining and demanding action after each of those were you and neither were the unions. One rule for comrades and another for managers it appears. After day one of supposedly so many issues, I'm sure there would have been action to stop day two if their actions were so dangerous but there wasn't. I haven't heard the RMT calling for an investigation into the GTR driver yet or the numerous other cases of early/unsafe dispatch by normal guards.

Operating incidents by normal members of staff are dealt with as deemed appropriate by the employer. I don't need to 'demand action' against regular Guards/Drivers because appropriate (sometimes inappropriately strong) action will be taken as a matter of course. I've known colleagues lose their jobs for committing operating incidents. I've known colleagues be offered lower grade jobs as an alternative option to this. I've known colleagues who have been allowed to return to their jobs, but have to continue knowing that any further incidents will likely result in one of the aforementioned consequences. Does anybody believe that these acting Guards face any consequences at all...? Committing operating incidents is irrelevant, they have nothing to lose barring any absolute disasters that leave them facing a court case.

As for this GTR driver and the RMT response that you're so enthused by. You know, I think, at some point in recent history, the RMT might have made a bit of a fuss about about their belief that Drivers shouldn't be doing the doors at all... The RMT don't need to call for an investigation because there is no doubt that there will be an investigation and subsequent action taken as deemed appropriate by the company.

Despite your rant, I would be very surprised if any of those involved would treat '....the whole thing as a laugh', nor are they '....high on getting a day out of the office to play trains'. I guess that the various authorities are well aware of the true facts (unless you believe that you know more than them) and will take action if necessary.
There is, I assume, nothing to stop you reporting each and every case that you know about (first hand) and ensuring that it gets properly looked into ?

Who are these various authorities and what action will they take?

 

[Robertj21a]

Operating incidents by normal members of staff are dealt with as deemed appropriate by the employer. I don't need to 'demand action' against regular Guards/Drivers because appropriate (sometimes inappropriately strong) action will be taken as a matter of course. I've known colleagues lose their jobs for committing operating incidents. I've known colleagues be offered lower grade jobs as an alternative option to this. I've known colleagues who have been allowed to return to their jobs, but have to continue knowing that any further incidents will likely result in one of the aforementioned consequences. Does anybody believe that these acting Guards face any consequences at all...? Committing operating incidents is irrelevant, they have nothing to lose barring any absolute disasters that leave them facing a court case.

As for this GTR driver and the RMT response that you're so enthused by. You know, I think, at some point in recent history, the RMT might have made a bit of a fuss about about their belief that Drivers shouldn't be doing the doors at all... The RMT don't need to call for an investigation because there is no doubt that there will be an investigation and subsequent action taken as deemed appropriate by the company.



Who are these various authorities and what action will they take?

No idea, you tell me. Do these people not report to anyone at all ? Do reports about their errors not go to anybody with authority ?

It seems very strange if a TOC has no such procedures.
.

 

[LowLevel]

After passing the initial competency, people trained for such duties have to be reassessed every month for the first three months then every three months after that. This is the same as it is for full time guards/conductors.

So the answer then is 'instead of working trains full time to settle in to a job that can have all sorts of little ways to catch you out especially in terms of really learning your routes once you get out there on your own, they will potentially only have one 90 minute assessment (That's the assessing standard where I work for guards) to get out and work trains per month.'

No wonder they're making mistakes. The first time I was out alone I was shaking when I went to key in (it was a booze up train) and it took me a few days to start to feel properly comfortable without my mentor and as far as getting route knowledge really down hard, passing the assessment is one thing but you don't really get to know the route and work intimately until you've been doing them a while. Especially something long and wending through lots of rural areas like Peterborough to Ipswich.

I had already been a safety critical member of staff before I was a guard as well.

 

[HH]

Have you met the travelling public?

We need a like button. There's nowt so dumb as folk.

 

[BestWestern]

Sounds like a non event to me.

You can be reliably assured that nobody whose view is relevant considers a wrong side door release to be a 'non-event'.

 

[313103]

No idea, you tell me. Do these people not report to anyone at all ? Do reports about their errors not go to anybody with authority ?

It seems very strange if a TOC has no such procedures.
.

Well as you said and i quote 'Various Bodies'. I thought you would of known who they are rather then putting it back for someone else to answer, otherwise why mention it in the first place.

TOC's do have procedures in place for any mishap, however it treats incidents like this differently especially when they are involved in Industrial disputes. This individual will be treated differently then say if i was involved in safety of the line incident.