SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

[cactustwirly]

If the only way to achieve the timetable committed to is to introduce DOO, then they have committed to DOO in the franchise agreement, whether they will admit it or not. I don't think DOO is faster anyway, and SWR do not seem to want to be drawn on the point either, and I don't think the bid journey time reductions are workable in practice anyway.

DCO is faster, it normally takes 30 seconds for doors to be released on a Guard controlled train, it's only about 10 for DCO.

 

[Matt Taylor]

30 seconds to open the doors? Where are you getting those figures from?

On SWR doors can open anything from one second to ten seconds after arrival depending on the train length, and platform curvature.

 

[cactustwirly]

30 seconds to open the doors? Where are you getting those figures from?

On SWR doors can open anything from one second to ten seconds after arrival depending on the train length, and platform curvature.

Personal experience with DCO and guard operated trains with various TOCs.
Maybe it isn't exactly 30 seconds, but DCO is noticeably faster.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I would suggest you are mistaken, and that is on the basis of my professional experience of having carried out around 8000 station stops per year since 2011. I would further venture that an efficient guard can complete a station in under 30 seconds if passenger numbers are low.

 

[74A]

I would suggest you are mistaken, and that is on the basis of my professional experience of having carried out around 8000 station stops per year since 2011. I would further venture that an efficient guard can complete a station in under 30 seconds if passenger numbers are low.

DCO despatch will be quicker than guard. DCO won't have the delay between checking doors getting in shutting your local door then giving 2 on the buzzer and getting 2 back. Probably takes 10 to 15 seconds which over the course of a trip with 20 stops will add up to 3 to 4 minutes which is a significant saving.

 

[TheManBehind]

I would further venture that an efficient guard can complete a station in under 30 seconds if passenger numbers are low.

One thing 458s are very good at. Remember clearing 30s from stopping to wheels rolling on a good day with those.

 

[theironroad]

I would suggest you are mistaken, and that is on the basis of my professional experience of having carried out around 8000 station stops per year since 2011. I would further venture that an efficient guard can complete a station in under 30 seconds if passenger numbers are low.

Well clearly you're very motivated and focused and the majority of your colleagues too.

However, there are a significant minority who take at least 30 seconds, and not just at the odd stop but on a regular basis, to release the doors.

 

[TEW]

Personal experience with DCO and guard operated trains with various TOCs.
Maybe it isn't exactly 30 seconds, but DCO is noticeably faster.

30 seconds. Where do you people get this nonsense from? The current SWR timetable does not allow for such sloppy working. Guards are required to be at their local door at least 10 seconds before the train comes to a halt, and in many cases will be able to release the doors near enough instantly. Where a physical check that the train is accommodated is required it will still take nothing like 30 seconds.

DCO despatch will be quicker than guard. DCO won't have the delay between checking doors getting in shutting your local door then giving 2 on the buzzer and getting 2 back. Probably takes 10 to 15 seconds which over the course of a trip with 20 stops will add up to 3 to 4 minutes which is a significant saving.

Instead you have the delay whilst the platform staff wander towards and then operate the RA equipment. How quickly the train starts moving very much depends on the driver too, some will be off as soon as they hear the second bell, others there will be a considerable delay. DOO dispatch would have the exact same variation. I hear lots of anecdotal evidence of DOO dispatch taking longer due to the drivers taking longer to check the PTI because it is far more difficult to do when looking at a number of often poor quality, small images, when compared to actually standing on the platform and seeing everything in front of you.

 

[theironroad]

Let's not forget what 2 on the bell buzzer is:
Station duties are complete and the train is ready to start.

It does not mean the driver has to move the wheels instantly even though it seems to have become that culturally.

 

[TEW]

Let's not forget what 2 on the bell buzzer is:
Station duties are complete and the train is ready to start.

It does not mean the driver has to move the wheels instantly even though it seems to have become that culturally.

You're quite right, but I do feel it is an important point in this debate. People are complaining that there is too much of a delay with guard operation between all the doors being closed and the train starting to move, that isn't necessarily all because of the fact the train is being worked by a guard.

 

[theironroad]

I think the time lost through a guard having to close a local door is minimal as while I'm not a doo driver, I'd imagine checking 12 little monitors is pretty time consuming.

One irony is that guards who depsatch from a back or intermediate cab via an open window of a closed cab door incur 0 delay for local door use.

 

[sirjojo]

You're always going to get the pro DOO-P lot on railway fora.

They live in their own idyllic world, where they only "work" 9-5 Mon-Fri, have every weekend off, yet they have the absolute audacity to criticise traincrew for having their inviolate right to their days off or to take their leave days especially at weekends because it might mean that their train gets cancelled.

They have no idea what it's like to do shift work, get up at anywhere between 0100 & 0400, one week & then possibly get home at 0100 or later the next and we have to come in no matter what the weather is like too, none of the would have the nerve or skill to do a drivers job and drive at up to 125 mph or more in thick fog at night with the leaves down, nor would they have a clue about how to deal with accidents or failures, go ask one or two to put dets down and see what happens. Could be fun and a busy time for the mortuary or A&E!

What particularly grates with them is they don't like unions for looking after their membership and workforces, I would suggest that they're highly jealous of it, probably because they lack any skill in getting themselves a union to protect them from draconian management & their rights as employees and to get them a decent pay rise each year. All they see is militancy which isn't always the case, sometimes it can be others most of the time it's definitely not, it's just protecting jobs and in the case of the railway the safety of the travelling public, unfortunately they (a significant majority) are so selfish & shortsighted that they can't see beyond the end of their noses.

We'll see what happens when a whole load of people decamp themselves onto a mainline from a DOO-P train and get turned into chunky salsa. Still never mind eh, profits first, safety second.

To address some of your points:

"They live in their own idyllic world, where they only "work" 9-5 Mon-Fri, have every weekend off, yet they have the absolute audacity to criticise traincrew for having their inviolate right to their days off or to take their leave days especially at weekends because it might mean that their train gets cancelled."

only "work" 9-5, thats still 8 hours, plus the time they spend on the train, equates to, in most cases a longer day than you do. And your patronising use of "work" falsely implies that you somehow work hard, how? a lot of guards sit on their ar$e and can't even be bothered to walk through the train, and those that do, it's not exactly back breaking work is it?. Also don't make out we have the audacity to criticise crew for having days off. It's not a criticism of staff for having time off, its frustration at the company for not rostering properly.

"They have no idea what it's like to do shift work, get up at anywhere between 0100 & 0400, one week & then possibly get home at 0100 or later the next and we have to come in no matter what the weather is like too, none of the would have the nerve or skill to do a drivers job and drive at up to 125 mph or more in thick fog at night with the leaves down, nor would they have a clue about how to deal with accidents or failures, go ask one or two to put dets down and see what happens. Could be fun and a busy time for the mortuary or A&E!"

Shift work is what you signed up for, and get your over inflated salary for. Don't start bleating about it now. They don't drive at 125mph in thick fog during leaf season, and how do you know none would have the "nerve or skill" its only training and experience.. as is your other point about accidents and dets, it's only training, you're not rocket scientists. by the way, when was the last time a guard actually had to lay dets?

"What particularly grates with them is they don't like unions for looking after their membership and workforces, I would suggest that they're highly jealous of it, probably because they lack any skill in getting themselves a union to protect them from draconian management & their rights as employees and to get them a decent pay rise each year. All they see is militancy which isn't always the case, sometimes it can be others most of the time it's definitely not, it's just protecting jobs and in the case of the railway the safety of the travelling public, unfortunately they (a significant majority) are so selfish & shortsighted that they can't see beyond the end of their noses"

you summed it up yourself, "it's just protecting jobs" if you were more honest about the REAL reason for these disputes, instead of banging the safety drum, people would have more respect. Suburban services are glorified tubes, there is no need for a guard on them, tell me what is so essential about the non commercial guards on SWR? Commercial guards pay for themselves with the lack of ticket barriers outside the metro area, and long distance passengers expect it. RMT are using SWR commercial guards as they are a big number, and the guards have bought it hook, line & sinker. What actually grates with your CUSTOMERS is the draconian way the unions default to strike action, aka throwing their toys out, when they don't hear what they want. GET IN THE REAL WORLD! the days of union anarchists are long gone, the strike will prove that SWR can manage just fine without guards and only serve to hasten their demise, but they brought it on themselves..

 

[pompeyfan]

I think the time lost through a guard having to close a local door is minimal as while I'm not a doo driver, I'd imagine checking 12 little monitors is pretty time consuming.

One irony is that guards who depsatch from a back or intermediate cab via an open window of a closed cab door incur 0 delay for local door use.

Completely agree, but with some stock is advisable to wait 2/3 seconds just so that the unit(s) knows it’s stopped. Full door release (even when stopped) + poor adhesion = Christmas tree of doom....

 

[bb21]

Locked until I have time to trawl through the mess.

Meanwhile everyone take a chill pill.