SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the likely route pecking order to be if it does get as far as an actual strike (ie in what order will the different routes either get axed or really cut back (something like 1 every 2 hours))?

 

[BestWestern]

I’m pretty sure extra DOO isnt mandated, however the RMT won’t just be requesting assurances of a second trained staff member on all the routes that currently have one, they’ll be wanting assurances guards will retain all door duties too (or at the very least DOGC) , which understandably the TOC probably doesn’t wish to commit to at this stage

Why not? If there is no plan to get rid of anyone, why push staff to a dispute? It really is quite simple, a TOC either wants to hatchet Guards or it doesn't. The suggestion that it's worth going through an industrial dispute in order to do nothing more than let Drivers close the doors, and then let Guards carry on doing everthing else, is utter nonsense and quite obviously makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to any intelligent person!

 

[BestWestern]

And Stagecoach had a policy of training up managers at bus operators to be guards, although I believe that fell by the wayside latterly as the threat of strikes receded.

TOCs would train the carriage cleaners and the bloke in the newsagent over the road to be Guards if they thought they could get away with it. The consequences of improperly trained people doing safety critical jobs has of course become very clear recently.

 

[sirjojo]

Why not? If there is no plan to get rid of anyone, why push staff to a dispute? It really is quite simple, a TOC either wants to hatchet Guards or it doesn't. The suggestion that it's worth going through an industrial dispute in order to do nothing more than let Drivers close the doors, and then let Guards carry on doing everthing else, is utter nonsense and quite obviously makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to any intelligent person!

I hardly think SWR are "pushing staff to a dispute". In my opinion, RMT have been way too hasty steaming in when there has been no suggestion from SWR they wish to remove the guard. I certainly don't think SWR would have welcomed this dispute so early in the franchise, but wouldn't be surprised if their attitude to guards has changed somewhat as a result of this ballot, dragging their name through the mud less than 2 months in, is hardly a good first impression, and may well persuade them to have a look at the guards role. RMT don't have anywhere near the clout of ASLEF, yet somehow they have brainwashed the guards into balloting for strike action, no disrespect to anyone, but other than NR staff and drivers, mainly ASLEF members, anyone on the railway can be removed / replaced at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately the railway seems to be 10 - 15 years behind the real world, no company will offer the cast iron guarantee they are seeking their job will be safe for x number of years, the world is a fast changing place, and its about time the dinosaurs at RMT moved with the times like everyone else. It's not worked for Southern guards and if they don't wind their neck in a bit I would expect the same thing to happen, whilst all the time the commuters get the ****ty end of the stick, as usual.

 

[HH]

Why not? If there is no plan to get rid of anyone, why push staff to a dispute? It really is quite simple, a TOC either wants to hatchet Guards or it doesn't. The suggestion that it's worth going through an industrial dispute in order to do nothing more than let Drivers close the doors, and then let Guards carry on doing everthing else, is utter nonsense and quite obviously makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to any intelligent person!

What this basically says is that the only duty that guards do is open and close doors. Guards can undertake many other useful duties, including selling and checking tickets, and giving information, assistance and reassurance to passengers.

Because the SW Metro guards do none of these 'value added' duties is probably why they want to change things.

Does this threaten guards jobs in the long term? No doubt; the same way as driverless trains threatens driver's jobs in the long term. These days we all are subject to the slings and arrows of outrageous automation.

 

[TEW]

What this basically says is that the only duty that guards do is open and close doors. Guards can undertake many other useful duties, including selling and checking tickets, and giving information, assistance and reassurance to passengers.

Because the SW Metro guards do none of these 'value added' duties is probably why they want to change things.

Does this threaten guards jobs in the long term? No doubt; the same way as driverless trains threatens driver's jobs in the long term. These days we all are subject to the slings and arrows of outrageous automation.

Apart from the fact that Non-Commercial Guards do the last 3 'value added' things you listed anyway; giving information, assistance and reassurance. Commercial Guards working Suburban routes also sell and check tickets. I doubt you would get any resistance from the union if you tried to make all Non-Commercial Guards in to Commercial Guards either, I suspect it is the cost of all the increased salaries that has ever stopped that happening, not any kind of resistance from the union.

 

[TEW]

I hardly think SWR are "pushing staff to a dispute". In my opinion, RMT have been way too hasty steaming in when there has been no suggestion from SWR they wish to remove the guard. I certainly don't think SWR would have welcomed this dispute so early in the franchise, but wouldn't be surprised if their attitude to guards has changed somewhat as a result of this ballot, dragging their name through the mud less than 2 months in, is hardly a good first impression, and may well persuade them to have a look at the guards role. RMT don't have anywhere near the clout of ASLEF, yet somehow they have brainwashed the guards into balloting for strike action, no disrespect to anyone, but other than NR staff and drivers, mainly ASLEF members, anyone on the railway can be removed / replaced at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately the railway seems to be 10 - 15 years behind the real world, no company will offer the cast iron guarantee they are seeking their job will be safe for x number of years, the world is a fast changing place, and its about time the dinosaurs at RMT moved with the times like everyone else. It's not worked for Southern guards and if they don't wind their neck in a bit I would expect the same thing to happen, whilst all the time the commuters get the ****ty end of the stick, as usual.

If SWR haven't pushed staff in to a dispute, they have certainly done very little to prevent it. The letters they have sent to staff are full of weird, vague language, inconsistencies and what could be construed as threats. In their latest communication to staff they have admitted that they are exploring options for running the new fleet without a second member of staff in some circumstances. It is far too early to be talking about the companies reputation being 'dragged through the mud', remind me exactly how many days of industrial action there have been? (The company do have a terrible reputation already with the travelling public, but that is unrelated to both the RMT and anything SWR can control really.)

 

[BestWestern]

I hardly think SWR are "pushing staff to a dispute". In my opinion, RMT have been way too hasty steaming in when there has been no suggestion from SWR they wish to remove the guard. I certainly don't think SWR would have welcomed this dispute so early in the franchise, but wouldn't be surprised if their attitude to guards has changed somewhat as a result of this ballot, dragging their name through the mud less than 2 months in, is hardly a good first impression, and may well persuade them to have a look at the guards role. RMT don't have anywhere near the clout of ASLEF, yet somehow they have brainwashed the guards into balloting for strike action, no disrespect to anyone, but other than NR staff and drivers, mainly ASLEF members, anyone on the railway can be removed / replaced at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately the railway seems to be 10 - 15 years behind the real world, no company will offer the cast iron guarantee they are seeking their job will be safe for x number of years, the world is a fast changing place, and its about time the dinosaurs at RMT moved with the times like everyone else. It's not worked for Southern guards and if they don't wind their neck in a bit I would expect the same thing to happen, whilst all the time the commuters get the ****ty end of the stick, as usual.

The RMT asked for an assurance that there were no plans to mess with the Guards' role. It's not a difficult or complex question, the answer is either "yes" or "no". If SWR had no plans, they could simply have said so, and there would have been no issue whatsoever. As ever though, what was recieved were weasel words, intended to try and avoid actually answering the question. This is not the RMT dragging anybody's name through the mud, it is SWR declining to confirm that they don't have the aforementioned intentions. Thus, they have chosen to adopt a position which it was perfectly clear would place them into a dispute. Entirely willful, entirely avoidable.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It might sound reasonable to you, but in no other field of endeavour would it be considered reasonable to seek an assurance that a company will at no point in years propose any change whatsoever to a role. Technology is changing very rapidly and it is completely unreasonable to assume that the same or an enhanced level of safety cannot be delivered in a different way in 3 or 5 years time. It's one thing to have a dispute about an actual proposed change, but this approach suggests parallels with that taken by the print unions in the 1980s, and that did not end well for them.

 

[pompeyfan]

Agreed with TEW, it’s important for people to understand that the company are obviously aiming to run metro in an OBS manner, rather than driver open guard close. The argument is that once the necessity to have them onboard is removed, the next franchise holder may or may not get rid of a 2nd person on every train.

Part of me suspects we’re starting to see the real reason Stagecoach lost the franchise.....

 

[BestWestern]

It might sound reasonable to you, but in no other field of endeavour would it be considered reasonable to seek an assurance that a company will at no point in years propose any change whatsoever to a role. Technology is changing very rapidly and it is completely unreasonable to assume that the same or an enhanced level of safety cannot be delivered in a different way in 3 or 5 years time. It's one thing to have a dispute about an actual proposed change, but this approach suggests parallels with that taken by the print unions in the 1980s, and that did not end well for them.

They only have a short franchise, and in the current climate seeking assurances for those few years in't unreasonable. Incidentally, I read through SWR's passenger charter recently, and it contains an interesting statement that 'all our trains have a Guard during normal operation', or words to that effect. Smacks very heavily of Southern and their infamous list of 'exceptional circumstances'. GWR tried the same thing a few years ago and that triggered a dispute as well. This path is well trodden, and it's very clear that trying to water down Guards' duties by the back door doesn't wash.

 

[Carlisle]

They only have a short franchise, and in the current climate seeking assurances for those few years in't unreasonable. Incidentally, I read through SWR's passenger charter recently, and it contains an interesting statement that 'all our trains have a Guard during normal operation', or words to that effect. Smacks very heavily of Southern and their infamous list of 'exceptional circumstances'. GWR tried the same thing a few years ago and that triggered a dispute as well. This path is well trodden, and it's very clear that trying to water down Guards' duties by the back door doesn't wash.

I agree with you In the sense that the industry really does need to grow a pair of ***** and start being honest and upfront with its employees regarding what jobs are realistically required on today’s modern passenger railway,(only time will tell if Southern got that more or less right or completely wrong) I’ve never been a fan of Mr Grayling or the tories but on this issue anyway at least he seems to be able to grasp the bigger picture.

 

[sirjojo]

They only have a short franchise, and in the current climate seeking assurances for those few years in't unreasonable. Incidentally, I read through SWR's passenger charter recently, and it contains an interesting statement that 'all our trains have a Guard during normal operation', or words to that effect. Smacks very heavily of Southern and their infamous list of 'exceptional circumstances'. GWR tried the same thing a few years ago and that triggered a dispute as well. This path is well trodden, and it's very clear that trying to water down Guards' duties by the back door doesn't wash.

its 7 years.. no company can offer that guarantee to their employee's. how can you expect them to assure they can pay x number of guards 40k per year for the next 7 years? it's not reasonable or practical. as a paying customer, i would prefer a guard on my train, but ultimately my main concern is the train runs and if there is a situation where no guard is available, i would like the option of the train running DOO, as many other services do. As you say GWR tried a "few years ago" and the RMT adopted their default position of "our members are right, end of". What RMT need to accept is the world has changed and the railway must change to, it's no use harping on about the good 'ol days, times have changed, technology has evolved, they need to embrace it or they will be left behind on the scrap heap

 

[Carlisle]

[QUOTE="Carlisle, post: [/QUOTE]

 

[BestWestern]

its 7 years.. no company can offer that guarantee to their employee's. how can you expect them to assure they can pay x number of guards 40k per year for the next 7 years? it's not reasonable or practical. as a paying customer, i would prefer a guard on my train, but ultimately my main concern is the train runs and if there is a situation where no guard is available, i would like the option of the train running DOO, as many other services do. As you say GWR tried a "few years ago" and the RMT adopted their default position of "our members are right, end of". What RMT need to accept is the world has changed and the railway must change to, it's no use harping on about the good 'ol days, times have changed, technology has evolved, they need to embrace it or they will be left behind on the scrap heap

There is no obligation whatsoever for SWR to remove Guards from any of its services during this franchise. They have a government-issued franchise with a clear set of specifications, there is no reason at all why Guards need to be threatened. Running DOO 'if no Guard is available' is completely unworkable, this has been thoroughly examined several times. Your comment about the RMT's response at GWR is tedious and not worth a response, frankly.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I agree with you In the sense that the industry really does need to grow a pair of ***** and start being honest and upfront with its employees regarding what jobs are realistically required on today’s modern passenger railway, I’ve never been a fan of Mr Grayling or the tories but on this issue anyway at least he seems to be able to grasp the bigger picture.

Perhaps the government should be encouraging the private sector to install more decentralised hubs and make greater use of technology, so that we don't have to put up with overpaid whingers like you and many others who think they're inscrutable and think they're so special they're worth more than anyone else.

Get it into your head, once and for all, a guard could be the one who stops you being killed or injured if there's an incident that incapacitates the driver and you decide to do what those clowns did outside Wimbledon the other day and self evacuate onto the track.

We have just been lucky so far in that we haven't had such an incident, but it only needs some scroat to get the timing right with a brick or some lunatic with a rifle/pistol/revolver to take a pot shot at the driver or even for a driver to have a fatal heart attack at the controls and you're on your own, no one is going to answer you on the CFA system, because they're dead or incapacitated.

A guard is the final link in the chain of safety and I would rather have a guard on board than not and if they make them the same as those oinks over on SN have, so that a train can run in the metro area without one then I'll either use my last move to an outer depot or take early retirement.

 

[sirjojo]

There is no obligation whatsoever for SWR to remove Guards from any of its services during this franchise. They have a government-issued franchise with a clear set of specifications, there is no reason at all why Guards need to be threatened. Running DOO 'if no Guard is available' is completely unworkable, this has been thoroughly examined several times. Your comment about the RMT's response at GWR is tedious and not worth a response, frankly.

you summed it up yourself, no reason for guards to be threatened, so why have the RMT brainwashed them into believing they are? I don't know as an outsider, all i have seen is the proposal to run DOO services when NO guard available,to improve the service for customers, have SWR said to its employees they plan to work DOO during normal operation? if not i stand by opinion that RMT have massively jumped the gun, and sold their members way short. how is DOO completely unworkable?, plenty of other toc's do it. And it may be tedious to you, but i'll tell you what is really tedious for me, day after day of threats of strike action disrupting me getting to work, potentially jeopardising my job and my ability to provide for my family, if guards are that hard done by why wouldn't they look for another job? or is it because they are scared of being rumbled for trousering more than a lot of nurses / police etc for doing, frankly not a lot

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Because 444/450 don't have the door buttons wired in or enabled for a starter, 455 don't have any buttons in the cabs, 456's are the only one's that are capable of doing DOO, 458s are leaving either for pastures new or scrapyard, along with the 455/456s.

And if drivers wanted to foul up the system, it's easy and doesn't even need a vote (ballot to do), it's called a RD & OT ban and if they did want to go on a strike over it, then to cause maximum disruption, do it from 1200 to 1200 (that's right midday to midday, not midnight to midnight).

 

[sirjojo]

Perhaps the government should be encouraging the private sector to install more decentralised hubs and make greater use of technology, so that we don't have to put up with overpaid whingers like you and many others who think they're inscrutable and think they're so special they're worth more than anyone else.

Get it into your head, once and for all, a guard could be the one who stops you being killed or injured if there's an incident that incapacitates the driver and you decide to do what those clowns did outside Wimbledon the other day and self evacuate onto the track.

We have just been lucky so far in that we haven't had such an incident, but it only needs some scroat to get the timing right with a brick or some lunatic with a rifle/pistol/revolver to take a pot shot at the driver or even for a driver to have a fatal heart attack at the controls and you're on your own, no one is going to answer you on the CFA system, because they're dead or incapacitated.

A guard is the final link in the chain of safety and I would rather have a guard on board than not and if they make them the same as those oinks over on SN have, so that a train can run in the metro area without one then I'll either use my last move to an outer depot or take early retirement.

i think with your attitude to CUSTOMERS an early retirement is long overdue..
as i said before, i would RATHER have a guard than not, but I don't see how any of your extreme examples could save a passengers life. If the driver was dead / incapacitated, AWS would prevent the train travelling beyond the section and no guard would mean the customers would have to wait a little longer for information / assistance, not really life or death

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m sure the driver that had a medical episode a few months ago at the controls and was effectively saved by the guard (and Off duty medical staff) was grateful his train wasn’t one of those services that was runnning without a 2nd member of staff due to ‘exceptional circumstances’

 

[pompeyfan]

i think with your attitude to CUSTOMERS an early retirement is long overdue..
as i said before, i would RATHER have a guard than not, but I don't see how any of your extreme examples could save a passengers life. If the driver was dead / incapacitated, AWS would prevent the train travelling beyond the section and no guard would mean the customers would have to wait a little longer for information / assistance, not really life or death

Hahahahaha

 

[HarleyDavidson]

i think with your attitude to CUSTOMERS an early retirement is long overdue..
as i said before, i would RATHER have a guard than not, but I don't see how any of your extreme examples could save a passengers life. If the driver was dead / incapacitated, AWS would prevent the train travelling beyond the section and no guard would mean the customers would have to wait a little longer for information / assistance, not really life or death

You're passengers. And perhaps if you treated staff with a modicum of respect and decency you might find that staff will respond in a more favourable manner, instead all you lot do is spit, spit vitriol, rudeness, arrogance and vile language and make threats to them, any wonder why staff don't exactly like people like you.

Just because you pay X amount for a season ticket, whether it be a weekly, monthly or annual one, doesn't entitle you to treat staff with utter contempt and don't say you don't because you are doing so right now. If you don't like the service that's provided, I respectfully suggest that you find another mode of transport.

 

[sirjojo]

Because 444/450 don't have the door buttons wired in or enabled for a starter, 455 don't have any buttons in the cabs, 456's are the only one's that are capable of doing DOO, 458s are leaving either for pastures new or scrapyard, along with the 455/456s.

And if drivers wanted to foul up the system, it's easy and doesn't even need a vote (ballot to do), it's called a RD & OT ban and if they did want to go on a strike over it, then to cause maximum disruption, do it from 1200 to 1200 (that's right midday to midday, not midnight to midnight).

that's not really an argument, how long would it take to retrofit these trains with the equipment? i see the 707's have camera's over each door..
Drivers are a different argument, they hold the cards, along with ASLEF due to the length of training so no TOC will want to **** them off.
RMT / Guards are a far easier target, I read SWR have over 300 managers trained as contingency guards. along with their platform staff who are already dispatch and pretty much door trained, would just need route knowledge to operate as a contingency guard, which i would think puts guards in a far less position of strength than the union would have them believe..

 

[HarleyDavidson]

i think with your attitude to CUSTOMERS an early retirement is long overdue..
as i said before, i would RATHER have a guard than not, but I don't see how any of your extreme examples could save a passengers life. If the driver was dead / incapacitated, AWS would prevent the train travelling beyond the section and no guard would mean the customers would have to wait a little longer for information / assistance, not really life or death

Really, when they realise they're on their own and there's no one there to help, panic soon sets in and the next thing egresses are operated and people self evacuate.

Imagine doing that at night in the fog somewhere like Oatlands (Weybridge), nice deep cutting, not much chance of a phone signal, no street lights, thick fog, live 90 mph lines... Things are going to get messy!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

that's not really an argument, how long would it take to retrofit these trains with the equipment? i see the 707's have camera's over each door..
Drivers are a different argument, they hold the cards, along with ASLEF due to the length of training so no TOC will want to **** them off.
RMT / Guards are a far easier target, I read SWR have over 300 managers trained as contingency guards. along with their platform staff who are already dispatch and pretty much door trained, would just need route knowledge to operate as a contingency guard, which i would think puts guards in a far less position of strength than the union would have them believe..

Mmm. I can tell you now that there was just recently an instance of a strike breaker who operated the doors on the WRONG side of a train. I bet that'll be hushed up & carefully swept under the carpet.

And if you want to alienate people & MoS, you carry on because you're doing a really good job of it right now and it's not helping your cause or argument.

Remember the massive majority of passengers on SWR want the guards on their trains, it makes them feel much happier and more secure.

 

[pompeyfan]

You physically couldn’t run 444/450s as DOO, they’d be out of gauge, and there’s no room in the cabs. Respectfully, there’s an ocean between Platform staff and guards. Yes platform staff know how to use the door controls, and are involved in dispatch but it doesn’t mean they can easily migrate to the role of a guard. Management being used as a guard has proven potentially dangerous recently, and while it’s true those incidents do happen Day in day out by guards, they don’t happen in that volume.

 

[Monty]

hat's not really an argument, how long would it take to retrofit these trains with the equipment?

The 'classic' 450/444 Desiros are not really suitable for DOO conversion as the cabs are already very cramped with little room for CCTV monitors, anyone who has been in a driving cab of a 350/450/444 Desiro will know this.

I read SWR have over 300 managers trained as contingency guards.

That's a still far cry from the 900 plus guards on the company's payroll.

along with their platform staff who are already dispatch and pretty much door trained, would just need route knowledge to operate as a contingency guard

That is hilariously incorrect on so many levels, there is more to guards training that pinging doors open and route knowledge, that said the idea that platform staff (most of whom are RMT members themselves) would act as contingency guards is even more amusing.

 

[sirjojo]

You're passengers. And perhaps if you treated staff with a modicum of respect and decency you might find that staff will respond in a more favourable manner, instead all you lot do is spit, spit vitriol, rudeness, arrogance and vile language and make threats to them, any wonder why staff don't exactly like people like you.

Just because you pay X amount for a season ticket, whether it be a weekly, monthly or annual one, doesn't entitle you to treat staff with utter contempt and don't say you don't because you are doing so right now. If you don't like the service that's provided, I respectfully suggest that you find another mode of transport.

interesting you use the word "respectfully" when you clearly have none for the people that pay your over inflated wages.
i have never had a problem with any member of railway staff, of course i treat them with respect, as they do me, is it that i express an opinion different to yours that i am treating you with contempt? perhaps your examples are borne out of your attitude to your CUSTOMERS not passengers?. what you give out comes right back at you. Which takes me back to my first post about why the railway is light years behind the real world, sorry pal but the old BR like it or lump it days are gone.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You physically couldn’t run 444/450s as DOO, they’d be out of gauge, and there’s no room in the cabs. Respectfully, there’s an ocean between Platform staff and guards. Yes platform staff know how to use the door controls, and are involved in dispatch but it doesn’t mean they can easily migrate to the role of a guard. Management being used as a guard has proven potentially dangerous recently, and while it’s true those incidents do happen Day in day out by guards, they don’t happen in that volume.

I think the last time someone opened the doors on the so called "wrong side" it was on platform 6/7 at Guildford and the doors were accidentally released on platform 7 by mistake. I mean what a cardinal sin, people got off safely and the doors were closed, no damage or anything and then doors were opened on 6.

 

[Monty]

You physically couldn’t run 444/450s as DOO, they’d be out of gauge, and there’s no room in the cabs. Respectfully, there’s an ocean between Platform staff and guards. Yes platform staff know how to use the door controls, and are involved in dispatch but it doesn’t mean they can easily migrate to the role of a guard. Management being used as a guard has proven potentially dangerous recently, and while it’s true those incidents do happen Day in day out by guards, they don’t happen in that volume.

Someone had told me that by fitting external body side cameras onto the Desiro fleet it would make them out of gauge, i wasn't 100% sure myself but if any of the unit's plug doors are open the train is considered to be out of gauge so it does makes sense. Either way, very little room in those cabs...