Possible dispute over lack of training for GWR staff regarding new SETs

[bnm]

So its not the same then is it? This fact was made known when i had my briefing on Friday.

Dispatch is only one process for which problems have arisen, deployment of the ramp is another. Which judging by the hastily made whats app video which is also incorrect, shows that proper training was not even thought about. If it was as simple as just putting a ramp out then no issue could be made, the convoluted way it is to be done now, could initially (until staff have got use to it) lead to possible mistakes and injuries (note the words COULD and POSSIBLE!) being made. The first i get to see these trains close up and personal is on Thursday and that is just one train in one direction.

Having read the instructions supplied to staff it seems a fairly straightforward process.

 

[313103]

Well at least the RMT and the shirkers who are employed by GWR won't get blamed for this or at least I hope they don't.

1B12 Cancelled
1L51 Cancelled

 

[WelshBluebird]

Having read the instructions supplied to staff it seems a fairly straightforward process.

Even if it was, what on earth is the reason for NOT giving staff the chance to try it on a real unit? Seems utterly stupid to me.

 

[Clip]

Well at least the RMT and the shirkers who are employed by GWR won't get blamed for this or at least I hope they don't.

1B12 Cancelled
1L51 Cancelled

that's a bit of a silly thing to say - all Hitachi issues for the cancellations I do believe

 

[nottsnurse]

I find it absolute madness that an industry that usually prides itself on matters of safety have rolled out a potentially safety critical procedure through an app rather than hands on training.

Working in an industry where "see one, do one, teach one" is the cornerstone to teaching new procedures to staff, the thought of "watch the video then give it a go for real when you get a chance" goes against every concept of safe practice.

 

[reddragon]

The reality is there is little real difference between the class 800's and the class 180 / 220 / 221s that dispatch staff already serve.

These trains will have extra support staff all over them to deal with issues like ramps / doors / failures.

I bet the real concern for staff is that these trains do not really need dispatch staff at all.

 

[Kite159]

The reality is there is little real difference between the class 800's and the class 180 / 220 / 221s that dispatch staff already serve.

These trains will have extra support staff all over them to deal with issues like ramps / doors / failures.

I bet the real concern for staff is that these trains do not really need dispatch staff at all.

Agreed, I can potentially see in a few years time the number of dispatch staff at some of the stations being reduced.

Although for the stations in Wales, Newport & Cardiff are the only ones which see a limited 220/221 service so for the dispatch staff at say Bridgend it will be different compared to a Sprinter or 175.

 

[Sprinter153]

Refusal to work, claiming health and safety issues, is a very risky thing for individual employees to do. Despite what the union says.

GWR's own Safety Management System procedure - 'Safe Stop' - requires staff who are concerned about following established procedure or management instruction due to health and safety concern to report it immediately and not complete that activity until an investigation has taken place.

For someone who apparently has a lot of access to GWR briefing materials and policy documents (though apparently isn't an employee) I'm surprised you didn't know that.

I should add - I've not been fully trained on IETs yet but I'm perfectly happy with the briefing material for my role. The app is comprehensive although a lot of my colleagues really aren't tech savvy.

I believe a lot of the problem stems from Hitachi's provision of materials which is poor.

 

[gallafent]

When 1A03 stopped at Didcot today, the rearmost door was off the platform, but all doors in the rearmost two coaches did not open. Could this be to do with inadequate familiarity with selective door opening on these units? Related, is a ten coach IET really too long to fit into platform 2 at Didcot? It's always felt like a very long platform indeed! …

On a different note re staff / announcements / procedures, there were no announcements that I noticed regarding the availability of food and drink, or how to get it, between Didcot and London, either, and no trolley was apparent (I sat in the rearmost coach, which was slightly surprisingly coach G…).

 

[rebmcr]

And as for it not being political why is it that the Southern strike has lasted over 2 years during a Conservative government reign. Never seems to happen when Labour gets into power, I do wonder why!

Labour-directed TfL gets a fair few strikes too.

Any explanation for the relative length of strikes during different coloured governments can be dismissed with partisan rhetoric and the appropriate direction of spin, for example:

• "Conservatives bravely hold out against greedy union cartels"
• "Unions deliberately strike to embarrass Tory governments"
• "Labour conspire for backroom deals to avoid strikes"

• "Conservatives stubbornly hold out to force their cruel ideology"
• "Unions suffer more injustices during Tory governments"
• "Labour willing to listen and make changes"

I therefore suggest that anyone staunch in their beliefs not try to explain why.

 

[BestWestern]

Well this is actually rubbish because the Class 800s is dispatched in the same way as a Voyager, Class 175/180. Its either the union is kicking off wanting more money for its members. Or the idiot Mickey boy is working with Labour to try and sabotage the launch and blame it on GWR and the Government. I seriously doubt GWR would not follow the rules and otherwise the H&S executive would be onto them!

From what I've heard GWR are very much like an airline and are very strict on following procedures. They even fired a staff member once for not checking a HST door was properly locked.

I'm afraid your post is also 'rubbish'. A Voyager employs a different method of dispatch to a Class 175 or 180. A 175 is two or three coaches long, an IET is likely to be ten. And what do you think the consequences might be of failing to check an HST door is secure?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm afraid your post is also 'rubbish'. A Voyager employs a different method of dispatch to a Class 175 or 180. A 175 is two or three coaches long, an IET is likely to be ten. And what do you think the consequences might be of failing to check an HST door is secure?

Do the BIL lights illuminate on HSTs when a door is not interlocked, or do staff still need to check each door manually?

Also, does interlocking prevent the driver from taking power a la modern multiple units?

 

[tiptoptaff]

There is no interlocking on a HST. The hazard lights go out as soon as the CDL is set to "lock" and this can be done with doors open. Power can be taken while doors are unlocked and you'll often see them pottering around depot like that.

Each door must be checked individually.

 

[Bromley boy]

There is no interlocking on a HST. The hazard lights go out as soon as the CDL is set to "lock" and this can be done with doors open. Power can be taken while doors are unlocked and you'll often see them pottering around depot like that.

Each door must be checked individually.

Many thanks.

 

[Bromley boy]

I find it absolute madness that an industry that usually prides itself on matters of safety have rolled out a potentially safety critical procedure through an app rather than hands on training.

Working in an industry where "see one, do one, teach one" is the cornerstone to teaching new procedures to staff, the thought of "watch the video then give it a go for real when you get a chance" goes against every concept of safe practice.

Agreed.

The trend for app based training is really just a way to cut costs. Learning a practical skill by passively watching an app is very poor preparation indeed. The best way to learn is through practice.

Let’s hope the NHS doesn’t go the same way, although I suspect it might.

 

[313103]

that's a bit of a silly thing to say - all Hitachi issues for the cancellations I do believe

Why? the union gets blamed for everything else, perhaps the RMT sabotaged the air con units so they leaked water, perhaps a union member made sure that the ohl wasnt working for 005.

I thought the trains were owned by a company called Agility or something similar (a previous message up thread mentioned that name) and not Hitachi.

 

[Darandio]

I thought the trains were owned by a company called Agility or something similar (a previous message up thread mentioned that name) and not Hitachi.

Because Hitachi are responsible for maintenance. I suspect you knew that though.

 

[313103]

The reality is there is little real difference between the class 800's and the class 180 / 220 / 221s that dispatch staff already serve.

These trains will have extra support staff all over them to deal with issues like ramps / doors / failures.

I bet the real concern for staff is that these trains do not really need dispatch staff at all.

I do not do any dispatch duties of class 180/220&221s. I only do 142,143,150,153,158,175 & HSTs. i do not even know what these other units are.

Because Hitachi are responsible for maintenance. I suspect you knew that though.

I didn't, i thought they were owned by Hitachi then someone corrected me. Sorry for my ignorance i had never heard of Agility before are they similar to what Angel Leasing is?

 

[bnm]

For someone who apparently has a lot of access to GWR briefing materials and policy documents (though apparently isn't an employee) I'm surprised you didn't know that.

I should have been clearer and said 'unfounded health and safety issues'.

And I only have access to some documents etc. From sources who have to remain anonymous. Provided on the understanding they are not shared, but can be used to confirm or counter statements made on forums.

 

[swt_passenger]

I
I didn't, i thought they were owned by Hitachi then someone corrected me. Sorry for my ignorance i had never heard of Agility before are they similar to what Angel Leasing is?

Agility is jointly owned by John Laing and Hitachi. I suspect Laing are pretty much a financial partner only, someone else may know the exact details.

 

[HLE]

Why is it not surprising?

The safety case buck stops with the ORR and the Chief Inspector of Railways. He's deliberately putting the public in danger is he?

The RMT are manufacturing a dispute by intimating to their members that they've got their back if they shirk their duties because of unfounded fears of the new. Dangerous game with RMT members being used as pawns by their union.

I'm reminded of the ASLEF manufactured dispute at GTR over 12 car trains. That went well for the union. Cost them £250,000 in legal costs when their drivers' refusal to pick up passengers for spurious safety reasons was deemed illegal.

The trains and methods may indeed be safe - however it’s the apparent lack of training for staff to operate them that’s caused the above statement. Two different things.

 

[nottsnurse]

And I only have access to some documents etc. From sources who have to remain anonymous. Provided on the understanding they are not shared, but can be used to confirm or counter statements made on forums.

Of course you do.

 

[bnm]

Of course you do.

Huh?

 

[Bromley boy]

I should have been clearer and said 'unfounded health and safety issues'.

And I only have access to some documents etc. From sources who have to remain anonymous. Provided on the understanding they are not shared, but can be used to confirm or counter statements made on forums.

So you're saying you're privy to, presumably confidential, inside information to allow you to refute the concerns of operational members of staff on this forum, but aren't prepared to state how you came by this information.

Says it all, really, in terms of your credibility!

 

[nottsnurse]

So you're saying you're privy to, presumably confidential, inside information to allow you to refute the concerns of operational members of staff on this forum, but aren't prepared to state how you came by this information.

Says it all, really, in terms of your credibility!

Indeed.

If this were a military forum the Walter Mitty hunters would be out in force.

 

[Darandio]

Huh?

I assume it means that because you cannot divulge your sources, then your countering or confirming statements doesn't really hold any water. Anyone can state they know the facts or argue they are right without backing it up.

It does happen a lot here, only yesterday in the Jacobite rescue thread there was a claim that the news reports were completely false, it's just that they couldn't tell you why they were false. I understand when people cannot speak for confidentiality reasons, in which case i'd prefer them not to bother at all.

 

[313103]

Agility is jointly owned by John Laing and Hitachi. I suspect Laing are pretty much a financial partner only, someone else may know the exact details.

Ahh thank you, i didnt know we had a new player in town. Thanks.

 

[Domh245]

Ahh thank you, i didnt know we had a new player in town. Thanks.

They aren't a conventional ROSCO, they exist solely to provide the Class 800s and 801s on a daily basis. Similar to XLT, which is a similar consortium of a train builder (Siemens) and financing groups to provide the 700s for Thameslink.

 

[FordFocus]

Any excuse.

I'll go with the Chief Inspector of Railways thanks. He's signed off the trains for passenger service.

Glad to see your back with your anti-union posts again.

They'll sign off the trains to see if it meets standards (e.g. meets braking performance) but it's down to the TOCs to do their own risk assessments for dispatch at stations. HMRI and ORR don't sign every small detail off when a new train is launched. A lot of items are passed down to TOCs and their appropriate standards and safety departments to examine and sign off.

Every station has a different layout and it's my understanding these new trains carry some different risks because of their body profile and lengths compared to the previous fleets. GWR not carrying out these checks or briefing staff on differences between stock (considering it's the new pride of the fleet) is poor. Certainly when a Mk1 charter train came to my home depot station recently the dispatch staff had to be briefed on risks with slam door stock.

 

[bnm]

Glad to see your back with your anti-union posts again.

Anti-RMT. I'm a union member myself.

And thanks. It cheers me that you are glad to see me.