GX Brighton extensions

[387star]

Were these previously southern express trains ?

There are still Southern express trains too I believe oddly utilising metro /6 units on Saturdays

Is the GX popular with Brighton to Gatwick passengers ?

Could the capacity be used better ? Services often get delayed at Gatwick for these services ?

 

[Lrd]

(Pic of Woody and Buzz meme with words: Can open worms everywhere)

 

[Bishopstone]

Were these previously southern express trains ?

There are still Southern express trains too I believe oddly utilising metro /6 units on Saturdays

Is the GX popular with Brighton to Gatwick passengers ?

Could the capacity be used better ? Services often get delayed at Gatwick for these services ?

Note that at the moment, a large number of GatEx Brighton extensions (M-F) have been removed from the timetable to make the overall main line service more robust, during leaf fall season. We shall see whether these trains are reinstated in December, or quietly and permanently dropped as per the overnight service.

GatEx is popular with Brightonians heading for the West End, and the Victoria Line for Euston etc. Others are frustrated by the lack of Clapham Junction calls, for connectional opportunities, though there are two Southern trains per hour. One of the Southern services has a strange stopping pattern involving Burgess Hill and Horley, but fast through Haywards Heath and Gatwick Airport.

Personally, if heading for zone 1, I find GatEx more relaxing being non-stop from the airport, whereas East Croydon calls can be a bit of a scrum.

GatEx is lightly loaded for good parts of the day, but in my view that's because of the silly 'premium' pricing policy, rather than any defect of the timetable per se.

 

[samogers]

Currently, there are four trains per hour between London Victoria and Brighton Mondays to Saturdays (off peak)

The two faster services (xx:00/30 from Victoria and xx:18/48 from Brighton) are the Gatwick Express extensions. These call only at Gatwick Airport and are formed of the Gatwick Express Class 387/2s. Prior to December 2015 (?), these services ran as Southern Services (departing Victoria at xx:06/xx:36, and Brighton at xx:49/xx:19), and called at East Croydon and Clapham Junction only. These services were formed of 8-12 carriage 377s, with 10 car 377/6s also being used, and, more interestingly, Gatwick Express Class 442s despite the service not calling at Gatwick.

The two slower services (xx:20/50 from Victoria and xx:28/58 from Brighton) are Southern Services. One train calls at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Horley and Burgess Hill, whilst the other service calls at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Hassocks. Interestingly, all are fast through Haywards Heath. These services are the ones formed of Southern's 377 stock, which can throw up any combination of 4-12 car trains, with many 377/6 units being used, predominantly on Saturdays to form 10 carriage trains.

Personally I think some (not all) of these services should run to Eastbourne or Littlehampton to improve Coastway Capacity and reduce attaching and dividing at Haywards Heath but that's a whole other debate.

 

[Starmill]

Previously, there were (timetabled, rarely in practice) 4 services an hour that just did London Victoria <> Gatwick Airport. They are often 12 car and don't serve anywhere else, and the craziness of the fare structure generally means they are filled to a very low percentage capacity.

Now, two of those services continue to Brighton, so they at least serve a third station. The fares issue and thus the loading issues are still there, but at least two of the services per hour are better use of track capacity than they were.

The peak timetable is completely different, of course.

 

[Kite159]

Previously, there were (timetabled, rarely in practice) 4 services an hour that just did London Victoria <> Gatwick Airport. They are often 12 car and don't serve anywhere else, and the craziness of the fare structure generally means they are filled to a very low percentage capacity.

Now, two of those services continue to Brighton, so they at least serve a third station. The fares issue and thus the loading issues are still there, but at least two of the services per hour are better use of track capacity than they were.

The peak timetable is completely different, of course.

They used to be either 5 or 10 coaches (and before that fixed formation 8 coach purpose built airport express units)

Get rid of the fare premium and those fresh air carriers on the Victoria - Gatwick short workings will soon gain extra passengers, freeing up space on the other services.

 

[Bishopstone]

As an aside, between Brighton and Victoria the GatEx services are generally timetabled to take a minute longer than the cheaper Southern services with more stops. In both directions, GatEx dwells for a few minutes at the airport.

 

[387star]

To complicate further red 387/2s can show up on SN services?

Saw one stopping @ East Croydon presumably on a SN service during the evening peak and likewise there is a morning one that is actually a Southern service to Brighton stopping at the likes of Three Bridges

I also understand a green 377 might do a GX run any pics of this?

also no gx depot at gatwick for drivers yet they base obs at redhill?

 

[Starmill]

To complicate further red 387/2s can show up on SN services?

Yes. They have also worked Thameslink services. Green 377s of several ilks can also frequently work Thameslink services.

White Thameslink branded electrostars in the past have worked Gatwick Express services too.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Absolutely necessary to sort out the fare structure. Back in BR days the non Gatwick Epress trains weren't advertised as stopping at Gatwick and were shown as terminating at Clapham Junction the other way. This got the luggage carrying tourists off the slower and more crowded trains making more space for East Croydon etc passengers.

 

[LA50041]

Green 377s of several ilks can also frequently work Thameslink services.

Thameslink is now a 100% class 700 operated railway, Green class 377's have not worked TL services for a number of weeks now

 

[Starmill]

Are you sure? I saw one only a couple of weeks ago on a Brighton to London Bridge service. And I did check it wasn't the 1558 or 1658 from Brighton which are booked for Southern stock.

 

[LA50041]

Are you sure? I saw one only a couple of weeks ago on a Brighton to London Bridge service.

absolutely 100% sure. The last 377 ran in mid september on TL

 

[Bald Rick]

Previously, there were (timetabled, rarely in practice) 4 services an hour that just did London Victoria <> Gatwick Airport.

You might need to back up your 'rarely in practice' with evidence. Over the quarter century or so when Gatwick express was a dedicated service, what proportion of services were cancelled?

 

[Starmill]

A quarter-century? The timetable when it was ran by InterCity hardly seems relevant now, does it?

I was thinking of the period when I actually used the service, which was mostly last year and earlier this year. There has been some discussion on the matter before, and the service operated at less than 4tph either due to industrial action, engineering work, an amended timetable for some other reason or a shortage of drivers for a very significant period of this time.

 

[Bald Rick]

A quarter-century? The timetable when it was ran by InterCity hardly seems relevant now, does it?

I was thinking of the period when I actually used the service, which was mostly last year and earlier this year. There has been some discussion on the matter before, and the service operated at less than 4tph either due to industrial action, engineering work, an amended timetable for some other reason or a shortage of drivers for a very significant period of this time.

I'm afraid the service didn't start when you started using it, so to make a bland statement that 'previously' the 4tph rarely happened in practice could be construed to be misleading.

When I used it regularly (2003-2008) I never once had a cancellation.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I have to agree with Bad Rick's point here, which is much the same as what I thought when I read Starmill's earlier comment. For most of its existence, the GatEx 4tph timetable has existed in practice as well as in theory.

 

[yorkie]

...The two faster services (xx:00/30 from Victoria and xx:18/48 from Brighton) are the Gatwick Express extensions. These call only at Gatwick Airport and are formed of the Gatwick Express Class 387/2s. Prior to December 2015 (?), these services ran as Southern Services (departing Victoria at xx:06/xx:36, and Brighton at xx:49/xx:19), and called at East Croydon and Clapham Junction only. These services were formed of 8-12 carriage 377s, with 10 car 377/6s also being used, and, more interestingly, Gatwick Express Class 442s despite the service not calling at Gatwick.

The two slower services (xx:20/50 from Victoria and xx:28/58 from Brighton) are Southern Services. ...

I don't agree with the description of "faster" and "slower"; there is not much difference between the company's misnomer "Express" trains and their "Southern" branded trains, but if anything it is the opposite to what is stated above.

Looking at Brighton to Victoria the xx18/xx48 are typically booked to be slower, taking 58minutes.

The company's faster services are often their "Southern" branded trains, which are typically booked to take 56minutes.

See http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=BTN&dest=VIC&odate=20180125&otime=1300&maxres=10&maxch=0 !

This does vary, with journey times being typically up to 1 hour 10 minutes (averaging around 43mph) at peak times on trains which the company misleadingly brands "Express". This is a complete joke; regular users of the true 'InterCity' mainlines into London would laugh at the thought of such a slow train being misleadingly branded in this manner.

Personally I think some (not all) of these services should run to Eastbourne or Littlehampton to improve Coastway Capacity and reduce attaching and dividing at Haywards Heath but that's a whole other debate.

I completely agree that some GTR operated services are a waste of capacity and there should be further extensions of the sort you describe.

 

[yorkie]

You might need to back up your 'rarely in practice' with evidence. Over the quarter century or so when Gatwick express was a dedicated service, what proportion of services were cancelled?

It was a completely different operation back then. Yes 25 years ago it was a decent operation using genuine 'InterCity' stock and remained a good product until around 9 years ago, when the Gatwick Express train operating company was abolished and the service became a part of what was then the Southern train company. Every promise they made was broken and the service was relegated to a lower-priority slower train. Last year the Gatwick "Express" route was revealed as Britain's most delayed route.

The Gatwick Express train service is the most delayed in Britain, it was revealed today...

...All five of the country’s worst routes are run by Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).

 

[Starmill]

Gatwick Express frequently has the worst PPM of GTR's routes. It does not seem to me to compare at all well with other routes in the area. What's more this does not capture the effect of planned cancellations.

The route is like no other that I know of where cutting from the timetable trains happens so readily, and seems to be the most readily of any route in the area. Even today it appears a significant number of trains have been cancelled. I doubt it would even be possible to get the figures that include all of the planned cancellations.

There can be no doubt that there were many moths where 4tph didn't operate, and many more where the disruption to this service pattern was daily and significant, so if my pointing out that that the 4tph is often not the reality could be misleading, then so is advertising a Gatwick Express service as 'every 15 minutes'.

 

[nw1]

Having travelled from Southampton to Gatwick via Clapham (when the direct service wasn't running) several times lately, I do have some opinions on how Gatwick service should be run.

Firstly, I think that Gatwick Express would be better run, not as a premium-fare service, but a normal-fare 'crowdbuster' dedicated to the London/Clapham to Gatwick flow, with all services terminating at Gatwick, thus relieving the longer distance services to the coast. It would be a 15-minute interval service as now with all services calling at Clapham Junction to allow people to transfer from SWR. Indeed, rather than premium-fare, make it discounted-fare if anything to keep people off the longer distance Southern services!

Then, you restore the half-hourly Brighton express with a half-hourly service calling at Clapham and East Croydon only. Gatwick to Brighton could then be provided solely by Thameslink which (IIRC) provides four trains an hour already. This wouldn't involve any new services: you just omit the smaller stops (ie. those other than CJ and EC) from the existing half-hourly Victoria-Brighton non-GX service, which IIRC already have plenty of Thameslink trains.

 

[Bishopstone]

Then, you restore the half-hourly Brighton express with a half-hourly service calling at Clapham and East Croydon only. Gatwick to Brighton could then be provided solely by Thameslink which (IIRC) provides four trains an hour already. This wouldn't involve any new services: you just omit the smaller stops (ie. those other than CJ and EC) from the existing half-hourly Victoria-Brighton non-GX service, which IIRC already have plenty of Thameslink trains.

In the days of the Brighton Express at xx:06 and xx:36 from London, there was a third train per hour between Victoria and Brighton, with a few more stops. Under your plan, as I understand it, Victoria-Brighton would revert to just two trains per hour. I can see your logic, but I think that would be a very difficult sell, politically.

You'd also be stripping Horley of it's fast trains to London, as Thameslink don't call there. Though, if you abolished premium fares from Gatwick, then I suppose you could put in an easement for Horley folk, allowing doubling-back via the airport as an alternative to the stoppers via Redhill.

 

[nw1]

In the days of the Brighton Express at xx:06 and xx:36 from London, there was a third train per hour between Victoria and Brighton, with a few more stops. Under your plan, as I understand it, Victoria-Brighton would revert to just two trains per hour. I can see your logic, but I think that would be a very difficult sell, politically.

You'd also be stripping Horley of it's fast trains to London, as Thameslink don't call there. Though, if you abolished premium fares from Gatwick, then I suppose you could put in an easement for Horley folk, allowing doubling-back via the airport as an alternative to the stoppers via Redhill.

Would there be still paths for this third train? Or has something else now grabbed that path? No objections to this. Not sure why they changed the pattern; to allow more TL services?

Re. Horley, maybe the Portsmouth/Southampton/Bognor services could stop there in addition (as they now skip Redhill they're sped up, so adding in a Horley stop would presumably still leave them faster than before), or maybe one of the two fast Brighton services could continue to stop - if it was the only stop between EC and Brighton the service would probably still qualify as an 'express'.

Main thing I think is using the GX path more usefully, which a non-premium-fare service stopping at Clapham is likely to do - and separating the London/Clapham to Gatwick flow from the London/Clapham to South Coast flow. South Coast services from Clapham are prone to be wedged ATM and it's not easy to carry luggage on overcrowded commuter services. So the GX concept (as in a dedicated Victoria-Gatwick shuttle) is absolutely sound, it's the premium nature of it and the lack of a Clapham stop which isn't.