SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

[HH]

Anyone travelling by train is clearly disposable...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Anyone travelling by train is clearly disposable...

You're probably right. We'll soon see when there's a major incident with a DOO train and numerous people get killed.

 

[Goldfish62]

You're probably right. We'll soon see when there's a major incident with a DOO train and numerous people get killed.

Well, DOO trains have been operating in the UK for over 30 years. The major incidents I can recall involving DOO trains were Ladbroke Grove and Potters Bar and I don't see how having a guard on those trains would have prevented either accident.

I am not an advocate for the spread of DOO, by the way.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

They wouldn't have prevented the accidents because they were down to driver error and maintenance regime errors, but they could still have assisted passengers and done full emergency protection procedures though.

I suppose you're going to suggest replacing drivers as well now? Just remember that they're not going to spend £bn's to do that and even if they did, they'd have to make the system 100% secure from hackers and 100% resilient and like now the electronics will still encounter low adhesion and will it be able to deal with a station overshoot, stop short or multiple passcom activations & egresses being pulled all on its own?

Of course not. The reason I say that is because the British are some of the most ill disciplined, impatient people in the world and we only need to look back a few weeks to what happened at Wimbledon for evidence of that.

 

[nottsnurse]

Of course not. The reason I say that is because the British are some of the most ill disciplined, impatient people in the world and we only need to look back a few weeks to what happened at Wimbledon for evidence of that.

You've either not spent much time outside the UK or are remarkably blinkered.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You've either not spent much time outside the UK or are remarkably blinkered.

When you've been working "on the job" as long as I have you'll have seen a change in attitudes from the reasonable to what we have today which is selfishness & ignorance at the worst possible levels. It makes the Indian railways look positively civilised.

 

[hounddog]

You've either not spent much time outside the UK or are remarkably blinkered.

Are you suggesting the two are mutually exclusive?

 

[Goldfish62]

They wouldn't have prevented the accidents because they were down to driver error and maintenance regime errors, but they could still have assisted passengers and done full emergency protection procedures though.

I suppose you're going to suggest replacing drivers as well now? Just remember that they're not going to spend £bn's to do that and even if they did, they'd have to make the system 100% secure from hackers and 100% resilient and like now the electronics will still encounter low adhesion and will it be able to deal with a station overshoot, stop short or multiple passcom activations & egresses being pulled all on its own?

Of course not. The reason I say that is because the British are some of the most ill disciplined, impatient people in the world and we only need to look back a few weeks to what happened at Wimbledon for evidence of that.

I posed what I thought was a genuine question and got your usual defensive vitriol and insinuations back, which of course I was expecting.

And why are you so obsessed with that Wimbledon incident? It came shortly after Parsons Green. People thought they were going to die. Are you absolutely sure that you wouldn't act irrationally in such circumstances? Personally I'd say of course I wouldn't detrain, that's a bloody stupid thing to do, but could I be sure faced with that situation? No.

 

[pompeyfan]

National rail enquiries and Real Train Times updated with planned schedules. A map also shows where bus replacements will be in operation.

 

[Kite159]

Also available here: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-strike

At a quick glance, buses for those wanting to travel west of Poole or Yeovil, similar buses for Pompey locals, Romsey 6s (I bet those GWR services from Salisbury to Southampton will be busier than normal), Island Line, Ascot - Ash Vale & Weybridge - Virginia Water.

 

[adamello]

Also available here: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-strike

At a quick glance, buses for those wanting to travel west of Poole or Yeovil, similar buses for Pompey locals, Romsey 6s (I bet those GWR services from Salisbury to Southampton will be busier than normal), Island Line, Ascot - Ash Vale & Weybridge - Virginia Water.

we are guaranteeing jobs, salaries and terms and conditions of Guards

Is this not what the RMT have been asking for - it's there in writing

 

[tsr]

A system to count the carriages in is fitted to the entire 377 fleet

Bit of an urban myth.

A 377 can detect the line, platform and side of the train (in certain locations) it is using for selective door opening and correct-side door enabling. It does not count the carriages into the platform.

Stop short and release incidents are unfortunately entirely possible and fairly regular on this stock.

As for 700s, in the present circumstances of manual driving, they can and do have such incidents too. A number of 12 coach units (FLUs) have stopped on 8 coach RLU markers and released the doors.

 

[pompeyfan]

The bottom line of the dispute is that SWR will roster a 2nd member of crew on every train, but want to run trains without a 2nd member if the situation dictates (ala Southern style OBS), RMT want a Guard trained 2nd of crew on every service and that difference is what is driving this dispute.

 

[pompeyfan]

Bit of an urban myth.

A 377 can detect the line, platform and side of the train (in certain locations) it is using for selective door opening and correct-side door enabling. It does not count the carriages into the platform.

Stop short and release incidents are unfortunately entirely possible and fairly regular on this stock.

As for 700s, in the present circumstances of manual driving, they can and do have such incidents too. A number of 12 coach units (FLUs) have stopped on 8 coach RLU markers and released the doors.

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn’t know that, but am glad I do. I’m almost certain that 458s can protect against stop shorts though. It’s odd that modern(ish) stock doesn’t have that ability.

 

[embers25]

Also available here: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-strike

At a quick glance, buses for those wanting to travel west of Poole or Yeovil, similar buses for Pompey locals, Romsey 6s (I bet those GWR services from Salisbury to Southampton will be busier than normal), Island Line, Ascot - Ash Vale & Weybridge - Virginia Water.

You do have to wonder why SWR can run such a comprehensive replacement bus service but GTR/Northern/Merseyrail can't on strike days.

 

[Monty]

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn’t know that, but am glad I do. I’m almost certain that 458s can protect against stop shorts though. It’s odd that modern(ish) stock doesn’t have that ability.

I wouldn't say the system that is implemented on the 458/5s intentionally protects against stop shorts by design. The reason it works the way it does is because the system used on Desiros is not compatible with the trains older TMS.

 

[Bookd]

Is this not what the RMT have been asking for - it's there in writing

As the SWR statement seems to address most of the key points in the argument it is easy to see why RMT will lose such support as they have from the travelling public. There may be more to negotiate but it is hard to see the justification for a strike now about trains that have not yet been built, and will not be seen for years, other than the political agenda to cause maximum disruption.

 

[Bookd]

As a further thought Derek 'Red Robbo' Robinson died today at the age of 90. With due respect and sympathy to his family he did a good job of wrecking the car industry in the seventies and Mick Cash is trying to follow his example on the railway.

 

[The Ham]

First point SWR are not requesting DOO to be used as general practice (and as I understand it, only on the metro services) and so (assuming that DOO is less safe than having a guard on board, which isn't as clear cut as the unions would like it to be) the risk to the travelling public would be mostly the same as most of the services would still have a guard on board. As an example it is safe to cross the road at a pelican crossing, however for the few times that the pelican crossing isn't working due to maintenance issues or power failure isn't going to result in a significantly higher accident rate.

As an example if we assume (all figures are arbitrary but are possible figures)
- 1 train in 100 being DOO (due to staff not being available for that journey, be that due to other delays, staff sickness, or whatever other reason that is) with an average load of 100 people
- 1 in 5 million rate of accidents for DOO passengers
- 1 in 6 million rate of accidents for passengers with a guard on board
Based on 1.7 billion passenger movements a year nationally that would equate to the difference if we moved to DOO vs guards on every train would mean the difference between 340 incidents and 283 incidents. However, if the proposed was brought in it would be the difference between 286 and 283 incidents (assuming 1/100th of all passengers being on DOO trains with all others being on trains with guards vs all trains having a guard)

However even the above is flawed as there isn't enough data to have a clear figure for rates of accidents, the last data I saw from TfL had it that the accident rate for trains on part of the London Overground network as higher than that for the rest of the network where DOO was being use (IIRC one rate was 1 in 8 million). However even then that TfL data could be wrong as just one indecent could then skew the figures one way or the other (for instance guards have an incident near the start of the time period having been safe for 10 million journeys previously whilst DOO has an indecent just before the start of the time period and then run for 8 million journeys before having another and then guards having another incident after 10 million journeys and then the time period ends. That results in 2 in a 12 million time period for guards whilst the DOO would be recorded as only having 1 in that 12 million range). Even then how do you determine if a guard on the train would be of assistance (for instance someone bashing into a closed door isn't going to be more or less injured if there is a guard to see them do it or not).

Then there's the complicating factor of station staff, if they are dispatching a train does their presence change the rate/risk to passengers and is that more/less than a guard's impact on the rate/risk. Likewise lighting levels, are trains run from well lit stations in urban London more/less likely to see an incident than a poorly lit station in the middle of a national park and is that difference more/less if it is DOO vs a train with a guard? Also train lengths can a guard dispatch a 12 coach train by looking from one end as one with cameras at intervals along its length, and how does that change if there is a bend in the platform? (basically even if there was a lot of data there's a lot of variables and has one of those other variables made the difference rather than if there is a guard or not?)

If it is all about passenger safety then where is the pressure from the unions for all guards first aid trained so as to deal with unwell members of public? As I understand it guards are not all first aid trained. Therefore, given that any member of the public could suffer a heart attack at any moment (which is a LOT more likely than even a near related to train dispatch/platform interface), a guard (if first aid trained) would be more likely to save someones life by performing CPR than stopping a rail related incident. In the event of a major crash, which is often highlighted as where DOO would cause multiple deaths, then having as many people as possible who are first aid trained could reduce the number of casualties. Likewise there could be a situation where a guard is on a near empty train and there are no members of the public with first aid training.

Another question, should all stations that have trains of over (say) 6 coaches in length have monitors to help guards and all stations that have more than 3 trains per hour have dispatch staff, would that make dispatch safer? (like DOO or guards I would suggest that the answer isn't as clear cut as some may like) However, assuming that monitors and dispatch staff would help then why aren't the unions calling for these to be standard methods of working as well to make the railways even safer?

The problem is that by striking over what to many people appears to be minor variation over what happens at the moment and when there are other safety issues that could see a bigger benefit to passenger safety is likely to result in passengers not being overly supportive of such a strike. It may even result in passengers calling for DOO as if they have to suffer the strikes anyway at least have the change so that they don't have to worry about future strikes and lack of train crew causing trains to be cancelled so much.

My personal view is that guards on trains are a good thing and should be kept, the above is just showing that the arguments put forward by the unions aren't as clear cut as they would like them to be.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Is this not what the RMT have been asking for - it's there in writing

Sounds like to me what Southern said they will guarantee jobs, pay and terms and conditions but they will be moving to DOO operation. Even if it’s only on the metro services how long will that really last. What’s the point in having a non-commercial guard as an OBS. They won’t be selling tickets by the sounds of it as most people travel on Oyster cards, freedom passes, contactless etc. Why do you think Southern, Southeastern, London Overground etc don’t have a second person on stopping metro services. They’d be better displacing staff onto the stations, staffing them first to last with ticket barriers.

 

[pompeyfan]

So what are the alternatives? Staff do as they’re told, and then come 2022 when/if the franchise changes hands the operator says you’re not needed, you either apply for a different (lesser paid) job, or here’s your P45.

The other argument is that mainline is currently not going DOO but I’d be very much surprised if the Desiros/Piggies/Sprinters aren’t replaced in the next franchise, it’s a much better position to fight from if there’s no DOO in the company at all.

Don’t get me wrong, on paper SWR have played a blinder in terms of PR and have the public on their side by using clever wording.

 

[The Ham]

So what are the alternatives? Staff do as they’re told, and then come 2022 when/if the franchise changes hands the operator says you’re not needed, you either apply for a different (lesser paid) job, or here’s your P45.

The other argument is that mainline is currently not going DOO but I’d be very much surprised if the Desiros/Piggies/Sprinters aren’t replaced in the next franchise, it’s a much better position to fight from if there’s no DOO in the company at all.

Don’t get me wrong, on paper SWR have played a blinder in terms of PR and have the public on their side by using clever wording.

All staff would have to be taken on by the new franchise and only then can they then consult of staff reductions/role changes. Likewise any new stock would take a bit of time to be brought to frontline service. These two things would allow staff to strike between the start of the new franchise and any changes being brought in. In the case of changes to mainline trains that course be very disruptive. However it would likely have the support of passengers (at least a lot more than the current strikes are likely to have) which could mean that they are more likely to change the company's position.

 

[GW43125]

You do have to wonder why SWR can run such a comprehensive replacement bus service but GTR/Northern/Merseyrail can't on strike days.

Define "comprehensive". I'm not looking forward to 400-odd schoolkids trying to get onto one bus...

 

[Malcolmffc]

So what are the alternatives? Staff do as they’re told, and then come 2022 when/if the franchise changes hands the operator says you’re not needed, you either apply for a different (lesser paid) job, or here’s your P45.

Don’t get me wrong, on paper SWR have played a blinder in terms of PR and have the public on their side by using clever wording.

If the guards are smart they’ll use the intervening 5 years to train themselves for a different job/role. They’re hardly the first set of people to have to migrate to a new role due to technological change, and 5 years is a damn good notice period!

 

[pompeyfan]

If the guards are smart they’ll use the intervening 5 years to train themselves for a different job/role. They’re hardly the first set of people to have to migrate to a new role due to technological change, and 5 years is a damn good notice period!

Brutal but to the point sadly. It’s even worse that the only people that will benefit from this technological change will be the shareholders, and that the passengers won’t see any benefit.

 

[infobleep]

National rail enquiries and Real Train Times updated with planned schedules. A map also shows where bus replacements will be in operation.

I wonder how they have been able to create a plan this early?

Govia Thameslink Railway only put those out the day before. Do SWR have more staff in their timetabling department than GTR? GTR's Web Site would say that they were working on the time able plan and de ails would be a lines in due course (paraphrasing). They were saying that after several different strikes had occurred, when they woild have already had plans in place that they could work from, rather than starting from scratch.

SWR and SWT haven't had a strike in a long time, in so far as I recall.

 

[infobleep]

You do have to wonder why SWR can run such a comprehensive replacement bus service but GTR/Northern/Merseyrail can't on strike days.

Wasn't the reason given they could not source enough buses

Perhaps someone has built a load more buses in the mean time or a load are now replaced by modern stock but being kept on for strike duties. Of course they need staff to man them but perhaps they suddenly have the staff or always did but not enough buses.

If GTR did say they couldn't source enough buses and enough buses did exist, maybe the bus companies or their staff lied to GTR.

I'm thinking up possible reasons here that aren't the fault of GTR as it possibly couldn't be their fault.

 

[infobleep]

Sounds like to me what Southern said they will guarantee jobs, pay and terms and conditions but they will be moving to DOO operation. Even if it’s only on the metro services how long will that really last. What’s the point in having a non-commercial guard as an OBS. They won’t be selling tickets by the sounds of it as most people travel on Oyster cards, freedom passes, contactless etc. Why do you think Southern, Southeastern, London Overground etc don’t have a second person on stopping metro services. They’d be better displacing staff onto the stations, staffing them first to last with ticket barriers.

The other day there was a commercial guard on a metro service. Even sold a ticket. I don't think I've seen that before.

 

[infobleep]

SWR state

As part of these discussions we have guaranteed that we will roster a Guard on every train; and that those Guards will continue to be trained in safety procedures

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-strike

So if they are rostering a guard on every train, what is changing? Is it just that in times of disruption they won't roster a Guard?

It would have been more helpful as a passenger if they had stated what is changing.

 

[infobleep]

I see during the strike timetable that there is an improved service from Woking to Clapham Junction during the morning and evening peaks. I.e. there is actually a service and on fast trains too! Wow. Perhaps they should strike more often